Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 12:25pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont understand your dressing room argument at all. Are womens changing rooms communal? Do they not have separate cubicles like they do in mens changing rooms?

Most women's dressing rooms have cubicles. Short curtains, gaps under partitions, open topped.

My point is, do you want your teenager undressing in a confined space with a bloke with a phone?

Yes/no?

Or, if that doesn't bother you; what about when she is out and a bloke is harassing her in the pub. She goes to the bathroom to get away from him.....ooops, now John is Jane and security can't say anything.

Mad_maxx · 21-01-2019 12:25pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yep, it’s been seen in numerous “debates” of late on RTÉ shows like Prime Time - the unhinged individual makes the loony toons look moderate by comparison. I’d have loved to see a “debate” on this issue between Ruth Coppinger and Linehan.

Actuality, no. Now I think about it I wouldn’t :pac:

I'd rather see roe mc dermot.

Every second word out of that one's mouth is "trans"

thebaz · 21-01-2019 12:26pm

How can you have a debate without hearing arguments from both sides ??

But no, here the outraged just want to hear it from one side

jam_mac_jam · 21-01-2019 12:26pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I dont understand your dressing room argument at all. Are womens changing rooms communal? Do they not have separate cubicles like they do in mens changing rooms?

Some are communal yes. I don't think it would bother me but I can imagine some people being uncomfortable with it. I would be more uncomfortable in the likes of a gym changing room where I might be naked. Would I want somebody who looked like a man there even if they consider themselves as a woman. Does that make me a trans phobic? probably. Does that mean I hate them. No.

biko · 21-01-2019 12:27pm

When only one side gets to air their views on TV it's not a democratic debate, it's a one-sided, biased monologue*

That said, I have no clue what a comedian should be doing in that debate, there should be experts and people with facts instead on sound-byters
Also, I am for gender correction where needed - in adults.

* this is how they want it. Only their side gets to speak, and then they can say "sure, we all agreed this is best".

piplip87 · 21-01-2019 12:28pm

It's a debate. One side of the debate is petitioning to get opposing side removed from the debate ? Why ?

I work in social media and I see a lot of teenagers accounts every single day. Some suicidal themed ones and the by line is always the same. *sexuality* depressed self diagnosed.

It seems to be in the in thing at the moment for teenagers to identify as something that's not heterosexual. It's also the thing to have a mental illness associated with this gender.

I would say 90% of these illnesses are made up and are 99% of genders.

There is two genders. Male and Female. If you identify as the other one that's fine two but there is no need for 47 different genders.

Sexuality is the same. There's 4 Straight, gay and BI. and Asexual That covers everything.

This demi sexual, pansexual crap is confusing kids.so much some.of them will self harm etc. Just because you feel different doesn't mean you have to make up a new gender

How Soon Is Now · 21-01-2019 12:29pm

piplip87 wrote: »

It's a debate. One side of the debate is petitioning to get opposing side removed from the debate ? Why ?

Cause only one side of most debates matter on Rte the ultra Liberal one.

padd b1975 · 21-01-2019 12:30pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I am bemused by the fact being brought up on twitter by people complaining about him that he is non-resident.

The same folks were delighted with the "home to vote" campaign during the last referendum.

Good old hypocrisy.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 12:32pm

biko wrote: »

When only one side gets to air their views on TV it's not a democratic debate, it's a one-sided, biased monologue.

That said, I have no clue what a comedian should be doing in that debate, there should be experts and people with facts instead on sound-byters

He's got involved in the debate (as far as I can see, can't speak for the man, know him only from Fr Ted, or the IT crowd) because he's a husband and father of daughters.
And he can see the need to safeguard women, against the type of man who can hijack trans issues for his own perversity.
Very few men are talking about this, because, ultimately it doesn't affect them.
But it affects all women.

This is not about hating on trans people... it's about maintaining the protections for women.

seamus · 21-01-2019 12:34pm

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Remember the good old days in Ireland when no one knew or talked about any of this kinda ****e? That was nice....

