Replacment for Cessna 172

Negative_G · 07-05-2021 9:16pm

The learjet was acquired as a King Air replacement, albeit ahead of time but it was a quick purchase in late 2003 in advance of Ireland taking up the EU Presidency in Jan 2004.

It was bought to supplement the G4 really for the short haul stuff around Europe which the King Air wasn't entirely suitable.

The "sale" of the G4 wasnt even remotely on the horizon when the Learjet was purchased.

Markcheese · 08-05-2021 7:17pm

How does it work when the Air corp have 1 of a type of aircraft ? Pilot wise I mean , do they have pilots who are certified on multiple different types of plane ?
They hardly have pilots who are just certified on say the Lear jet ?
So having another casa just in a transport role would be more efficient in terms of crew and servicing -

Stovepipe · 08-05-2021 8:24pm

The pilots are either fixed wing or rotary for their operational period on an aircraft so a pilot will start on the PC-9, may do a period as an instructor on same and may then be directed to whichever type has a slot available. that is, if a need for a copilot on the Casa arises, he or she will be trained up and fitted into that slot. A pilot could also be trained up as a type examiner,deal with recurrency or training up new people or even be tasked with post maintenance test flights and so on. AC pilots also have ground roles, such as ground instructors or hold military posts such as a unit gunnery officer or an administrative role dealing with flying. It's quite varied, which is one of the appealing things about military flying.

roadmaster · 08-05-2021 8:48pm

Stovepipe wrote: »

The pilots are either fixed wing or rotary for their operational period on an aircraft so a pilot will start on the PC-9, may do a period as an instructor on same and may then be directed to whichever type has a slot available. that is, if a need for a copilot on the Casa arises, he or she will be trained up and fitted into that slot. A pilot could also be trained up as a type examiner,deal with recurrency or training up new people or even be tasked with post maintenance test flights and so on. AC pilots also have ground roles, such as ground instructors or hold military posts such as a unit gunnery officer or an administrative role dealing with flying. It's quite varied, which is one of the appealing things about military flying.

Would there be many pilots that just want to fly and have no interest in promotion and would happy left on one aircraft type or would they even get a choice?

Stovepipe · 09-05-2021 11:06am

roadmaster wrote: »

Would there be many pilots that just want to fly and have no interest in promotion and would happy left on one aircraft type or would they even get a choice?

No. There were one or two in my time who were not "destined for higher office" by choice or by not being suited (suited is a very wide ranging word. More than a few were promoted above their ability because of the nature of the hierarchical system ) for command outside of an aircraft cockpit. Good pilots but zero interest in going to Staff College, so their careers would be limited. They couldn't be promoted beyond Commandant if they didnt show willing to do overseas trips, undergo Military courses and so on, so they'd be invited to take their talents elsewhere. Up or out. Most Militaries are the same. The last thing they want is some guy who's a perpetual Captain,last to be promoted, hanging around,condemned to doing mundane stuff until he dies or retires. The further up the food chain you do go, the less flying you do. If all you want to do is fly, become a Commercial pilot and do it outside.

Stovepipe · 09-05-2021 11:15am

Airlines are the same, by the way. When a young FO joins, he or she is expected to progress to Command as he or she accumulates flying hours and experience. They are also expected to move into Training slots such Type Rated Instructor or Type Rated Examiner (TRI/TRE) or take on other Fleet/safety/training functions and gaining further qualifications is encouraged. They don't want perpetual FOs,sitting there,making no effort to move up or take on other roles so they are often weeded out by management. Same goes for other roles. If you are not showing sufficient interest, you will be pushed out.

punchdrunk · 09-05-2021 11:54am

Stovepipe wrote: »

No. There were one or two in my time who were not "destined for higher office" by choice or by not being suited (suited is a very wide ranging word. More than a few were promoted above their ability because of the nature of the hierarchical system ) for command outside of an aircraft cockpit. Good pilots but zero interest in going to Staff College, so their careers would be limited. They couldn't be promoted beyond Commandant if they didnt show willing to do overseas trips, undergo Military courses and so on, so they'd be invited to take their talents elsewhere. Up or out. Most Militaries are the same. The last thing they want is some guy who's a perpetual Captain,last to be promoted, hanging around,condemned to doing mundane stuff until he dies or retires. The further up the food chain you do go, the less flying you do. If all you want to do is fly, become a Commercial pilot and do it outside.

