The Leinster Championship is dead.

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 3:46pm

Coybig_ wrote: »

The pure and utter delusion on display from some Dublin supporters is quite staggering. I'm genuinely taken aback at some of the nonsense that has been spouted to internally justify the situation as it is.

gourcuff wrote: »

a quote springs to mind...

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it"

when your success depends and was brought about because of inequality, you're hardly going to vote for equality.

interesting that bertie seems to agree that the investment was instrumental in dublin's success...

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/bertie-ahern-explains-how-he-helped-finance-the-dublin-gaa-revolution-37366135.html

Excuse me, if you are referring to me. No where did I say finances did not make a difference. However, I would query the fact that it is given as the sole reason for Dublin's success by their detractors. There are a number of variables at play not least the structure of the provincial championship. Plus Meath and Kildare's decline coming backwards to other minnow leinster teams level.

As for Bertie, he is going to overplay his hand in the improvement of Dublin GAA he is a politician after all.

The view many Dublin have detractors is like when a female singer gets a boob job. They can only focus on the boobs. Did she succeed because of that or her singing talent?

Or was she intelligent enough to take on board what the voice coach said? All the practice and hard work etc. All that is ignored. All Leinster think a boob job is the answer now = success. That is naive in the extreme.

If you look at the structure of the GAA provincial championship you can see how laughable it is. By my reckoning there is only Leinster team in the top seven in the country in Dublin. What does that say about Leinster? It is mickey mouse. Like Munster which is only marginally better.

Munster is a joke a Mickey mouse football province. The best historical football team in the land playing football in a hurling province. Plus their nearest rivals only play football because they can't or won't hurl. Don't let Tipp's win fool you most of that was down to Covid 19.

Look at the football league rankings of the Munster teams (6 counties) -

Munster Football

Kerry - div 1 league champions 2020 and AI finalists 2019. 7 in a row Munster's (15 of the last 20) and 37 AI's

-- gap

Cork - promoted from div 3 - last AI 10 years ago (shock) team dismantled

-- gap

Tipperary - a div 3 team - good underage a decade ago but still a division three team - a hurling county

Clare- a division 2 team hurling county

--gap

Limerick - a hurling county promoted from div 4

-- gap

Waterford - one of the two weakest football sides in the country - football not its forte.

--
--

Leinster football 11 teams for some reason the most in any province.

Dublin - div 1 arguably currently the best team in the history of Gaelic Football

-- gap

Kildare - a div 2 side lucky to win a game at all if they get to div 1 normally whipping boys in that division. And likely to get beaten in all games in super 8's if they make it. Always capable of losing to Westmeath, Carlow, or Longford et al on the day in Leinster.

Meath - a div 2 side lucky to win a game at all if they get to div 1 normally whipping boys in that division. And likely to get beaten in all games in super 8's if they make it. Always capable of losing to Westmeath, Carlow, or Longford et al on the day in Leinster.

-- gap

Laois - a div 2 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Carlow - a div 4 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Westmeath - a div 4 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

-- gap
--
Offaly - a div 3 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Longford - a div 3 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

-- gap

Making up the numbers -

Wexford - div 4 hurling county

Louth - relegated div3

Wicklow - promoted div 4

So people have to ask surely there are other obvious variables people have not considered? Like the lopsided structure of the GAA provincials is sh1te. Leading to nearly guaranteed one sided games. As the two weakest provinces have the two best teams in them with little or no competition.

Uncle Pierre · 01-12-2020 4:00pm

^^^

Jaysus. You think so poorly of us here in Wexford that you don't even put us down as "making up the numbers". Yet you include Longford twice. Did somebody split Longford in two???

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 4:06pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

^^^

Jaysus. You think so poorly of us here in Wexford that you don't even put us down as "making up the numbers". Yet you include Longford twice. Did somebody split Longford in two???

Typo - yeah I think wexford are dire - hurling no1 davy fitz effect

Hammer Archer · 01-12-2020 4:15pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Excuse me, if you are referring to me. No where did I say finances did not make a difference. However, I would query the fact that it is given as the sole reason for Dublin's success by their detractors.

Again, as has been said before but you constantly ignore, no one who isn't on the wind up has ever said that the only reason Dublin have been successful is because of money. Literally not a single person.

Don't let Tipp's win fool you most of that was down to Covid 19.

Again, incredibly insulting and incredibly wrong.

Seriously GDG, you've gotten so much wrong in this thread, it's unbelievable.

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 4:22pm

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Again, as has been said before but you constantly ignore, no one who isn't on the wind up has ever said that the only reason Dublin have been successful is because of money. Literally not a single person.

