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2020/21 NBA season + Olympics
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LeVert seems to be stuck at Houston.
Oladipo would rather go to Miami and the deal is apparently stalling. Neither team has issued any statement regarding Oladipo.
Oladipo lives in Miami and has been flirting with them for some time. Can't see who Miami would give up though that would make it attractive for Indiana.0 -
Anyone think the Nets might try to offload Kyrie now that he'll soon be the third best player on the team and has questionable behaviour and commitment? Try and get some defence in a trade?
In theory I'd say they'd be better for it and it may create a better fit of a roster but Jesus if they offloaded kyrie now they'd get a massive backlash from nba players in general0 -
ButtersSuki wrote: »Oladipo lives in Miami and has been flirting with them for some time. Can't see who Miami would give up though that would make it attractive for Indiana.
Herro would surely have to be part of that deal. But are Miami going to give up Herro who at times looks like a potential star?0 -
He looks decent but I think his value has been a tad overstated off the back of their playoff run.Herro would surely have to be part of that deal. But are Miami going to give up Herro who at times looks like a potential star?
If they don't give him up for Oladipo assuming Oladipo is agreeing or has agreed to an extension then I think that would be a mistake.
He's compares relatively favorably to guards in his class outside of Morant but I think Oladipo would do really well under Spoe0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »He looks decent but I think his value has been a tad overstated off the back of their playoff run.
If they don't give him up for Oladipo assuming Oladipo is agreeing or has agreed to an extension then I think that would be a mistake.
He's compares relatively favorably to guards in his class outside of Morant but I think Oladipo would do really well under Spoe
I get the point you're making . But I dont think the Heat are winning anything this year even if they trade for Oladipo . So makes more sense to keep Herro IMO0 -
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Sweet.Science wrote: »I get the point you're making . But I dont think the Heat are winning anything this year even if they trade for Oladipo . So makes more sense to keep Herro IMO
It’s definitely extension depending no matter what. Simmons made the point that Oladipo is playing bad basketball but looks really healthy.
Perhaps a little bit of holding back for his own agenda too0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »If you’re going to indirectly reply to the opinions of people you should try leave the condescending attitude and use of words such as stupid at the door.
My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden because the previous version was not the one they were bargaining with.
As I said, MVP Harden in an open market is different than this Harden in a limited market. The package receives need to be weighed more against the latter than the former. That was the crux of my point.
Nobody doubts that the potential exists for him to bounce back but it’s not overnight and will take longer at 31 than 21 just like it would take longer at 35 than 31.
However it’s not simply about weight gain, those players who lead a given lifestyle have a shorter career and the trajectory of that career is often more precipitous
He likely will return to an extremely high level but to me it’s not instantaneous as you suggest nor guaranteed. Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong
It was not mean to be an indirect reply, it was meant as a reply to your post. I thought I'd clicked reply, so that's my bad. It was pretty clear from my post that I was responding to you I would have thought. Anyway...
Stupid is the word I chose to describe the argument. Maybe ill-conceived would be a better choice of words, apologies. Healthy debate and a difference of opinions is what makes things interesting.
But your assertion that Harden's weight gain and in intentionally below par performances hampered his trade value is not one I agree with. This is not a player whose ability has fallen off a clip, he simply disengaged completely on the court (A pretty shiitty thing to do I might add, I am no Harden apologist and the way he handled the whole thing is arguably worse than the manner in which Vince Carter orchestrated his exit from Toronto to the Nets all those years ago) Harden made it clear that he would only entertain offers from Brooklyn or Philly, other teams made calls (widely reported that Portland, Miami and Denver all expressed interest but were rebuffed.
So you say "My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden " - I say that teams knew Harden quit, and that did not enter the thinking of other teams. 4 terrible performances by Harden to get himself out of Houston does not equate to any kind of regression or drop in standard. Yes he may need a few weeks to play himself back in to shape, but you do know you are getting James Harden the unstoppable scorer and amazing passer.
"Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong"
Your point is that Houston did not get as much as they should is it? I disagree with that also if that is what you are getting at. I actually think by getting that many picks, they control the Nets’ next seven drafts, netting another first from the Cavs ( they have set themselves up very nicely for a rebuild. Best case scenario this Nets team is a contender for 3-4 years, but those last 3 draft picks could well be very high. All those picks are unprotected also which is obviously huge. One year of Oladipo to kick the tyres on him and seeing where he is at before having to offer him a contract is a very good deal imo.