There’s a case to be made for introducing warrant officer pilots (such as in the British Army Air Corps)
But I don’t think it would be warmly received in the IAC

Stovepipe · 09-05-2021 8:36pm

NCO pilots is a hardy perennial that crops up but it will never happen as long as there are enough Officers being generated to fly. If it was a big air arm,you could argue the case but it's not. As has been shown,they would rather reintroduce retired or resigned officers and pay the going rate than start training up NCOs. It's got nothing to do with ability to fly aircraft. It's all about Command.

jonnybigwallet · 09-05-2021 9:31pm

Very interesting insights and opinions!

Larbre34 · 10-05-2021 2:23am

Dohvolle wrote: »

I guess the reason we see it in army NCO pilots is their aircraft fit in to a different structure. The aircraft there is not the unit, it is the weapon.

Well put.

I do think there needs to be a revolution in global thinking around pilots though. This 'pilot officer' snobbery dates back to WWI when enlisted men were regarded as idiots and in point of fact literacy and numeracy was low. Now all modern militaries have highly technically trained and educated enlisted personnel.

Why should the guy or girl be able to dismantle and reassemble an aircraft but be precluded from doing something as comparitively simple as fly the thing?

In the case of the AC, the unit should be the squadron and the aircraft no different than a truck or an APC. Long way to go for that I guess.

marketty · 10-05-2021 7:11am

If they can't get qualified pilots to stick around on a Captain's salary they certainly won't do it on a Sergeant's

The Black Oil · 17-08-2021 9:39pm

Sorry if I've the wrong thread for this.

https://twitter.com/IrishAirCorps/status/1427642561431228422

punchdrunk · 18-08-2021 12:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769176#Comment_117769176

The timing of this “oh look, Airbus sent us a few photos!” is hilarious, Nothing to do with the avalanche of negative commentary online after abandoning a couple of dozen of our fellow countrymen and women in AFG then??

sparky42 · 18-08-2021 12:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769725#Comment_117769725

Above the pay grade of the Air Corps…

roadmaster · 18-08-2021 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769725#Comment_117769725

An to highlight it more Cathal Berry just on RTE proposing deployment of rangers to get them and it was mentioned the rangers have no taxi to get them there!!!

punchdrunk · 19-08-2021 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769747#Comment_117769747

Not if you invest in them properly!

donvito99 · 28-11-2021 3:10pm

The original, non grey PC-12 was (very) low over the South city this afternoon, any (public domain) ideas why?

Larbre34 · 30-11-2021 11:50pm

On approach to Baldonnel?

You'd often see low approaches anywhere from Dun Laoghaire to Dundrum to Tallaght for runway 28 at the Don, especially with the wind in the NW, which it was for the last few days.

donvito99 · 02-12-2021 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248572#Comment_118248572

No this was inside the canals, flying east to west, essentially down Cuffe St.

Larbre34 · 02-12-2021 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118257920#Comment_118257920

I see.

Could have been a training or calibration flight on the surveillance equipment, or even an ACP sortie.

roadmaster · 06-12-2021 12:59pm

Looking at FR24 i see IRL 280 coming back from germany. The PC12's seam to be good value for money for the useage they are getting

Stovepipe · 07-12-2021 1:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117769176#Comment_117769176

this is the point in the build contract where the second last cheque has been cashed and the airframe will go to the Irish. Manufacturers tend to get paid in stages. This is one of them.

Stovepipe · 07-12-2021 1:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118277600#Comment_118277600

Now , now,that's just being cynical. Four pilots to move a few boxes that could fit in a small Transit van. You'd swear somebody might have an ulterior motive.

Manic Moran · 13-01-2022 3:40pm

Flight hour requirements are a thing, even in the US. We've received some odd aircraft just so some folks could make the hours. I remember asking for a Nevada C-130 to move us from one end of Nevada (Where they were based) to the other end of Nevada for a weekend. We got a C-130 from North Carolina which needed more hours, so they flew empty trans-continental, and they got a weekend in Vegas out of it.