Plenty have on boards.ie - who lap up Ewan McKenna stuff.

Again, incredibly insulting and incredibly wrong.

No I disagree remove all the emotional talk about Tipp and Cavan's wins. And think about the main variable in their success it was covid19 and it's disruption to the football championship. That is the reality of the situation. It would not have happened if this season was a normal season. Well done and all that. But massive covid19* in the history books.
Plus I believe the future will prove it will not happen again for those teams for a long time again.

Seriously GDG, you've gotten so much wrong in this thread, it's unbelievable.

Have I? I am merely pointing out things as I see them. If I do not know something or cannot remember something I research it. Which is more than can be said than some posters. Who fell into the trap of thinking Declan Darcy was not from Dublin for example. Plus others do not seem to know Dublin did not compete in the U21 AI for a few spells and did not treat it seriously when in it.

Plus it was like drawing blood out of a turnip to try and get posters to realise not only did Dublin go forwards. But Kildare and Meath went backwards. Losing 5 times to teams other than Dublin and each other in the last 10 Leinster Championships.

Uncle Pierre · 01-12-2020 4:33pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Typo - yeah I think wexford are dire

Unfortunately, I can't disagree with you there. They've gone backward a lot since I stopped playing. Am not necessarily saying the two are directly related though

kksaints · 01-12-2020 4:36pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Leinster football 12 teams for some reason the most in any province.

Dublin - div 1 arguably currently the best team in the history of Gaelic Football

-- gap

Kildare - a div 2 side lucky to win a game at all if they get to div 1 normally whipping boys in that division. And likely to get beaten in all games in super 8's if they make it. Always capable of losing to Westmeath, Carlow, or Longford et al on the day in Leinster.

Meath - a div 2 side lucky to win a game at all if they get to div 1 normally whipping boys in that division. And likely to get beaten in all games in super 8's if they make it. Always capable of losing to Westmeath, Carlow, or Longford et al on the day in Leinster.

-- gap

Laois - a div 2 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Carlow - a div 4 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Westmeath - a div 4 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

-- gap
--
Offaly - a div 3 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

Longford - a div 3 side capable of shocking Meath/Kildare on a one off no hopers for anything else

-- gap

Making up the numbers -

Wexford - div 4 hurling county

Louth - relegated div3

Wicklow - promoted div 4

So people have to ask surely there are other obvious variables people have not considered? Like the lopsided structure of the GAA provincials is sh1te. Leading to nearly guaranteed one sided games. As the two weakest provinces have the two best teams in them with little or no competition.

There's actually only 11 teams in Leinster football Championship. We've played in the British football Championship the last few years.

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 4:38pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Unfortunately, I can't disagree with you there. They've gone backward a lot since I stopped playing. Am not necessarily saying the two are directly related though

Brilliant in 2008 though! Plus the best jerseys in intercounty football not all bad.

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 4:43pm

kksaints wrote: »

There's actually only 11 teams in Leinster football Championship. We've played in the British football Championship the last few years.

Wouldn't make a difference if I missed a few on proves how irrelevant many of the Leinster counties are in football. Non-descript offer little and are just there.

Yet Munster have 6 teams and Connacht only have 5 and throw in NY and London for the craic. Provincials like a very fair sensible competition doesn't it? Plus Ulster is a dogfight. And people just say 'tradition'.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 01-12-2020 4:48pm

Why would covid make it easier for Tipp or Cavan to win provincials? Surely Kerry and Donegal should have been more focused on winning in Munster and Ulster as there was no back door.

Uncle Pierre · 01-12-2020 4:53pm

kksaints wrote: »

There's actually only 11 teams in Leinster football Championship. We've played in the British football Championship the last few years.

Kilkenny. British Junior Football Champions 2015, 2017 and 2018. Think I'm right in saying they're the only Irish team to ever win a British championship.

gormdubhgorm · 01-12-2020 4:57pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Why would covid make it easier for Tipp or Cavan to win provincials? Surely Kerry and Donegal should have been more focused on winning in Munster and Ulster as there was no back door.

Obvious disruption of Kerry's and Donegal's prep, no crowds have changed the make up of games as well.

Plus that Aussie Rules man Colin O'Riordan for Tipp would have been back in Australia with the Sydney Swans - only for covid19

Also Mark Keane from Cork would have been back in Australia with Collingwood - only for covid19.

Dublin glad of a rest, and in an easy province so covid19 has been good for Dublin. I doubt Dublin would have made the SF this year without it. Team was very leggy pre covid19.