You mean when it was all behind closed doors and priests fiddled with kids, women got battered, gay people feared for their lives and anyone who displayed any kind of "non-Christian" sentiment was ostracised by the media?

Yeah, great craic that was.

I'm wide open to discussion that things may have swung a little too wildly the other way, but calls to not include a comedy writer with a stated anti-trans bias on a discussion about trans issues, is not trying to silence anyone.

We need experts to discuss social matters. Not outrage merchants and religious zealots.

Bringing Graham Linehan on for this just goes to show that the "Prime Time" which was once RTE's best effort at a dignified current affairs programme, is going down the path of doing whatever is necessary to get the most viewers. It has no interest in honest journalism.

cian68 · 21-01-2019 12:39pm

Stuff like having "Zey/Zose/Zem" in his twitter profile is just him being quite nasty and belittling trans people. Fair enough wanting to have a conversation about how children are dealt with but I still think he's a prick.

[quote="How Soon Is
Now;109200226"]Remember the good old days in Ireland when no one knew or talked about any of this kinda ****e? That was nice....[/quote]

I'm not sure how nice it was for trans people.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 12:39pm

seamus wrote: »

You mean when it was all behind closed doors and priests fiddled with kids, women got battered, gay people feared for their lives and anyone who displayed any kind of "non-Christian" sentiment was ostracised by the media?

Yeah, great craic that was.

I'm wide open to discussion that things may have swung a little too wildly the other way, but calls to not include a comedy writer with a stated anti-trans bias on a discussion about trans issues, is not trying to silence anyone.

We need experts to discuss social matters. Not outrage merchants and religious zealots.

Bringing Graham Linehan on for this just goes to show that the "Prime Time" which was once RTE's best effort at a dignified current affairs programme, is going down the path of doing whatever is necessary to get the most viewers. It has no interest in honest journalism.

Does he have an "anti-trans bias"?

brevity · 21-01-2019 12:41pm

Is Lenihan’s issue with trans people or just with parents treating their supposed transgender children?

How Soon Is Now · 21-01-2019 12:43pm

seamus wrote: »

You mean when it was all behind closed doors and priests fiddled with kids, women got battered, gay people feared for their lives and anyone who displayed any kind of "non-Christian" sentiment was ostracised by the media?

Yeah, great craic that was.

I'm wide open to discussion that things may have swung a little too wildly the other way, but calls to not include a comedy writer with a stated anti-trans bias on a discussion about trans issues, is not trying to silence anyone.

We need experts to discuss social matters. Not outrage merchants and religious zealots.

Bringing Graham Linehan on for this just goes to show that the "Prime Time" which was once RTE's best effort at a dignified current affairs programme, is going down the path of doing whatever is necessary to get the most viewers. It has no interest in honest journalism.

I HATE the direction Ireland has went in over the last few years i ****ing hate it.

The crap with the Catholic church is a different issue if your abusing people in that manner then you deserve whatever comes to you!

Gay people in general ive no issue with ive proven that enough times threw out my life!

The other crowd who this thread is about well..... There is nothing i could say about them anywhere that would be greeted positively so ya.

seamus · 21-01-2019 12:43pm

ironwalk wrote: »

Does he have an "anti-trans bias"?

Yes. He is unwilling to entertain any discussion on it unless it meets with his opinion, or even show respect to anyone else in such a discussion.

He's probably gone off the rails tbh. In a discussion where he insists that trans is a mental illness, Linehan probably needs psychiatric help of his own. It's an obsession for him at this stage.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 12:43pm

ironwalk wrote: »

Most women's dressing rooms have cubicles. Short curtains, gaps under partitions, open topped.

My point is, do you want your teenager undressing in a confined space with a bloke with a phone?

Yes/no?

Or, if that doesn't bother you; what about when she is out and a bloke is harassing her in the pub. She goes to the bathroom to get away from him.....ooops, now John is Jane and security can't say anything.

You seem to be trying very hard to make up scenarios just so you can oppose them. There is a word for that.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 12:51pm

VeryTerry wrote: »

Spends all his time arguing with no marks on Twitter to the point where the cops are getting involved. That's some seriously sad behavior.

the fact that the police are involved is more worrying.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 12:57pm

seamus wrote: »

Yes. He is unwilling to entertain any discussion on it unless it meets with his opinion, or even show respect to anyone else in such a discussion.