Larbre34 · 14-03-2022 10:36pm

In celebration of the Air Corps Centenary which occurs in 2022, the original additional PC-12, 280, has finally been repainted, in a WWII emergency commemorative colour scheme. The scheme and roundel echoes that of the period Coastal Patrol Squadron based at Shannon, comprised of Avro Ansons, Lockheed Hudson and Supermarine Walrus flying boats.

Images © Air Corps Instagram

sparky42 · 14-03-2022 10:40pm

That actually looks really good.

jonnybigwallet · 15-03-2022 10:15am

Looks great!

donvito99 · 15-03-2022 11:20am

They should have gone the whole hog and reliveried the whole thing.

jonnybigwallet · 15-03-2022 12:09pm

Ya might be right. Still, it's the way they do things I guess...half measures!

Larbre34 · 15-03-2022 12:36pm

I think the deliberate blend is an appropriate nod from the contemporary to the historic. Makes it more of a talking point for a lay audience and those with a passing interest.

Leonidas BL · 15-03-2022 8:23pm

Gorgeous!!

tippilot · 16-03-2022 12:47am

I'm not against the blend of both schemes but I must say I'm not loving the serrated crossover.

Larbre34 · 16-03-2022 1:42am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-40829183.html

No other suitable thread, sorry. Sparky had alluded to this the other day.

Govt has leased a Citation CJ3 as concern about the availability of the Lear grows.

(Insert eyeroll emoji at Irish Examiner using a picture of long defunct G.4 251.)

tippilot · 16-03-2022 11:45am

It looks like they are assuming this will be a highly unpopular but necessary acquisition and they are leaking the negative aspects of the current situation before a tender is issued.

The common sense direct replacement for the Lear is the PC 24 but there may be an opportunity to get something with longer legs and more capacity.

sparky42 · 16-03-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793174#Comment_118793174

True, though I can well imagine the political costs of trying to buy a new jet in the midst of Post Crash Ireland…

roadmaster · 16-03-2022 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794298#Comment_118794298

Thats where you could sell a A320 Neo or 737 Max multi mission. Gov jet, Medical rescue, Citzen Rescue ,Refugee rescue, Aid delivery.

sparky42 · 16-03-2022 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118794440#Comment_118794440

Didn’t they try that during Bertie’s time?

Larbre34 · 16-03-2022 5:39pm

They did indeed, there is a desk model of an A320 mocked up in Air Corps colours gathering dust somewhere.

Geopolitical circumstances are a million miles from what they were in Bertie's time. Both the Kabul farce and the refugee exodus, and our involvement with both, as well as very convoluted resupply and repatriation missions to our DF personnel in remote locations, has shown up a glaring need for a narrow body, extended range aircraft with a capacity for ~100, to include options for medevac, light logistics and VIP.

Ideally we need both that and a tactical airlifter immediately. But for this matter, the Government should immediately issue an RFQ in Europe for extended dry lease of an A320/21 or 737, wet lease if necessary. There are multiple Irish leasing companies that are suffering badly after the mess of the last two years and the opportunity for a mutually beneficial arrangement is there.

Options to purchase can be looked at later in the context of LOA decisions to be taken in due course.

I hate to take advantage of circumstances in a cynical way, but on days where Ryanair are ramping up prices from Poland to Ireland for people fleeing Ukraine, I think the people of this Country would absolutely support the Air Corps having the capacity to go and ferry people back who already have connections here and host families to go to.

Larbre34 · 16-03-2022 10:55pm

Makes sense.

California Dreamer · 23-03-2022 9:46pm

Michaél Martin to travel from Washington to Brussels tonight for an EU meeting tomorrow.

A Netjets special or United out of IAD tonight?

https://www.independent.ie/news/micheal-martin-to-leave-us-and-attend-tomorrows-eu-council-meeting-41480388.html

Larbre34 · 23-03-2022 10:56pm

No, he's coming to Ireland first. His people consulted with Aer Lingus on managing his travel.

Replacment for Cessna 172

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