Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

Capt'n Midnight · 25-11-2020 9:10pm

Brian? wrote: »

Trump in 2016 fooled these people into thinking he could bring back well paying manufacturing jobs. He couldn’t, no one can.

Back in the day US corporations used to make small margins and taxes were high so a lot of money was reinvested in improving productivity.

Nowadays margins are closer to 50% and most of the profit goes to shareholders.

With margins like that you might as well get everything drop shipped from China.

Most of the worlds tax havens are UK protectorates. Now that they are out of the EU it'll get interesting.

However, the US uses a different scam. Hold your profits in the US Virgin Islands until there's a tax amnesty and then repatriate them.

So if the EU and US do a tit for tat on Boeing vs. Airbus the question of US corporations avoiding tax could become an issue. And the EU can and does fine corporations Billions.

Anyway , under Trump's presidency corporate welfare continued. Compare the covid payments to Industry and Joe Public. How much did Billionaires get in tax cuts ? And how much will Joe Public get as a result of Trump and GOP ?

Brian? · 25-11-2020 9:43pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

My post was in agreement with you.

There is however a group of posters that regularly lament that the dems could win back the 'blue collar' voter if only they'd move further to the left on a number of issues (today's case being union support), when at this point it is obvious that these voters simply aren't coming back to the dems unless they discard other core progressive beliefs.

Ah I see. I agree, there are far too many American obsessed with social issues to the detriment of their own economic prosperity.

reforger · 25-11-2020 10:20pm

As expected, Trump has announced a full pardon for his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

Headshot · 25-11-2020 10:22pm

reforger wrote: »

As expected, Trump has announced a full pardon for his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

absolutely disgusting and corrupt as ****

Thank **** this man will be out in his ass come Jan and hopefully the law and creditors catch up with Trump

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-11-2020 10:22pm

reforger wrote: »

As expected, Trump has announced a full pardon for his former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn.

Unfortunately I think we will see many more over the next few weeks, The Trump zealots will lap it up of.course, you already see it on Twitter where they are calling Flynn a "true patriot".

Itssoeasy · 25-11-2020 10:31pm

So I see that general Michael Flynn has been pardoned in full. Not unexpected but still why he lied to the fbi and possibly because of who he lied to them for has never fully come out. As far as I can remember there was nothing exactly wrong with the incoming NSA talking to foreign governments prior to the inauguration on general stuff. The issue was why he felt he needed to lie to the FBI about these activities if there was nothing to hide.

Also, the fact that not once but twice general Flynn plead guilty to the charge of lying to the FBI in open court when if he felt there was no guilt, then plead not guilty.

StringerBell · 25-11-2020 11:07pm

We have entered the final stretch for this cabaal with that pardon. The real fun will start when he attempts to pardon himself, presumably Manafort will be home before long. Mike Flynn, in every sense of the word a traitor to his country and his escaping justice is heralded by many who would think themselves patriotic. Such a backwards worldview in so many areas of the States. I just feel pity for them for the most part, 30 years of Fox news and right wing media consumption seems to have had the same impact lead in the drinking water would have had over the same period of time.

aloyisious · 26-11-2020 1:04am

Looking at Trump's period on popular TV shows, it's probable that's where he learned that gullible people can be conned by the medium of TV. It look's likely that others agreed with him and played along with him to get him elected. He's still using the medium to try persuade the gullible that he was cheated in the election, today still claiming he won it.

looksee · 26-11-2020 10:37am

The Supreme Court has spoken, and decided that NY's Cuomo's anti-Covid regulations are unconstitutional in so far as they apply to religious meetings.

All the things that need attention and they are arguing that if a bike shop is free to operate then religious services should be allowed to go ahead. Like you have several hundred people gathering in a bike shop.

They are beyond hope, leave them at it. Presumably (their) God will prevent people who attend these services from getting the disease that He visited on the world, but they may well be free to carry it home to the vulnerable.

Meanwhile Trump is dismantling the place as he leaves.

Let them get on with it, there is only so far you can concern yourself with stupidity.

robinph · 26-11-2020 11:02am

looksee wrote: »

The Supreme Court has spoken, and decided that NY's Cuomo's anti-Covid regulations are unconstitutional in so far as they apply to religious meetings.

All the things that need attention and they are arguing that if a bike shop is free to operate then religious services should be allowed to go ahead. Like you have several hundred people gathering in a bike shop.