Star players never get traded for full value, that is a truism borne with literally dozens of examples. Kyrie Irving went Boston for Isiah Thomas and Jae Crowder Dwight Howard coming off a few MVP runs and a Finals appearance went to LA for Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington and a few other nobodies,
James Harden(albeit not quite the Harden he became) For Kevin Martin And Jeremy Lamb. Go back in history, Kareem was traded away by Milwaukee to the Lakers for a couple of players who never did anything for the Bucks. I could keep going . I think the Rockets front office got a very very good return.0 -
It was not mean to be an indirect reply, it was meant as a reply to your post. I thought I'd clicked reply, so that's my bad. It was pretty clear from my post that I was responding to you I would have thought. Anyway...
Stupid is the word I chose to describe the argument. Maybe ill-conceived would be a better choice of words, apologies. Healthy debate and a difference of opinions is what makes things interesting and fun around here, so no hard feelings.
But your assertion that Harden's weight gain and in intentionally below par performances hampered his trade value is not one I agree with. This is not a player whose ability has fallen off a cliff, he simply disengaged completely on the court (A pretty shiitty thing to do I might add, I am no Harden apologist and the way he handled the whole thing is arguably worse than the manner in which Vince Carter orchestrated his exit from Toronto to the Nets all those years ago) Harden made it clear that he would only entertain offers from Brooklyn or Philly, other teams made calls (widely reported that Portland, Miami and Denver all expressed interest but were rebuffed.
So you say "My points regarding weight and performance are valid because we have proof that is how he actually performed. My point was that The Rockets traded an inferior version of Harden " - I say that teams knew Harden quit, and that did not enter the thinking of other teams when judging what Harden could do on a new team. 4 terrible performances by Harden to get himself out of Houston does not equate to any kind of regression or drop in standard. Yes he will need a few weeks to play himself back in to shape, but you do know you are getting James Harden the unstoppable scorer and amazing passer.
"Your opinion isn’t stupid though it’s just wrong"
Your point is that Houston did not get as much as they should is it? I disagree with that also if that is what you are getting at. I actually think by getting that many picks, they control the Nets’ next seven drafts, netting another first from the Cavs ( they have set themselves up very nicely for a rebuild. Best case scenario this Nets team is a contender for 3-4 years, but those last 3 draft picks could well be very high. All those picks are unprotected also which is obviously huge. One year of Oladipo to kick the tyres on him and seeing where he is at before having to offer him a contract is a very good deal imo.
Star players never get traded for full value, that is a truism that has literally dozens of examples. Kyrie Irving went Boston for Isiah Thomas and Jae Crowder Dwight Howard coming off a few MVP runs and a Finals appearance went to LA for Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington and a few other nobodies,
James Harden(albeit not quite the Harden he became) For Kevin Martin And Jeremy Lamb. Go back in history, Kareem was traded away by Milwaukee to the Lakers for a couple of players who never did anything for the Bucks. I could keep going. I think the Rockets front office got a very very good return.
It will undoubtedly be fun to watch how it all plays out anyway!
Stupid is fine to use if you wish, its use says more about your inability in discourse than it does about my opinion.
Of course his conditioning hampered his trade value as did his attitude. That is not really up for debate, that’s effectively ubiquitously agreed upon by all pundits. The difference in value may be up for debate but it’s not non-zero.
As I said in all likelihood he returns to full form but it’s also not guaranteed and the weight he has gained is not lost overnight while also being more difficult to lose as one ages.
You seem to be confusing yourself, perhaps you didn’t fully read my posts. Given I am clearly questioning Hardens value I find it hard how you could conclude the above, that might be a little bit of an illogical argument. I repeatedly suggested that The Rockets received more than fair value so I guess we agree there.
Your examples of stars for pieces is rather selective, there are a wide range of recent examples where the opposite is true and or looks likely to be true moving into the future. The Nets/Boston trade being a rather salient example.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Stupid is fine to use if you wish, its use says more about your inability in discourse than it does about my opinion.
Of course his conditioning hampered his trade value as did his attitude. That is not really up for debate, that’s effectively ubiquitously agreed upon by all pundits. The difference in value may be up for debate but it’s not non-zero.
