Electric Vehicles / Classics

unkel · 29-02-2020 10:33pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

I agree that some people believe they do no harm but in a life cycle analysis, they emit less than a petrol or diesel car. They are for sure better for the planet than petrol and diesel cars, and it must be noted that their life emissions can improve as the electricity share from the grid decarbonises.

And this is already further improved than some people think. Nearly all EVs in this country are charged at night at the cheap night rate. 50% of all electricity produced in Ireland last year during this time is from wind. So renewable and zero emissions. This year it will be substantially more again.

Personally I try and charge my car from my large solar PV install too when I can

Isambard · 29-02-2020 10:52pm

unkel wrote: »

And this is already further improved than some people think. Nearly all EVs in this country are charged at night at the cheap night rate. 50% of all electricity produced in Ireland last year during this time is from wind. So renewable and zero emissions. This year it will be substantially more again.

Personally I try and charge my car from my large solar PV install too when I can

um no, the turbines production has a carbon footprint, as does their transport.

marcos_94 · 29-02-2020 11:10pm

Isambard wrote: »

um no, the turbines production has a carbon footprint, as does their transport.

It takes under a year for an operational wind fame to have displaced the same amount of co2 as was created during manufacturing, transport, and installation.

https://www.saskwind.ca/blogbackend

Seweryn · 29-02-2020 11:22pm

Isambard wrote: »

um no, the turbines production has a carbon footprint, as does their transport.

Not just that, but their EROI is very low, often below economical threshold. That's why the energy generated by them is so expensive.

Also, there is a huge problem with recycling of the turbines at the end of their lifespan, especially the blades, which are non recyclable and are hazardous waste. And what about the tons of concrete underground?

marcos_94 · 29-02-2020 11:30pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Not just that, but their EROI is very low, often below economical threshold. That's why the energy generated by them is so expensive.

Also, there is a huge problem with recycling of the turbines at the end of their lifespan, especially the blades, which are non recyclable and are hazardous waste. And what about the tons of concrete underground?

Expensive? Where are you getting that from? Did you look at the link I sent previously with Lazard’s analysis. Wind and solar are cheaper than coal, oil, and gas, there is no debate there.
https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2019

With regards to the environmental aspect, the blade recycling information that’s been around recently was focussed on the US and does not reflect what is happening in Europe. Please expand on how the blades are “hazardous waste”?
https://www-irishtimes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/wind-energy-and-the-environment-1.4175382?mode=amp

I’m still unsure what you’re trying to prove hear, what do you suggest should be the technology we use to generate power to meet our electrical needs?

Seweryn · 01-03-2020 9:39am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Expensive? Where are you getting that from? Did you look at the link I sent previously with Lazard’s analysis. Wind and solar are cheaper than coal, oil, and gas, there is no debate there.

Where am I getting this from? Just look at the electricity cost per kWh between countries. The ones with the largest proportion of wind power generation have most expensive electricity, i.e. in Denmark, Germany, etc. Ireland is catching up with them.
There is no point looking at data they are selling in the publications, just check the numbers.

marcos_94 wrote: »

With regards to the environmental aspect, the blade recycling information that’s been around recently was focussed on the US and does not reflect what is happening in Europe. Please expand on how the blades are “hazardous waste”?

The blades are made from fiberglass with a service lifetime of 10 to 20 years. If a blade shatters during operation, the soil gets polluted (surely, we know what happens when radioactive waste escapes....).
Burning the blades is extremely difficult, toxic and energy intensive. So there’s a huge incentive for German wind mill operators to dump the old contraptions onto third world countries, but they never tell you this.

The disposal of the massive reinforced concrete turbine base must be removed (in Germany anyway, according to their regulations). In the end most of the concrete base will remain as garbage buried in the ground, and the above-ground turbine litter may likely get shipped to third world countries. Fortunately, the metal parts are recyclable.

marcos_94 wrote: »

I’m still unsure what you’re trying to prove hear, what do you suggest should be the technology we use to generate power to meet our electrical needs?

Well, the wind or solar power is definitely not the answer to our needs, is it? They are fully dependent on fossil fuels at every step of the way. We can replace some of our power stations with wind turbines, but they will need a reliable back up when the wind doesn't blow or sun doesn't shine.

Then there is the financial aspect. Wind turbines don’t run on wind, they run on subsidies. Cut the subsidies and these things will never be replaced once reaching their life span.

marcos_94 · 01-03-2020 6:15pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Where am I getting this from? Just look at the electricity cost per kWh between countries. The ones with the largest proportion of wind power generation have most expensive electricity, i.e. in Denmark, Germany, etc. Ireland is catching up with them.
There is no point looking at data they are selling in the publications, just check the numbers.

Take a look at the auction prices from wind, what they’re contracted to get paid and then you see the cost of energy. Any cost to the consumer is as a result of the energy system operator. Offshore wind reached a strike price below £40/kWh last cfd round vs Hinckley point c which is wel in excess of £100/kWh.