Scoundrel · 01-12-2020 5:03pm

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Unfortunately, the lean spell in Wexford hurling has gone on since 1968, apart from the All-Ireland victory of 1996 and few minor bright spots since then, such as winning Leinster in 1997, 2004 and again last year.

Previously pointed out how we were in 11 All-Ireland hurling finals in the 26 years between 1951 and 1977. We've only been in one since then. Oh, if only we had a Wexford Taoiseach, with a few friends on the Sports Council.

There's no real geographic split in Wexford, the way there is in many other dual counties. Obviously some clubs concentrate one game more than the other, but there's not a single large area where you could say either "it's all football there" or "it's all hurling there". I actually think it's part of our problem, but that's a whole other story.

An awful pity that hurling was ever allowed to take hold in Wexford at all one of the great traditional football counties..

Uncle Pierre · 01-12-2020 5:07pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

An awful pity that hurling was ever allowed to take hold in Wexford at all one of the great traditional football counties..

I'll agree to that if you agree it's a similar awful pity that gaelic football was ever allowed to take hold in Dublin - Ireland's traditional home and bastion of soccer.

:D

ArielAtom · 01-12-2020 5:08pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

They are related issues.

As are the fact that the opposition in Leinster is extremely poor, and I'm being generous in my description of that. How come the other provinces can compete with Dublin, but it is only the Leinster teams can't?

This is a debate on Leinster, I have said they need help, they really need open heart surgery they are in that bad a condition. If you really believe that Dublin are superior fitness wise as most posters in here think then there will be some serious funding required in the schools of Leinster to get those young lads and lassies up to the Dublin fitness levels. I suggest that the GAA fund every county in Leinster to €10.00 per head of primary school going age and put as many GDO's in to develop skill and fitness levels.

Have you any suggestions yourself?

Tombo2001 · 01-12-2020 5:19pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Excuse me, if you are referring to me. No where did I say finances did not make a difference. However, I would query the fact that it is given as the sole reason for Dublin's success by their detractors. There are a number of variables at play not least the structure of the provincial championship. Plus Meath and Kildare's decline coming backwards to other minnow leinster teams level.

So people have to ask surely there are other obvious variables people have not considered? Like the lopsided structure of the GAA provincials is sh1te. Leading to nearly guaranteed one sided games. As the two weakest provinces have the two best teams in them with little or no competition.

The combination of
- sheer numbers, allied to to the volume of investment in those numbers (at underage)
-plus the home advantage of playing all your games in croke park
- plus the demographic advantage of being the centre of industry and university, such that young people are likely to stay living in the county and study and work there.

These are phenomenal advantages that other counties - no matter what way you cut it - cant replicate.

Dubs fans I think would like people to believe the county is like Kerry or Kilkenny, that its just the sheer passion of Dubs for football and a once in a lifetime crop of players. There may be a bit of the latter, but the gap between the Dubs and the rest is far wider than for example what Kilkenny enjoyed 10 years ago.

To add to all that- is the knock on effect it has on other counties - why would you want to play football for Meath anymore. There is nothing that team can do to live up to expectations, they have endured humiliation after humiliation in recent years.

You call it Meaths decline back to minnow levels - Meath have been Leinster Finalists two years running. If the Dubs hadnt been in the picture, who is to say Meath wouldnt have been in an all Ireland final last year.

Dubs fans are in denial about the advantages they enjoy and thats fair enough, it doesnt suit their narrative.

But this simply cant continue. And it wont continue because people will stop going to games. And they have been stopping going to games, in big numbers.

I only see two solutions here (i) break Dublin into two or even three groups, which I think is unpalatable for everyone (and doesnt even address the issue as South Dublin versus Longford or even Meath is still a mismatch) (ii) Take Dublin out of Leinster, which they should do immediately in my view. Third potential outcome here is (iii) do nothing. The impact of this in my view is that the club championship will grow in importance and people will stop watching intercounty.

moghrasa · 01-12-2020 6:50pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

As are the fact that the opposition in Leinster is extremely poor, and I'm being generous in my description of that. How come the other provinces can compete with Dublin, but it is only the Leinster teams can't?

What provinces is that now? The formerly competitive, once in a generation Mayo side that were walloped last year? Or the Kerry team that caught Dublin by suprise, STILL couldn't win it, and were duly swatted away in a replay?

Perhaps you're referring Donegal, the last team to beat Dublin in the championship. 6 years ago. With the current side having less than half a dozen of those players still in the squad today. I'd be interested to see what province you think is competitive with Dublin...