As I said in all likelihood he returns to full form but it’s also not guaranteed and the weight he has gained is not lost overnight while also being more difficult to lose as one ages.
You seem to be confusing yourself, perhaps you didn’t fully read my posts. Given I am clearly questioning Hardens value I find it hard how you could conclude the above, that might be a little bit of an illogical argument. I repeatedly suggested that The Rockets received more than fair value so I guess we agree there.
Your examples of stars for pieces is rather selective, there are a wide range of recent examples where the opposite is true and or looks likely to be true moving into the future. The Nets/Boston trade being a rather salient example.
And I contend that his conditioning and attitude did not hamper his trade value.The Rockets did not have a better offer on the table 2 months ago when Harden first made clear his unhappiness. They ended up with 2 very good offers and went with the picks and Oladipo. Time will tell whether Simmons would have been the better trade to make. I think Simmons is a brilliant player, but he is hard to build an entire team around, and I see him more as a very good number two (if he ever develops a consistent jump shot that all changes.) Give me an example of a better trade that you believe the Rockets could have made, with a fully fit and engaged Harden? Because I don't think it's out there.
If you are referring to the trade where the Nets traded away every pick they had for a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and a 36 year old Paul Pierce, that was probably the worst trade deal ever made and is the exception that proves the rule. There are tonnes and tonnes of examples, recent and in the past of star players being traded for way below their value. Look at A.D's trade to the Lakers. In 2017 a prime and pre injury Boogie Cousins went to the Pelicans for a whole bunch of nothing. A year later Kawhi Leonard was traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan though undoubtedly the Spurs were in a weak position as Kawhi was holding out from playing with that phantom injury. In 2013 the same year as the Nets Boston trade you referenced,a prime Z-Bo was traded to Memphis for Quentin bloody Richardson. in 2014 Kevin Love joined LeBron and Kyrie in Cleveland. At the time Love was considered a top 15-20 player, and the Cavs gave up almost nothing. The long and the short- It is very hard to get 100 cents on the dollar for your superstar, as usually when you are trading then you are doing it from a position of weakness not strength.
It's championship or bust for the Net and they have essentially two years to accomplish that task. The shelf-life for this core is a shorter than for most superteams that get assembled, which makes me very confident that the Rockets will be very happy with this trade down the line.0 -
And I contend that his conditioning and attitude did not hamper his trade value.The Rockets did not have a better offer on the table 2 months ago when Harden first made clear his unhappiness. They ended up with 2 very good offers and went with the picks and Oladipo. Time will tell whether Simmons would have been the better trade to make. I think Simmons is a brilliant player, but he is hard to build an entire team around, and I see him more as a very good number two (if he ever develops a consistent jump shot that all changes.) Give me an example of a better trade that you believe the Rockets could have made, with a fully fit and engaged Harden? Because I don't think it's out there.
If you are referring to the trade where the Nets traded away every pick they had for a 37 year old Kevin Garnett and a 36 year old Paul Pierce, that was probably the worst trade deal ever made and is the exception that proves the rule. There are tonnes and tonnes of examples, recent and in the past of star players being traded for way below their value. Look at A.D's trade to the Lakers. In 2017 a prime and pre injury Boogie Cousins went to the Pelicans for a whole bunch of nothing. A year later Kawhi Leonard was traded to Toronto for DeMar DeRozan though undoubtedly the Spurs were in a weak position as Kawhi was holding out from playing with that phantom injury. In 2013 the same year as the Nets Boston trade you referenced,a prime Z-Bo was traded to Memphis for Quentin bloody Richardson. in 2014 Kevin Love joined LeBron and Kyrie in Cleveland. At the time Love was considered a top 15-20 player, and the Cavs gave up almost nothing. The long and the short- It is very hard to get 100 cents on the dollar for your superstar, as usually when you are trading one you are doing it from a position of weakness not strength.
It's championship or bust for the Net and they have essentially two years to accomplish that task. The shelf-life for this core is a shorter than for most superteams that get assembled, which makes me very confident that the Rockets will be very happy with this trade down the line.
You’re probably 1 of X who contends that, always worth being a contrarian to some extent I guess.
Again you seem really confused, I simply suggested a fully fit James Harden had the ability to garner a greater return, I never said that would come from another team but it’s a widely held opinion that his attitude/conditioning was a deterrent.
It’s outlandish to think otherwise but that’s your opinion.