The blades are made from fiberglass with a service lifetime of 10 to 20 years. If a blade shatters during operation, the soil gets polluted (surely, we know what happens when radioactive waste escapes....).
Burning the blades is extremely difficult, toxic and energy intensive. So there’s a huge incentive for German wind mill operators to dump the old contraptions onto third world countries, but they never tell you this.

The disposal of the massive reinforced concrete turbine base must be removed (in Germany anyway, according to their regulations). In the end most of the concrete base will remain as garbage buried in the ground, and the above-ground turbine litter may likely get shipped to third world countries. Fortunately, the metal parts are recyclable.

In Ireland, and most other markets, the foundations are left in place after decommissioning as a result of the environmental impact of removing and disposing if them.

Well, the wind or solar power is definitely not the answer to our needs, is it? They are fully dependent on fossil fuels at every step of the way. We can replace some of our power stations with wind turbines, but they will need a reliable back up when the wind doesn't blow or sun doesn't shine.

Then there is the financial aspect. Wind turbines don’t run on wind, they run on subsidies. Cut the subsidies and these things will never be replaced once reaching their life span.

Google subsidy free wind and solar, it already exists and is becoming more common place. Subsidies were used to advance adoption of a technology that is better for the environment than the incumbent. Solar and storage combined projects are competing and winning at competitive auction. Battery storage is decreasing in price at a rate of 18% per annum, with new storage technologies being developed and demonstrated (check out Highview Power in the UK and their Liqued Air Energy Storage).
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/20/new-windfarms-taxpayers-subsidies-record-low

unkel · 01-03-2020 11:30pm

Maybe we should all try to concentrate on keeping this to classic EVs?

kadman · 01-03-2020 11:46pm

I saw a recent news report about a tesla ev going on fire in Germany,
and they had to have a tesla team flown in to put out the fire of the batteries.
Kept burning for days apparently

unkel · 01-03-2020 11:49pm

From US statistics an EV is far less likely to go up in fire than an internal combustion engine car. But obviously it is big news when one does go on fire. There's about 5-10 times as much energy in a petrol tank than there is in a battery pack, so your guess which will burn more

and which will have more range...

Seweryn · 01-03-2020 11:52pm

I watched this some time ago, quite interesting...

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5htfsj

kadman · 02-03-2020 12:07am

unkel wrote: »

From US statistics an EV is far less likely to go up in fire than an internal combustion engine car. But obviously it is big news when one does go on fire. There's about 5-10 times as much energy in a petrol tank than there is in a battery pack, so your guess which will burn more

and which will have more range...

True, but you dont need a hazmat team to put the fire out like an ev.:D

kadman · 02-03-2020 12:18am

55% of pump price on diesel and petrol goes to the government in taxes.

If/when we all convert to electric how will the government get their 55% tax take back??

unkel · 02-03-2020 1:00am

kadman wrote: »

55% of pump price on diesel and petrol goes to the government in taxes.

If/when we all convert to electric how will the government get their 55% tax take back??

They won't. Like they never got the high levels of motor tax / VRT revenue back they got before the move to chape tax diesel and they lost billions

Unlike back in 2008 though, this time the decline will be very gradual as we replace all our diesel cars with EVs over the next 25 years. Except of course our classic cars. Which brings us nicely back to.....

kadman · 02-03-2020 1:06am

unkel wrote: »

They won't. Like they never got the high levels of motor tax / VRT revenue back they got before the move to chape tax diesel and they lost billions

Unlike back in 2008 though, this time the decline will be very gradual as we replace all our diesel cars with EVs over the next 25 years. Except of course our classic cars. Which brings us nicely back to.....

So who got my money then??

Kenny Logins · 02-03-2020 2:49pm

54and56 · 02-03-2020 3:14pm

marcos_94 wrote: »

I agree that some people believe they do no harm but in a life cycle analysis, they emit less than a petrol or diesel car. They are for sure better for the planet than petrol and diesel cars, and it must be noted that their life emissions can improve as the electricity share from the grid decarbonises.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/electric-cars-emit-less-co2-over-their-lifetime-diesels-even-when-powered-dirtiest-electricity

Not sure what your issue with range is? If you believe ranges are exaggerated, is that no different to the lying going on in the car industry as a whole anyways with emissions testing and fuel efficiency testing?

With regards to battery recycling, is there not a growing industry for reuse at the moment, with people like Damien buying batteries for retrofit into other vehicles? Or how about Nissan taking “used” batteries and using them as grid storage?
https://m.futurecar.com/3759/Relectrify-Using-Old-EV-Batteries-to-Power-the-Grid

Excellent podcast on the VW DieselGate scandal - https://pca.st/08h6hsjg

kadman · 02-03-2020 3:18pm

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Is it me or is there some running noise during that test??