He's probably gone off the rails tbh. In a discussion where he insists that trans is a mental illness, Linehan probably needs psychiatric help of his own. It's an obsession for him at this stage.

I would say he probably represents the majority female position, but maybe not the position of all woke males.

In any case he, as far as I remember, got into this when some transwoman in Canada started to demand that asian beauty parlours wax her balls. Graham thought that that was a bit much.

I agree that he's a bit aggressive on twitter, its surprising to see someone so doctrinaire left take this stance, he is to be applauded for actually having some thoughts outside his group think.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 12:58pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

You seem to be trying very hard to make up scenarios just so you can oppose them. There is a word for that.

Do I?
Making up scenarios?
Quick Google search....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/peeping-tom-pervert-secretly-filmed-7897266

More where that came from.

In any case, let's not get diverted down side alleys. Graham Linehan seems to be one of the few men who is prepared to see how trans rights can be manipulated by abusive men.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:08pm

ironwalk wrote: »

Do I?
Making up scenarios?
Quick Google search....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/peeping-tom-pervert-secretly-filmed-7897266

More where that came from.

In any case, let's not get diverted down side alleys. Graham Linehan seems to be one of the few men who is prepared to see how trans rights can be manipulated by abusive men.

that was a man in unisex changing rooms. How is that relevant?

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:09pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I would say he probably represents the majority female position, but maybe not the position of all woke males.

In any case he, as far as I remember, got into this when some transwoman in Canada started to demand that asian beauty parlours wax her balls. Graham thought that that was a bit much.

I agree that he's a bit aggressive on twitter, its surprising to see someone so doctrinaire left take this stance, he is to be applauded for actually having some thoughts outside his group think.

So you applaud him for having thoughts that match your own? and you complain about group think.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 1:12pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So you applaud him for having thoughts that match your own? and you complain about group think.

No. I applaud him for dissenting from group think. Here is how I would phrase what you think I said.

"I applaud him for having thoughts that match my own".

But I didn't say that, did I?

Enough straw man tactics.

As for my beliefs, they are strongly economically leftist but this nonsense is just the epitome of capitalist ideology, the belief that people can be what they want to be by just saying they are.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:13pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No. I applaud him for dissenting from group think. Here is how I would phrase what you think I said.

"I applaud him for having thoughts that match my own".

But I didn't say that, did I?

Enough straw man tactics.

As for my beliefs, they are strongly economically leftist but this nonsense is just the epitome of capitalist ideology, the belief that people can be what they want to be by just saying they are.

So his beliefs DO match yours then.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 1:18pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So his beliefs DO match yours then.

Yes his beliefs match mine on this particular topic ( in as much as I know his beliefs) but so what? Why don't you argue on the substantive points rather than your typical playing the man.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 1:23pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that was a man in unisex changing rooms. How is that relevant?

It's relevant because when we discuss trans rights, most of us think in terms of kindness.
How awful it must be to feel that you were born in the wrong body; how difficult it must be to hide that part of yourself every day, to never feel that you fit in.
Our compassion is activated.
When our compassion is activated, we have to be very careful that manipulative people don't use it to meet their ends.

That why you see the bully who is called out, dissolve into tears and attempt to divert from their behaviour by playing the victim card.

In this instance, trans rights activate our compassion. Fair enough, as it should be.

But there is a small subset of men, who will manipulate the situation to predate on women.
E.G. peeping tom cameras under changing room curtains.

That's why my example is relevant.

There are peeping toms, "women of the year" who work in finance and wear a suit-and-tie for half the week, and fishnets the other half. There are "women" who want beauticians to wax their ballsacks and take legal action when beauticians refuse on the grounds that they're not qualified, closing the beautician's business. There are men who hate women, pure and simple.

That's why it's relevant.
As far as I can see, that's what Linehan is on about.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:24pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Yes his beliefs match mine on this particular topic ( in as much as I know his beliefs) but so what? Why don't you argue on the substantive points rather than your typical playing the man.