Multiple pundits have mentioned that Ainge was put off by his attitude and perhaps is a reason why a Boston offer never surfaced.
I’m not going to trawl through previous trades to make my argument but to suggest the Nets trade is the exception which proves the rule is hyperbole. It’s was a poor trade, one of the worst but certainly not the only one.
Again we seem to agree which is what is confusing for me. I believe the Rockets won the trade. The Nets probably overpaid for Harden but you seem to be content on arguing that both the Nets & Rockets won? I think? Agreed, it’s not always zero sum but your points seem quite juxtaposed and inconsistent.
Succinctly, in order to avoid you becoming confused again, my position is
1. Harden needs to proof he can regain his previous form and I don’t believe that will happen overnight.
2. Hardens conditioning hurt his trade value, perhaps The Rockets can convince the Sixers to part with Simmons & Maxey or Nets give up another asset such as Harris to appease Rockets further
Additionally a 3rd team may come in but his value undoubtedly dropped.
3. In light of the conditioning/attitude of Harden along with sub standard market conditions the Rockets did incredibly well. Either the Nets or Simmons centered Sixers deal was a win.
We’ll agree to disagree or won’t, not really sure but either way it’ll be interesting.0 -
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Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »You’re probably 1 of X who contends that, always worth being a contrarian to some extent I guess.
Again you seem really confused, I simply suggested a fully fit James Harden had the ability to garner a greater return, I never said that would come from another team but it’s a widely held opinion that his attitude/conditioning was a deterrent.
It’s outlandish to think otherwise but that’s your opinion.
Multiple pundits have mentioned that Ainge was put off by his attitude and perhaps is a reason why a Boston offer never surfaced.
I’m not going to trawl through previous trades to make my argument but to suggest the Nets trade is the exception which proves the rule is hyperbole. It’s was a poor trade, one of the worst but certainly not the only one.
Again we seem to agree which is what is confusing for me. I believe the Rockets won the trade. The Nets probably overpaid for Harden but you seem to be content on arguing that both the Nets & Rockets won? I think? Agreed, it’s not always zero sum but your points seem quite juxtaposed and inconsistent.
Succinctly, in order to avoid you becoming confused again, my position is
1. Harden needs to proof he can regain his previous form and I don’t believe that will happen overnight.
2. Hardens conditioning hurt his trade value, perhaps The Rockets can convince the Sixers to part with Simmons & Maxey or Nets give up another asset such as Harris to appease Rockets further
Additionally a 3rd team may come in but his value undoubtedly dropped.
3. In light of the conditioning/attitude of Harden along with sub standard market conditions the Rockets did incredibly well. Either the Nets or Simmons centered Sixers deal was a win.
We’ll agree to disagree or won’t, not really sure but either way it’ll be interesting.
I am not sure why you think I am confused? You say a fully fit Harden could have garnered a greater return. I said above that Harden was fully fit 2 months ago and the Rockets did not get that better offer which you insist was out there. The Celtics were put off Harden for one reason, because Houston wanted Jaylen Brown to be a part of any deal that was made. Brown has come out of the gate in superb form, and I am sure this played into why Ainge felt that he was untradeable. Where are you getting (beside idle gossip on some podcast) that Ainge was put off by is attitude. I'll give you a quote from Ainge today
“We had numerous talks, but the price really wasn’t changing,” Ainge told 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Toucher & Rich” in the interview. “The price was really high for us, and it was something we really didn’t want to do. I’m not sure there was anybody — even the people within our organization that respected him and wanted him more than me, but I think unanimously, we decided it wasn’t the time for us and it wasn’t the price.” Source
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/01/15/celtics-james-harden-trade-package-report
I think Ainge was dead right not to part with Browne by the way. Harden could have made Boston a short-term title contender, but as the Celtics are right now with their young core, they are set to be a title contender for years.
My contention is that the Rockets have done incredibly well to get the haul they did. I think it has the potential to be a trade that works out for the Nets, but the stakes are much higher. They will need to pick up a few buy out guys to round out the squad, and try and shore up that defense. I think they can win the East, but ultimately will fall to the Lakers this year. But one injury to LeBron or AD changes everything. All three of Durant, Irving and Harden possess player options for 2022-23, meaning the Nets only have two guaranteed playoff runs with this trio. So it is truly a high wire move by Sean Marks.