They are beyond hope, leave them at it. Presumably (their) God will prevent people who attend these services from getting the disease that He visited on the world, but they may well be free to carry it home to the vulnerable.

Meanwhile Trump is dismantling the place as he leaves.

Let them get on with it, there is only so far you can concern yourself with stupidity.

But much like the Trump claimed "win" in the case about how close election observers were allowed to get (we want to watch the vote - OK stand there - we'll go to court - OK you can watch the vote from over there - Yay, we win) the case in New York no longer applies anyway as the restrictions don't currently apply as the restrictions have been lifted.

Guess if they need to bring them back in they can just close the bike shops as well and then there is no "discrimination".

Roanmore · 26-11-2020 11:07am

They are nearly hitting 2000 deaths a day now which is shocking.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 11:07am

StringerBell wrote: »

We have entered the final stretch for this cabaal with that pardon. The real fun will start when he attempts to pardon himself, presumably Manafort will be home before long. Mike Flynn, in every sense of the word a traitor to his country and his escaping justice is heralded by many who would think themselves patriotic. Such a backwards worldview in so many areas of the States. I just feel pity for them for the most part, 30 years of Fox news and right wing media consumption seems to have had the same impact lead in the drinking water would have had over the same period of time.

Is there not a real risk for Trump in these pardons?

If Flynn has been pardoned , he can now be deposed about the whole thing and he cannot plead the 5th etc.

I suspect that Manafort will get a commutation not a pardon like Stone, which ensures he has to keep his mouth shut.

looksee · 26-11-2020 11:25am

robinph wrote: »

But much like the Trump claimed "win" in the case about how close election observers were allowed to get (we want to watch the vote - OK stand there - we'll go to court - OK you can watch the vote from over there - Yay, we win) the case in New York no longer applies anyway as the restrictions don't currently apply as the restrictions have been lifted.

Guess if they need to bring them back in they can just close the bike shops as well and then there is no "discrimination".

No mention on the Mayor's twitter feed, but the NY Times seems to suggest they are open, its hard to keep up!

EltonJohn69 · 26-11-2020 11:35am

Sloppy Steve is definitely next, but can Trump actually pardon himself ? He just has to admit guilt ?

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 12:13pm

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Sloppy Steve is definitely next, but can Trump actually pardon himself ? He just has to admit guilt ?

He doesn't have to "admit guilt" to anything - Precedent set for that from the Nixon pardon , but it remains a massive legal question as to whether he can pardon himself.

There are even those that are questioning the legality of him pardoning Flynn & Stone (and who ever else he pardons in the next few weeks) as they are being pardoned for crimes that had impacts on Trump himself.

If he tries it , it will absolutely definitely be challenged in Court.

Leroy42 · 26-11-2020 12:19pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He doesn't have to "admit guilt" to anything - Precedent set for that from the Nixon pardon , but it remains a massive legal question as to whether he can pardon himself.

There are even those that are questioning the legality of him pardoning Flynn & Stone (and who ever else he pardons in the next few weeks) as they are being pardoned for crimes that had impacts on Trump himself.

If he tries it , it will absolutely definitely be challenged in Court.

One thing that surely we have learned from Trump at this stage is that if it isn't specifically prohibited then he will do it and let others worry about challenging it.

TBF, he has won nearly every time he has used this option, there has not been much pushback no matter what he did.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 12:26pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

One thing that surely we have learned from Trump at this stage is that if it isn't specifically prohibited then he will do it and let others worry about challenging it.

TBF, he has won nearly every time he has used this option, there has not been much pushback no matter what he did.

Perhaps , but he will no longer be President and will no longer have the protections that that office provides nor will he have the DOJ going to bat for him.

Leroy42 · 26-11-2020 12:30pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Perhaps , but he will no longer be President and will no longer have the protections that that office provides nor will he have the DOJ going to bat for him.

Sure, but he will at the time. Is anyone really going to go to court about Flynn? I would wager no.

And if Trump pardons himself, it gets so tied up in legalise, that nobody really knows the actual answer, so it would end up all the way to SCOTUS.

I just don't see it happening. GOP, while they may not want to protect him as much, still have 74m voters to worry about losing. Trump will play this card that the GOP have abandoned him and that won't sit well with many voters who will continue to believe that the election itself was robbed, so really Trump was only protecting himself for a deep state out to get him, and by extension, them.

listermint · 26-11-2020 12:34pm

One thing im very much looking forward to with the demise of trump is the end of the absolute mind meltingly stupid nicknames for all asunder that oppose him.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 12:38pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sure, but he will at the time. Is anyone really going to go to court about Flynn? I would wager no.