What are the substantive points? they seem to boil down to "wont somebody please think of the children". You seem to think he is brave but in reality he has just decided to be a **** to a small group of people and you think that is wonderful.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 1:25pm

Discussion on Mumsnet

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3484315-Glinner-invited-on-Primetime-Irish-Newspanel-show

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-01-2019 1:28pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What are the substantive points? they seem to boil down to "wont somebody please think of the children". You seem to think he is brave but in reality he has just decided to be a **** to a small group of people and you think that is wonderful.

You might want to read what plenty of women think about self identification, for example in mumsnet. There are plenty of issues where biological women feel threatened.

As for the children, we should most definitely protect children from life changing surgery or hormones that could affect their later development.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:30pm

ironwalk wrote: »

It's relevant because when we discuss trans rights, most of us think in terms of kindness.
How awful it must be to feel that you were born in the wrong body; how difficult it must be to hide that part of yourself every day, to never feel that you fit in.
Our compassion is activated.
When our compassion is activated, we have to be very careful that manipulative people don't use it to meet their ends.

That why you see the bully who is called out, dissolve into tears and attempt to divert from their behaviour by playing the victim card.

In this instance, trans rights activate our compassion. Fair enough, as it should be.

But there is a small subset of men, who will manipulate the situation to predate on women.
E.G. peeping tom cameras under changing room curtains.

That's why my example is relevant.

There are peeping toms, "women of the year" who work in finance and wear a suit-and-tie for half the week, and fishnets the other half. There are "women" who want beauticians to wax their ballsacks and take legal action when beauticians refuse on the grounds that they're not qualified, closing the beautician's business. There are men who hate women, pure and simple.

That's why it's relevant.
As far as I can see, that's what Linehan is on about.

There will always be perverts who exploit any situation.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:30pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You might want to read what plenty of women think about self identification, for example in mumsnet. There are plenty of issues where biological women feel threatened.

As for the children, we should most definitely protect children from life changing surgery or hormones that could affect their later development.

If mumsnet is your standard for how we should think about anything then you're ****ed.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 1:35pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

There will always be perverts who exploit any situation.

You are completely correct....so , I imagine, you support women's concerns that their rights to privacy are not reduced to accommodate trans rights.

ohnonotgmail · 21-01-2019 1:36pm

ironwalk wrote: »

You are completely correct....so , I imagine, you support women's concerns that their rights to privacy are not reduced to accommodate trans rights.

their rights to privacy are not being reduced.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 1:43pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

their rights to privacy are not being reduced.

Yes, they are.

seamus · 21-01-2019 1:46pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I would say he probably represents the majority female position, but maybe not the position of all woke males.

You think most women are anti-trans?

paw patrol · 21-01-2019 1:51pm

seamus wrote: »

You mean when it was all behind closed doors and priests fiddled with kids, women got battered, gay people feared for their lives and anyone who displayed any kind of "non-Christian" sentiment was ostracised by the media?

.

complaining about the state of modern Ireland or a section of it can't be countered by a catholic church argument.
such an idiotic argument.

one does not corelate to the other.

freshpopcorn · 21-01-2019 1:53pm

From the ad for this program he does seem over the top. I'm not into conspiracy theories but I wonder will RTE have a well spoken speaking in favor of this and him to come across bad!

Dial Hard · 21-01-2019 1:56pm

ironwalk wrote: »

You are completely correct....so , I imagine, you support women's concerns that their rights to privacy are not reduced to accommodate trans rights.

Trans rights have absolutely nothing to do with opportunistic male perverts/predators and it's complete and utter nonsense to try and conflate them.

Gravelly · 21-01-2019 1:57pm

Linehan is as unpleasant a character as you are likely to meet, and has a ridiculously high opinion of himself, but like a stopped clock, he happens to be right on this issue. It is hilarious that he, a man who is obsessed with no-platforming people he disagrees with, is the object of no-platforming attempts by the very people who used to support him.