Also you can't give examples of superstars being traded for their value because they aren't their. It literally never happens. Teams end up taking a punt that the picks they get back will turn into something coupled with a few decent role players. It simple does not happen.0 -
I am not sure why you think I am confused? You say a fully fit Harden could have garnered a greater return. I said above that Harden was fully fit 2 months ago and the Rockets did not get that better offer which you insist was out there. The Celtics were put off Harden for one reason, because Houston wanted Jaylen Brown to be a part of any deal that was made. Browne is this year living up to the promise he has shown and has come out of the gate in superb form, and I am sure this played into why Ainge felt that he was untradeable. Where are you getting (beside idle gossip on some podcast) that Ainge was put off by Hardens attitude. I'll give you a quote from Ainge today
“We had numerous talks, but the price really wasn’t changing,” Ainge told 98.5 The Sports Hub’s “Toucher & Rich” in the interview. “The price was really high for us, and it was something we really didn’t want to do. I’m not sure there was anybody — even the people within our organization that respected him and wanted him more than me, but I think unanimously, we decided it wasn’t the time for us and it wasn’t the price.” Source
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2021/01/15/celtics-james-harden-trade-package-report
I think Ainge was dead right not to part with Browne by the way. Harden could have made Boston a short-term title contender, but as the Celtics are right now with their young core, they are set to be a title contender for years.
My contention is that the Rockets have done incredibly well to get the haul they did. I think it has the potential to be a trade that works out for the Nets, but the stakes are much higher. They will need to pick up a few buy out guys to round out the squad, and try and shore up that defense. I think they can win the East, but ultimately will fall to the Lakers this year. But one injury to LeBron or AD changes everything. All three of Durant, Irving and Harden possess player options for 2022-23, meaning the Nets only have two guaranteed playoff runs with this trio. So it is truly a high wire move by Sean Marks.
With all due respect, you're drawing a false equivalence between the toxicity of the situation now and that which existed 2 months ago?
Yes, ESPN senior writer Zach Lowe, The Ringer owner Bill Simmons, Senior NBA writer Jackie McMullan & 538 senior writer Chris Herring, all idle gossip.
I'm sure Ainge will divulge everything in that interview
No relationship exists between value & price though of course :rolleyes:
No need to edit your post, I'll share some examples
The Los Angeles Clippers traded superstar forward Blake Griffin to the Detroit Pistons on Monday in exchange for Tobias Harris, Avery Bradley, Boban Marjanovic, a 2018 protected first-round pick and a 2019 second-round selection.
Thunder receive: Paul George
Pacers receive: Victor Oladipo, Domantas Sabonis
Debatable but two all stars for one.
Historically I agree that superstar trades have favoured those receiving the star but in recent years packages have been more favourable to those getting pieces.
This is likely to occur in the CP3 + picks for Westbrook, arguably, it has already.
Again feel free to check my previous posts, I mention explicitly that it is recent years that are changing the balance between these trades.
I'll add this one for posterity as I feel it'll age well for OKC
Thunder traded George to Clippers in a deal that netted Oklahoma City Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, first-round Clippers picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026, first-round Miami Heat picks in 2021 and 2023, and the right to swap first-round picks in 2023 and 2025.0 -
Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.
I was watching it also as it happens. What worried me most from a Bucks point of view was their inability to execute decent offensive sets in the last 2 minutes. It's still all iso with very poor ball movement. This is what undid them more than anything else in the playoffs. It's clear Giannis feels huge loyalty towards Budenhozer, but I have my doubts about his ability to put this team in a position to go all the way.
As you say they were fortunate not to get caught tonight with Giannis having such a poor night from the line. Middleton hitting 2 pull up 3s in a row saved them.
Mavs will certainly be contending in the West. Porzingis working his way back, and if he can stay healthy (a huge if) they will be a serious team. Doncic is starting to play himself into better shape also.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Potentially a not too distant future NBA finals tonight between Mavs & Bucks.
One takeaway that is worrisome:
I understand Giannis is continuing to build out his shot and as a result, his FT shooting appears to be suffering.
Prior to tonight he was shooting less than 62% from the line which is his career low. Tonight he goes 1/10 in a tight game.
The playoffs last year indicated he doesn't appear to simply be able to turn it on shooting 58% from the line.
I wonder at what point does the focus on technique become counterproductive to his development and success especially in the playoffs.