ArielAtom · 01-12-2020 7:46pm

moghrasa wrote: »

What provinces is that now? The formerly competitive, once in a generation Mayo side that were walloped last year? Or the Kerry team that caught Dublin by suprise, STILL couldn't win it, and were duly swatted away in a replay?

Perhaps you're referring Donegal, the last team to beat Dublin in the championship. 6 years ago. With the current side having less than half a dozen of those players still in the squad today. I'd be interested to see what province you think is competitive with Dublin...

As you have asked, below are the last 10 years finals and the margins of victory

2010 Cork won.
2011 Dublin beat Kerry by 1 point
2012 Donegal win.
2013 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2104 Kerry win
2015 Dublin beat Kerry by 3 points
2016 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2017 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2018 Dublin beat Tyrone by 6 points
2019 Dublin beat Kerry by 6 points.

6 points is the largest margin and that was against Tyrone and a replay v Kerry. The scoring stats do not suggest total dominance.

Leinster maybe, but not nationally. Therefore Leinster is the problem, poor teams that need major surgery.

moghrasa · 01-12-2020 8:23pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

As you have asked, below are the last 10 years finals and the margins of victory

2010 Cork won.
2011 Dublin beat Kerry by 1 point
2012 Donegal win.
2013 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2104 Kerry win
2015 Dublin beat Kerry by 3 points
2016 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2017 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2018 Dublin beat Tyrone by 6 points
2019 Dublin beat Kerry by 6 points.

6 points is the largest margin and that was against Tyrone and a replay v Kerry. The scoring stats do not suggest total dominance.

Leinster maybe, but not nationally. Therefore Leinster is the problem, poor teams that need major surgery.

I'll be honest, those Mayo finals gave me hope. Since then however Mayo's panel has only gotten weaker since then (not to say it is weak. Mayo are a quality side relative to most of the teams in the country). Dublin humiliated Mayo last year without breaking a sweat. I don't see the point in bringing the 2016/2017 finals into this bracket seeing as ye have played Mayo more recently and it was a non contest.

Similarly, Tyrone were competitive for about 20 minutes and then were subdued. Kerry caught Dublin on the hop last year, but if we're being honest with ourselves they only managed to keep it close against 14 men, and got the result that many people expected the first time around once the replay came around. I don't mean to drag the thread off topic - I'm only bringing it up because I don't agree that the rest of the provinces can put out a provincial champion capable of defeating Dublin (barring an upset).

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 01-12-2020 9:10pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

As are the fact that the opposition in Leinster is extremely poor, and I'm being generous in my description of that. How come the other provinces can compete with Dublin, but it is only the Leinster teams can't?

This is a debate on Leinster, I have said they need help, they really need open heart surgery they are in that bad a condition. If you really believe that Dublin are superior fitness wise as most posters in here think then there will be some serious funding required in the schools of Leinster to get those young lads and lassies up to the Dublin fitness levels. I suggest that the GAA fund every county in Leinster to €10.00 per head of primary school going age and put as many GDO's in to develop skill and fitness levels.

Have you any suggestions yourself?

Oh, I agree that those counties should do better. Dublin's wouldn't be able to dominate the province so much if Mayo, Kerry or Donegal were in Leinster.

Enquiring · 01-12-2020 9:12pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Incorrect it was longer than that Dublin GAA went through long spells of not competing in the u21 championship. I suggest you research it properly. It still annoys me lack of foresight by Dublin CLG. As I already stated how do you explain the Dublin intercounty dip 2013 -2020. Plus at the same time explain how Dublin club football has floundered. As both seem incongruent to many an argument.

Also Dublin's hurling revival can be traced to 20 years ago at minor, unfortunately it has faded quicker.

Care to point out the decades Dublin didn't enter a team in the u21 championship? I'm sure you can tell us instantly from your research?

ArielAtom · 01-12-2020 9:20pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Oh, I agree that those counties should do better. Dublin's wouldn't be able to dominate the province so much if Mayo, Kerry or Donegal were in Leinster.

I’ll take that response as a no to suggesting a remedy then. If me Aunt had balls!!!

Enquiring · 01-12-2020 9:31pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

As are the fact that the opposition in Leinster is extremely poor, and I'm being generous in my description of that. How come the other provinces can compete with Dublin, but it is only the Leinster teams can't?

This is a debate on Leinster, I have said they need help, they really need open heart surgery they are in that bad a condition. If you really believe that Dublin are superior fitness wise as most posters in here think then there will be some serious funding required in the schools of Leinster to get those young lads and lassies up to the Dublin fitness levels. I suggest that the GAA fund every county in Leinster to €10.00 per head of primary school going age and put as many GDO's in to develop skill and fitness levels.