AlphabetCards · 21-01-2019 2:01pm

seamus wrote: »

You think most women are anti-trans?

I get the impression they are. Ask how many are comfortable sharing a dressing room with a pre-op trans woman.

JohnnyFlash · 21-01-2019 2:04pm

Most of the old school feminists like Greer etc would agree with Lenihan as well. This is the topic on which the good ship Liberalism will flounder.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 2:04pm

Dial Hard wrote: »

Trans rights have absolutely nothing to do with opportunistic male perverts/predators and it's complete and utter nonsense to try and conflate them.

Trans rights are a separate issue, one that I support.
However, it is naive to imagine that "opportunistic male perverts/predators" will not exploit the loophole offered when women's spaces are expanded to encompass trans women.

It is not nonsense.
It's the epitome of common sense to see potential problems and address them as they arise.

That is why we must hold the rights of women in one hand while we discuss trans rights in the other.

Richard Hillman · 21-01-2019 2:04pm

Bruce Jenner was the worst thing to happen for Trans people. There was growing acceptance of "it's your business, it doesn't affect me, good luck". Then when Bruce Jenner killed somebody, had a meltdown and decided that he wasn't a man any more, the media class and Aggressive LBGTXYZ activist's pushed it so hard that their Ying turned into Yang.

The hole thing has turned into a monster, to a state of where "it's your business, it doesn't affect me" is gone. Special toilets, aggressive stand offs, the rewriting of science, the indoctrination of children to believe that there are more than 2 sexes, get your house in order or there will be a lot more Yang to your Ying.

seamus · 21-01-2019 2:05pm

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I get the impression they are. Ask how many are comfortable sharing a dressing room with a pre-op trans woman.

Funnily enough, I get the exact opposite impression. I find the majority of people positing the "pervert in the changing room" boogeyman are men.

My impression is that women are in general quite uncomfortable and self-conscious in shared dressing rooms, regardless of who else is in there.

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 2:07pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by seamus You think most women are anti-trans?

AlphabeCards I get the impression they are. Ask how many are comfortable sharing a dressing room with a pre-op trans woman.

How has it got to the point that being concerned with woman's right is now equivalent to being "anti-trans".

It isn't.
Women can be concerned with more than one thing at a time. We can be concerned about our sons who want to transition to being trans women, while at the same time, wanting to retain rights and privacy for our daughters.

Dial Hard · 21-01-2019 2:08pm

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I get the impression they are. Ask how many are comfortable sharing a dressing room with a pre-op trans woman.

I can only speak for myself, but it wouldn't bother me in the least. Same as I have no issue sharing unisex bathrooms with men.

Will I Am Not · 21-01-2019 2:11pm

I used to like Irish Simpsons Fans Facebook group until they deleted this, because it was offensive and they hate Linehan anyway.

beans · 21-01-2019 2:14pm

Will I Am Not wrote: »

I used to like Irish Simpsons Fans Facebook group until they deleted this...

Hard to not read that in his voice

Dyr · 21-01-2019 2:20pm

There's a kind of rich irony in seeing Linehans own side turn on him like a pack of wild dogs for wrong think

Solidarity comrades lol

ironwalk · 21-01-2019 2:20pm

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I get the impression they are. Ask how many are comfortable sharing a dressing room with a pre-op trans woman.

Dial Hard wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, but it wouldn't bother me in the least. Same as I have no issue sharing unisex bathrooms with men.

Dial, my elderly mother would get a start and would probably apologise, imagining that she had wandered into the wrong changing room. It would bother her. She wouldn't be able to wander around the dressing room.

There are lots of women who are from non-Christian religious backgrounds who would have a problem with using a changing room or bathroom with men.

I'd have a problem with my teenager sharing with a teenage male-bodied person, in a dressing room, or a Scout tent, or a bathroom etc etc etc.

It may not bother some women, but let's not throw the rest under the bus.

Dial Hard · 21-01-2019 2:23pm

ironwalk wrote: »

It may not bother some women, but let's not throw the rest under the bus.

Hence my extremely clear caveat that I was speaking only for myself. What part of that did you find confusing?

Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

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