It's a difficult rope to walk while also having sights on an NBA finals.
Side note, I remember watching Giannis playing his first or second year at oracle, I had court side tickets through a friend of mine, first and last court side, I remember looking at him close up and being like holy crap but never thought he would turn into this type of player0 -
Carcharodon wrote: »Side note, I remember watching Giannis playing his first or second year at oracle, I had court side tickets through a friend of mine, first and last court side, I remember looking at him close up and being like holy crap but never thought he would turn into this type of player
Are you Reggie Evan's? :eek:
I sometimes think a basketball version of Cristiano Ronaldo, all the raw tools and potential.
He managed to bring so much of it together, testament to his next level work ethic.0 -
I like Bill Simmons mention of LeBron as an outside bet for MVP. Averaging 25/8/8 and may very well ramp it up another level as we move closer to spring time.0
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I like Bill Simmons mention of LeBron as an outside bet for MVP. Averaging 25/8/8 and may very well ramp it up another level as we move closer to spring time.
I actually flirted with Harden @ 40/1 for MVP when I saw Wall back at the start but thought better of it.
For MVP -outside of Russ's first triple double year- you effectively need home court in your conference to win it which is why people being so high on Luka doesn't make much sense to me.
Outside of Russ, I dont even know the last time an MVP has won without home court.
My only bet was Tyrese Maxey @50s for ROY, he's a big outside shout but numbers aren't dissimilar enough from Melo & Halliburton to justify the difference.0 -
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ButtersSuki wrote: »They will not trade Herro for Oladipo, not a chance.
Oladipo is a big upgrade on Herro right now but Herro is only owed 4.5-5m over the next 3 seasons so he certainly represents better value than the 20m or so you'd have to pay Oladipo.
I think we'd see Oladipos production up under Spoe and Herros drop almost anywhere else so some unknown element too.
For me it depends; if they genuinely felt they had real championship aspirations I could get on board with them moving in opposite directions as I think it's a good fit for the Heat.
That said, imo you're right that Herro straight up on his contract for Oladipo on his or what he'd garner isn't a play I can see Miami making.
Miami would need more but Herro just isnt someone I'd take off the table if the right deal featuring Oladipo + player/picks came along.0 -
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Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Oladipo is a big upgrade on Herro right now but Herro is only owed 4.5-5m over the next 3 seasons so he certainly represents better value than the 20m or so you'd have to pay Oladipo.
I think we'd see Oladipos production up under Spoe and Herros drop almost anywhere else so some unknown element too.
For me it depends; if they genuinely felt they had real championship aspirations I could get on board with them moving in opposite directions as I think it's a good fit for the Heat.
That said, imo you're right that Herro straight up on his contract for Oladipo on his or what he'd garner isn't a play I can see Miami making.
Miami would need more but Herro just isnt someone I'd take off the table if the right deal featuring Oladipo + player/picks came along.
Oladipo is an expiring contract, Herro is a core piece for the Heat and a key part of their future. Through 10 games he's putting up 18 points, 7 rebounds and 4 assists.(obviously the rebounds is over inflated and will revert back to 5is) In my opinion it would be insanity to do that deal, even if Houston sent picks/players with Oladipo. This guy is only 20 years of age, and was an integral part of a team that went to the NBA Finals. It's not going to happen especially as he can join Miami as a free agent in the summer. Yes Oladipo obviously would improve the Heat's chances at going all the way, but this Heat team is built for the long haul. They will be more than comfortable running with their guys, and maybe adding in a buyout guy.
That being said, if Oladipo turns up in Houston and starts making noise about being unhappy straight away and makes it clear that he wants out then you could see the Heat putting together a weaker deal and Houston taking it because they can't go through another circus. Whatever way you slice it, Herro will not be on the table0 -
Oladipo is an expiring contract, Herro is a core piece for the Heat and a key part of their future. Through 10 games he's putting up 18 points, 7 rebounds and 4 assists.(obviously the rebounds is over inflated and will revert back to 5is) In my opinion it would be insanity to do that deal, even if Houston sent picks/players with Oladipo. This guy is only 20 years of age, and was an integral part of a team that went to the NBA Finals. It's not going to happen especially as he can join Miami as a free agent in the summer. Yes Oladipo obviously would improve the Heat's chances at going all the way, but this Heat team is built for the long haul. They will be more than comfortable running with their guys, and maybe adding in a buyout guy.