Have you any suggestions yourself?

It's a common theme across this thread, have a go at other Leinster counties while gloating how great Dublin are. Let's refresh our memories.

Dublin, a county with over 1 million in population had never won an All Ireland u21 title, hadn't won a minor title since the 80's, were losing to counties with far lower populations in Kildare, Meath, Laois and Westmeath. They were still competitive but they had to go begging to Bertie Ahern as they were no longer the kingpins in Leinster.

The money changed everything. Professional structures were put in place and turned things around for Dublin. Gloating and pissing on other counties because you got success after millions of euros of taxpayers money were sent your way is pretty distasteful. There's a huge drop out rate amongst Leinster counties as they see it as pointless, football is really struggling but as long as Dublin keep throttling them off the back of millions you don't care.

It's not just Leinster by the way. Last year Dublin beat Cork by 13 points, Roscommon by 18 points and Mayo by 10. Not many teams are getting within 10 and it's only going to get worse.

Enquiring · 01-12-2020 9:35pm

At least this thing is gaining momentum. It used to be brushed aside as a few cranks. It's clear now that there is a major issue and it's a crisis in Gaelic football. More people have copped onto it and are aware of what actually happened and the level of funding Dublin got. Dublin thrashing Cavan and whoever in the final is what we need to see. It will really push this on again.

Uncle Pierre · 01-12-2020 9:59pm

Enquiring wrote: »

Care to point out the decades Dublin didn't enter a team in the u21 championship? I'm sure you can tell us instantly from your research?

I'm genuinely curious myself as to when Dublin didn't enter the U-21 championship, and for how long at a time that they stayed out of it.

A quick look at the roll of honour tells me they didn't win it between 1984 and 2002...but they were runners-up in 1992, 1993, 1998 and 2001. There's clearly not a decade-long gap anywhere there for them to have stayed out of it that long.

ArielAtom · 01-12-2020 10:34pm

Enquiring wrote: »

It's a common theme across this thread, have a go at other Leinster counties while gloating how great Dublin are. Let's refresh our memories.

Dublin, a county with over 1 million in population had never won an All Ireland u21 title, hadn't won a minor title since the 80's, were losing to counties with far lower populations in Kildare, Meath, Laois and Westmeath. They were still competitive but they had to go begging to Bertie Ahern as they were no longer the kingpins in Leinster.

The money changed everything. Professional structures were put in place and turned things around for Dublin. Gloating and pissing on other counties because you got success after millions of euros of taxpayers money were sent your way is pretty distasteful. There's a huge drop out rate amongst Leinster counties as they see it as pointless, football is really struggling but as long as Dublin keep throttling them off the back of millions you don't care.

It's not just Leinster by the way. Last year Dublin beat Cork by 13 points, Roscommon by 18 points and Mayo by 10. Not many teams are getting within 10 and it's only going to get worse.

Can you come up with a solution to you’re perceived problem? You have thrown out accusations of murky dealings , known family dodginess but at no stage have you ever offered a solution. I’m all ears. Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

Dickie10 · 01-12-2020 11:08pm

well straight away take dublin out of leinster, that should be done right away just put them into the super 8s straight. sure didnt they do the same to galway hurlers in connacht when they were hammering roscommon every year?

StupidLikeAFox · 01-12-2020 11:21pm

ArielAtom wrote: »

Can you come up with a solution to you’re perceived problem? You have thrown out accusations of murky dealings , known family dodginess but at no stage have you ever offered a solution. I’m all ears. Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

You kind of alluded to it yourself earlier - replicate the Dublin model across other counties, stop this ludicrous situation where the richest county gets special treatment and maybe, after a few years, we would see something like a level playing field.

ArielAtom · 01-12-2020 11:28pm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You kind of alluded to it yourself earlier - replicate the Dublin model across other counties, stop this ludicrous situation where the richest county gets special treatment and maybe, after a few years, we would see something like a level playing field.

Although I was replying to another poster it’s wonderful to have reply that actually references a solution rather than another whinge. So now we need to get county boards to develop cohesive plans on how the development plan will play out, submit and get the required funding in order place. Would you agree that the majority of these county boards could benefit from some outside expert help in planning or let them develop their own structures? Just as an aside, the only county to ask Dublin for help in developing a plan to date was Limerick.

The_Kew_Tour · 02-12-2020 4:42am

And nobody has mentioned yet where the real blame lies

Irish Rugby

The Leinster Championship is dead.

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