And if Trump pardons himself, it gets so tied up in legalise, that nobody really knows the actual answer, so it would end up all the way to SCOTUS.

I just don't see it happening. GOP, while they may not want to protect him as much, still have 74m voters to worry about losing. Trump will play this card that the GOP have abandoned him and that won't sit well with many voters who will continue to believe that the election itself was robbed, so really Trump was only protecting himself for a deep state out to get him, and by extension, them.

Don't disagree , it will be an absolute mess if he does it.

As you can see from the tweet from Gaetz that he shared - The angle is absolutely going to be "I need it to defend myself from the Angry Liberal Mob and the Deep-state " etc.

The contortions that the the GOP would have to knot themselves into would be of epic proportions.

But the precedent it would set were it allowed to stand would be horrendous which is why I think that if he did it and it was challenged in the SCOTUS, it would get over-turned.

Even given how Partisan the SCOTUS now seems to be , they would see the future risks of this.

If a President can pardon themselves , could they ever be impeached?

Leroy42 · 26-11-2020 12:41pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Don't disagree , it will be an absolute mess if he does it.

As you can see from the tweet from Gaetz that he shared - The angle is absolutely going to be "I need it to defend myself from the Angry Liberal Mob and the Deep-state " etc.

The contortions that the the GOP would have to knot themselves into would be of epic proportions.

But the precedent it would set were it allowed to stand would be horrendous which is why I think that if he did it and it was challenged in the SCOTUS, it would get over-turned.

Even given how Partisan the SCOTUS now seems to be , they would see the future risks of this.

If a President can pardon themselves , could they ever be impeached?

Just on this, and I am open to correction, but wouldn't SCOTUS be determining whether is was legal or not, regardless of the implications? That is for legislators to deal with, SCOTUS can only deal with the law as it stands.

From my understanding, there is nothing that prohibits Trump from pardoning himself (there is nothing to say he can either) and thus on what grounds could SCOTUS overturn it?

I don't know, maybe they could, but Trump will be banking on them not being able to, or if they are it would take so long and cause so much hassle that it wouldn't matter to him.

EltonJohn69 · 26-11-2020 12:52pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He doesn't have to "admit guilt" to anything - Precedent set for that from the Nixon pardon , but it remains a massive legal question as to whether he can pardon himself.

There are even those that are questioning the legality of him pardoning Flynn & Stone (and who ever else he pardons in the next few weeks) as they are being pardoned for crimes that had impacts on Trump himself.

If he tries it , it will absolutely definitely be challenged in Court.

Great, sounds like we have enough material for another season of the Trump show anyway

aloyisious · 26-11-2020 1:06pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Just on this, and I am open to correction, but wouldn't SCOTUS be determining whether is was legal or not, regardless of the implications? That is for legislators to deal with, SCOTUS can only deal with the law as it stands.

From my understanding, there is nothing that prohibits Trump from pardoning himself (there is nothing to say he can either) and thus on what grounds could SCOTUS overturn it?

I don't know, maybe they could, but Trump will be banking on them not being able to, or if they are it would take so long and cause so much hassle that it wouldn't matter to him.

It might be worth their honours keeping in mind the statement he made about himself personally going unto a New York Street and shooting another person and no one caring about it, then for them to imagine the fate of that fellow citizen he theorized about shooting while they ponder his notion that he can issue a presidential pardon to himself without a fear of some judge saying "whoa there, that's outside the bounds of presidential executive privilege". There has to be a limit put on the craziness-level he's brought the presidency to presently and not let him continue with his B/S "I was only joking" lies. They are duty-bound to call a halt to his irrational imagining of presidential power limits.

Carfacemandog · 26-11-2020 1:16pm

All this self pardoning talk is kind of moot anyone, as pardons have no impact upon state trials/sentences and the State Department of New York is likely to be laying charges in Trump within hours of him finishing his term (12pm, Jan 20th).

astrofool · 26-11-2020 1:19pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He doesn't have to "admit guilt" to anything - Precedent set for that from the Nixon pardon , but it remains a massive legal question as to whether he can pardon himself.

There are even those that are questioning the legality of him pardoning Flynn & Stone (and who ever else he pardons in the next few weeks) as they are being pardoned for crimes that had impacts on Trump himself.