That being said, if Oladipo turns up in Houston and starts making noise about being unhappy straight away and makes it clear that he wants out then you could see the Heat putting together a weaker deal and Houston taking it because they can't go through another circus. Whatever way you slice it, Herro will not be on the table
Yes, I understand he's an expiring contract, I addressed that element of it.
We agree Oladipo is a substantial upgrade and any deal would probably depend on the Heats ambitions. Right now
You feel he would never be on the table. I dont quite feel that strongly but I think it would take quite a lot for it to happen.
Difference comes down to how we rate him, numbers both regular season and playoffs aren't as kind as the narrative. The numbers you mentioned are often a fools errand and need to be looked at a little deeper which don't compare well at all to Oladipo both currently or historically.
I feel the Heat have put him in a very auspicious situation which I'm not sure translates elsewhere.
He's very good and a great pick up at that stage of the draft -mentioned that- I'm just not that high on him0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Yes, I understand he's an expiring contract, I addressed that element of it.
We agree Oladipo is a substantial upgrade and any deal would probably depend on the Heats ambitions. Right now
You feel he would never be on the table. I dont quite feel that strongly but I think it would take quite a lot for it to happen.
Difference comes down to how we rate him, numbers both regular season and playoffs aren't as kind as the narrative. The numbers you mentioned are often a fools errand and need to be looked at a little deeper which don't compare well at all to Oladipo both currently or historically.
I feel the Heat have put him in a very auspicious situation which I'm not sure translates elsewhere.
He's very good and a great pick up at that stage of the draft -mentioned that- I'm just not that high on him
I see it is being reported that Oladipo is not at all happy with being dealt to Houston, essentially going from a team he does not want to be on to another such team. Seems he does want to end up on Miami. If you are the Heat you have to take the long view here. Oladipo would be an upgrade but not a significant enough one to give up a 20 year old Herro, who is only in year 2 and looks likely to have an amazing career. The team is well positioned, as they can just wait it out and get him for nothing in the summer. Nunn and a first rounder could well be enough for Oladipo, Houston will not want to lose him for nothing.0 -
Oladipo would be an upgrade but not a significant enough one to give up a 20 year old Herro, who is only in year 2 and looks likely to have an amazing career.
This is where our opinions diverge.
PER 12.5
OPBM -1.8
DPBM -1.6
VORP -0.1 anything below 0.0 means you're less valuable than replacement level
WS/48 0.33
Certainly not all about numbers and as I said he's good but not good enough to be untouchable in my opinion.
As I mentioned the Heat have put him in very auspicious situations and they are still the numbers.
You can get a more in depth analysis here:
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Fat James Harden warming up tonight0
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A very good half from Harden. Unfortunately, Joe Harris > James Harden so he’ll have to be traded and build around Joe
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Harris is going to be benefit so much from Harden. Going to get a lot of open looks and Harden one of the best passers in the league will keep finding him. Fun watching the Nets in that half.0
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A very good half from Harden. Unfortunately, Joe Harris > James Harden so he’ll have to be traded and build around Joe
Not exactly the instantaneous return that we were guaranteed but he's played pretty well.
4 TO's thus far so perhaps a quadruple double on the cards.
Nash was funny at the start when asked about a minutes restriction and laughed it off in a clear fun needle about his conditioning.
Hard to know where Kyrie fits when looking at this.0 -
Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »Not exactly the instantaneous return that we were guaranteed but he's played pretty well.
4 TO's thus far so perhaps a quadruple double on the cards.
Nash was funny at the start when asked about a minutes restriction and laughed it off in a clear fun needle about his conditioning.
Hard to know where Kyrie fits when looking at this.
No one said instantaneous in a first game sense. Clearly what was meant was when he returns to fitness abs sheds the fat, which he will do.0 -
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Livia Scarce Peppercorn wrote: »This is where our opinions diverge.
PER 12.5
OPBM -1.8
DPBM -1.6
VORP -0.1 anything below 0.0 means you're less valuable than replacement level
WS/48 0.33
Certainly not all about numbers and as I said he's good but not good enough to be untouchable in my opinion.
As I mentioned the Heat have put him in very auspicious situations and they are still the numbers.
You can get a more in depth analysis here:
I’m actually beginning to wonder are you trolling at this stage.0
This discussion has been closed.
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