Kenny Logins · 02-03-2020 3:55pm

kadman wrote: »

Is it me or is there some running noise during that test??

It is noisy but could have PS pump or something else running too?

marcos_94 · 02-03-2020 4:31pm

54and56 wrote: »

Excellent podcast on the VW DieselGate scandal - https://pca.st/08h6hsjg

Very interesting podcast, thanks for that. A lot less dramatic than the episode on it in the Dirty Money series on Netflix

Kenny Logins · 02-03-2020 6:06pm

kadman wrote: »

Is it me or is there some running noise during that test??

Found the build thread -

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=685542

It has a Red9 wishbone/R&P front end and is also water cooled, so there is a lot going on in there with fans and pumps etc.

timsey tiger · 03-03-2020 1:36pm

kadman wrote: »

True, but you dont need a hazmat team to put the fire out like an ev.:D

You don't put out the fire, you keep well back and wait for the explosion.

airhead_eire · 04-03-2020 12:49am

timsey tiger wrote: »

You don't put out the fire, you keep well back and wait for the explosion.

And good riddence !!

w124man · 04-03-2020 7:13pm

This is what the boss of Peugeot has to say on the EV fad. If the manufacturers are thinking this then its just a fad. Its unsustainable

54and56 · 04-03-2020 8:43pm

w124man wrote: »

This is what the boss of Peugeot has to say on the EV fad. If the manufacturers are thinking this then its just a fad. Its unsustainable

????

w124man · 04-03-2020 9:10pm

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2020/0303/1120028-electric-cars-bought-by-green-addicts-peugeot-chief/

Dont know why it didnt post the last time

Markcheese · 04-03-2020 9:48pm

Not really a classic , but I'd love to do an electric a2..
You'd get a good bit of distance for your battery buck ...

galwaytt · 06-03-2020 11:34am

kadman wrote: »

55% of pump price on diesel and petrol goes to the government in taxes.

If/when we all convert to electric how will the government get their 55% tax take back??

Because cheap and free charging for EV will cease to exist. And whilst technically any EV charging device can be indentified (like an ip address), they could introduce EV chargeing rates different from normal consumption.

Or, pull an LPT on it: just throw a blanket annual fee on every EV in the country worked out per vehicle to be that lost to excise on fuel.

Either way, they're not going to stand back and watch that revenue disappear: in fact, they can't. The exchequer can't afford not to.

kadman · 06-03-2020 4:31pm

Yep, I agree, something similar to the property tax is what I think as well.
Then just keep increasing year on year.

macplaxton · 06-03-2020 5:20pm

zg3409 · 27-04-2020 11:32am

Please try stay on topic.

Electric classic cars based in Wales just launched their beetle kit for UK20,000 . This includes battery, motor etc, but you need to DIY the installation. Battery is 26kWh which may give a range of 150km or so, with only slow 6.6kW charging meaning beyond range trips would need 4 hours to give another 150km

https://m.facebook.com/electricclassiccars/

I could easy see DIY kits for 10,000 euro in the future, and a doubling of range, particularly in vehicles that can take a load of batteries such as a vw bus or large classic car.

https://m.facebook.com/electricclassiccars/

https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/shop

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/irish-start-up-converting-classics-into-electric-supercars-1.3856975%3fmode=amp

This crowd are linked to the Enniskerry crowd near Bray.

They are typically very high end and expensive. Prices should come down over time and range should increase.

On the topic of DIY conversions, Damien Maguire has done a good few conversions, he does not sell the cars and he does not do conversions to order. He does sell some adapter circuit boards so people can use Nissan or Tesla parts in non Nissan or non tesla cars.

https://evbmw.com/index.php/evbmw-webshop

He also runs courses regularly out of a unit in Arklow. This teaches DIY conversions with help on sourcing parts particularly used Nissan and Tesla motors and electronics. People have travelled all over Europe to attend.

Dates and times here. Typical course cost 1000 euro.

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=491

A few Irish mechanics and enthusiasts have completed the course, which guides you through the basics of motors, batteries, chargers, inverters and how to modify an old car to EV including getting NCT. It is based around the low end of using second hand parts, to keep conversion costs down. Certain cars are particularly suited to conversion.

One Irish guy is working in his conversion at the moment, and he seems to be making good progress

https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=103447861071902&ref=content_filter

He may or may not have completed the course.

Some upsides of classic car conversion

Daily driver reliability, no/tiny fuel costs, no distributors/points/carburetors/oil changes/ new drivetrain

High performance 0-60 can be higher particularly in slower air cooled beetles etc.

You may be able to get 50% to 75% off tolls ( may have to fight as specific list of cars at the moment)

Ideal for car where engine is a right off or impractical to run as a daily driver.

There are downsides and the costs vs range probably don't justify the effort yet, but range is increasing and newer conversions have fast charging meaning recharging on route becomes practical. Costs are dropping all the time and used parts are becoming more common.

Electric Vehicles / Classics

Comments