If he tries it , it will absolutely definitely be challenged in Court.

I imagine nothing will happen until Barr is gone and a new AG is installed.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 2:21pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Just on this, and I am open to correction, but wouldn't SCOTUS be determining whether is was legal or not, regardless of the implications? That is for legislators to deal with, SCOTUS can only deal with the law as it stands.

From my understanding, there is nothing that prohibits Trump from pardoning himself (there is nothing to say he can either) and thus on what grounds could SCOTUS overturn it?

I don't know, maybe they could, but Trump will be banking on them not being able to, or if they are it would take so long and cause so much hassle that it wouldn't matter to him.

A lot depends on what he tries to pardon himself for.

If he limits it to his time in office , then maybe it might stand - But most of his problems are from before he was Elected.

The Cohen Campaign finance violations case along with a potential multitude of charges relating to his business activities, some of which must reach the level of being Federal crimes are all from before he became POTUS.

Using the Nixon pardon as a template if all he does is pardon himself for the period 20/01/16 to 20/01/20 then he protects himself from Hatch act /Emolument clause or similar kinds of charges , not much else.

What he needs is a "Pardon for all previous crimes" and I simply do not see how him giving that to himself could ever hold legal water.

A Pence switcheroo then a Pardon whilst utterly abhorrent, probably has a better chance of being considered "legal".

Either way he is absolutely going to utterly debase the office of President quite a bit more before he leaves , that's for certain.

hotmail.com · 26-11-2020 2:52pm

It'll be interesting to see if Biden commits to abolishing presidential pardons.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 2:57pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if Biden commits to abolishing presidential pardons.

Is it within his power to do so?

Is it not in the constitution?

I don't have a problem with the concept of a Presidential Pardon - They do have a place , but the decision should not be made by the President alone.

The President can sign it , but the decision should come from some kind of independent review body.

ZeroThreat · 26-11-2020 3:03pm

I wonder if Trump pardons Ghislaine Maxwell, or is that even legally possible?

hotmail.com · 26-11-2020 3:07pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Is it within his power to do so?

Is it not in the constitution?

I don't have a problem with the concept of a Presidential Pardon - They do have a place , but the decision should not be made by the President alone.

The President can sign it , but the decision should come from some kind of independent review body.

Well that would dilute the power and in effect would abolish the privilege. It's unlikely he'll commit to any changes and the pardon will continue to get abused.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 3:16pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Well that would dilute the power and in effect would abolish the privilege. It's unlikely he'll commit to any changes and the pardon will continue to get abused.

As I asked in my previous post - Is it in his power to change it?

It doesn't look like it is , it's part of Article 2 of the Constitution.

So Biden could request a change but it requires a 2/3rd Majority in both houses of Congress and approval by 2/3rds of the States

Hard to see that being successful.

hotmail.com · 26-11-2020 3:22pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

As I asked in my previous post - Is it in his power to change it?

It doesn't look like it is , it's part of Article 2 of the Constitution.

So Biden could request a change but it requires a 2/3rd Majority in both houses of Congress and approval by 2/3rds of the States

Hard to see that being successful.

Perhaps he'll commit not to use it then.

Quin_Dub · 26-11-2020 3:30pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Perhaps he'll commit not to use it then.

It's not the use that's the problem , it's the abuse.

Trump has used it less than any other President for over 100 years , but he has taken the veritable pi$$ with it when he has used it.

Arpaio , Dinesh d'Sousa and now Flynn with a whole bunch more coming before January 20th.

A simple change that Biden could make would be to publish the reports from the "Office of the Pardon Attorney" who are the group supposed to review all Pardon requests and to provide a "non binding" recommendation to the President.

That way at least you could see definitively which Pardons did not meet basic levels of reasonableness.

listermint · 26-11-2020 3:40pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Perhaps he'll commit not to use it then.

is this the new measure biden by metrics we never measured trump by??

robinph · 26-11-2020 3:40pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

A simple change that Biden could make would be to publish the reports...

But as seen from Trump and his taxes, just because it's what everyone else has done means nothing if the next person decides not to bother. Even if things are set out clearly in the existing rules (such as the presidents business can't profit from them being president) if the next person decides to just ignore the rules then nobody is prepared to do anything about it.

pixelburp · 26-11-2020 5:03pm

listermint wrote: »

One thing im very much looking forward to with the demise of trump is the end of the absolute mind meltingly stupid nicknames for all asunder that oppose him.

You know, I hear what you mean. There have been so many more egregious examples of Trump's actions worth chastising but his infantile pettiness, coupled with his presentation of textbook Dunning-Kruger, often caused the biggest eye rolls. I think it was the knowledge he believed his snark to be peak witticisms, probably bolstered by sycophants like Stephen Miller claiming to the world with a straight face Trump was a master orator.

froog · 26-11-2020 6:07pm

Pardoning himself won't protect him from state cases as far as i know, which were always the real danger for him. I believe theres quite a few in new york waiting for him.

froog · 26-11-2020 6:09pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

I wonder if Trump pardons Ghislaine Maxwell, or is that even legally possible?

Now that would be real interesting.

Timberrrrrrrr · 26-11-2020 6:10pm

froog wrote: »

Pardoning himself won't protect him from state cases as far as i know, which were always the real danger for him. I believe theres quite a few in new york waiting for him.

Just read this tweet and I'm wondering would this be possible for trump to pull off?

https://twitter.com/CaslerNoel/status/1331778652489572354?s=19

aloyisious · 26-11-2020 6:25pm

astrofool wrote: »

I imagine nothing will happen until Barr is gone and a new AG is installed.

Speaking of Barr, the DOJ is appealing to the USSC the decision of another court that it cant stand-in and take over defence of the rape case a woman took against Trump. The DOJ is trying to use [again] the excuse that it is acting in defence of the presidents power to work without having to look to other matters.

Water John · 26-11-2020 8:57pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Perhaps he'll commit not to use it then.

Amazing how Trump's abuse of his power to pardon, you manage to twist into something to attack Biden with.

Professor Moriarty · 26-11-2020 9:20pm

It occurs to me that everyone Trump has pardoned, or will pardon, probably has serious dirt on him. So Ghislaine Maxwell could well be next.

VinLieger · 26-11-2020 9:41pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It occurs to me that everyone Trump has pardoned, or will pardon, probably has serious dirt on him. So Ghislaine Maxwell could well be next.

If he does it will basically be an admission of guilt as regards the suspected Epstein shanigans

Professor Moriarty · 26-11-2020 9:43pm

VinLieger wrote: »

If he does it will basically be an admission of guilt as regards the suspected Epstein shanigans

And if he doesn't she might exact revenge by leaking info. Delicious.

TheRepentent · 26-11-2020 9:45pm

froog wrote: »

Pardoning himself won't protect him from state cases as far as i know, which were always the real danger for him. I believe theres quite a few in new york waiting for him.

oh yeah...gonna enjoy him squirm.

abff · 26-11-2020 10:49pm

TheRepentent wrote: »

oh yeah...gonna enjoy him squirm.

Yes, it would be lovely to see the bully get his comeuppance!

Whether it will actually happen remains to be seen. But the key thing has to be removing his malignant presence from the political landscape. Everything else is insignificant in comparison.

26000 Elephants · 26-11-2020 10:58pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

And if he doesn't she might exact revenge by leaking info. Delicious.

The next 12 months will be better craic than the last 4 years! So much has yet to come out.

fun times.

StringerBell · 26-11-2020 11:31pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

Well that would dilute the power and in effect would abolish the privilege. It's unlikely he'll commit to any changes and the pardon will continue to get abused.

How can he abolish it?

The presidential pardon is written into the constitution, so Biden can't just change it.

The wording of it is open to interpretation of course but generally speaking I don't think you can grant yourself anything so would be interested to see how that plays out if he tries it. The simpler safer play is to just have Pence pardon him.

What.Now · 27-11-2020 12:03am

abff wrote: »

Yes, it would be lovely to see the bully get his comeuppance!

Whether it will actually happen remains to be seen. But the key thing has to be removing his malignant presence from the political landscape. Everything else is insignificant in comparison.

I agree to a large extent BUT the **** he has left behind must be cleaned up or it will fester to what might become a monster that nobody can control.

What.Now · 27-11-2020 12:09am

26000 Elephants wrote: »

The next 12 months will be better craic than the last 4 years! So much has yet to come out.

fun times.

It would be if it wasn't so serious.

It can't be a case of he did something so ****osis that we'll put it out there and laugh at how crazy it is and laugh at the d**kh**d getting time.

If 70+ million are to be shown the damage he has caused the country and the world those people must be guided and not laughed at.

Remember we have all gone down some rabbit hole at some stage in our lives.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VIII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

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