Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

An tAthair MacSuibhne · 01-05-2013 10:15pm #1

Have you ever wondered what kind of impact Gaelscoils are having on Irish culture? It seems as though more and more of these schools are popping up around the country and the trend is becoming widespread in Scotland too. I was lucky enough to go to one in the nineties. One of the incentives to get parents to enrol their children in the school which might seem shocking to you today was that physical punishment would be not used as a method to educate children and Catholic Church interference was kept at a bare minimum. In my class alone there were 3-4 students from various Protestant denominations. What makes me curious is whether Gaelscoils are impacting on students political identity?

pwurple · 17-07-2013 5:01pm

I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.

When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".

It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.

robp · 21-07-2013 3:03pm

pwurple wrote: »

I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.

When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".

It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.

Its hardly the typical attitude of parents though is it. Non national families do participate in Gaelscoileanna and very much so in Catholic schools. In my neck of the woods protestant schools have a stronger association with Chelsea tractors although their high educational standards deserves credit.
If anything the country the needs more Gaelscoileanna to utterly normalise they socially.

ivyQ · 06-05-2014 8:55pm

God I never thought such politics were involved in Gael scoils ((did I spell it right ?))

I have enrolled my youngest in one because I like the thought of keeping the language alive , I dont speak it so am hoping we can learn together ...maybe Im being over optimistic on that one ...

I have lived abroad for many years and always felt ashamed when asked why couldn't I speak my native language by other nationals who find the thought of not speaking your native language obscene ....I can see their point though !I find it astonishing when I see people who simply dismiss it as useless and na ,

chughes · 06-05-2014 9:25pm

ivyQ wrote: »

I have lived abroad for many years and always felt ashamed when asked why couldn't I speak my native language by other nationals who find the thought of not speaking your native language obscene ....I can see their point though !I find it astonishing when I see people who simply dismiss it as useless and na ,

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

ivyQ · 06-05-2014 9:38pm

chughes wrote: »

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

Thats true yes I know ...but Im just telling it how it was for me ..wishing isnt going to change it but maybe a change in attitude and proactive steps to reclaim a major part of our culture will

robp · 10-05-2014 12:47am

chughes wrote: »

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

chughes · 10-05-2014 10:33am

robp wrote: »

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

robp · 13-05-2014 9:19am

chughes wrote: »

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

It was poorly managed for a long time. The rise of Irish speaking schools was achieved in the voluntary sector. In the last 24 years the number of pupils attending Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht has tripled. If that growth could be maintained Irish would have a very healthy presence in the country.

chughes · 13-05-2014 4:02pm

robp wrote: »

It was poorly managed for a long time. The rise of Irish speaking schools was achieved in the voluntary sector. In the last 24 years the number of pupils attending Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht has tripled. If that growth could be maintained Irish would have a very healthy presence in the country.

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

robp · 14-05-2014 2:03pm

chughes wrote: »

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

I imagine that those who go through Irish secondary schools would be happy to use it but studies show they will always revert to English if they are with people who don't have the language.

dubhthach · 15-05-2014 2:22pm

chughes wrote: »

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

Scottish Gaidhlig is in a worse position then Irish, as for Welsh it's a mandatory school subject up to the age of 16. About 20% of Welsh primary school children are in Welsh medium schools. In case of english speaking schools they use specialised welsh language teachers (as far as I know). One of major issues in Irish system if you ask me is that teachers are "Jack of all trades". There's no reason why a standard size primary school can't have say one specialised teacher whose sole job is to teach Irish across the different classes.

Welsh by way declined hugely during the 20th century bottoming out at about 19% of population in 1991 (from 50% in 1901), it's increased to about 21%, part of reason sometimes associated with it's stabilisation is the implementation of compulsion in education system back in 2000.

I remember looking at the numbers a couple years ago, I believe at the time that there was only about 1/3rd of places in 1st year in Gaelcólaistí that would be required if every child in 6th class in all the Gaelscoileanna wanted to continue their education in Irish at secondary level. There are a number of counties for example which have Gaelscoileanna but have no Gaelchólaistí.

robp · 15-05-2014 3:30pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Scottish Gaidhlig is in a worse position then Irish, as for Welsh it's a mandatory school subject up to the age of 16. About 20% of Welsh primary school children are in Welsh medium schools. In case of english speaking schools they use specialised welsh language teachers (as far as I know). One of major issues in Irish system if you ask me is that teachers are "Jack of all trades". There's no reason why a standard size primary school can't have say one specialised teacher whose sole job is to teach Irish across the different classes.

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

dubhthach wrote: »

I believe at the time that there was only about 1/3rd of places in 1st year in Gaelcólaistí that would be required if every child in 6th class in all the Gaelscoileanna wanted to continue their education in Irish at secondary level. There are a number of counties for example which have Gaelscoileanna but have no Gaelchólaistí.

Quite starling figures. Even Gaelscoileanna are not always available. Much of the midlands have no Gaelscoileanna. I am convinced major expansion of Gaelscoileanna and Gaelchólaistí is the only way forward.

dubhthach · 15-05-2014 3:52pm

robp wrote: »

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

Quite starling figures. Even Gaelscoileanna are not always available. Much of the midlands have no Gaelscoileanna. I am convinced major expansion of Gaelscoileanna and Gaelchólaistí is the only way forward.

Sure but it has to be driven by parental demand, the success of Gaelscoil movement is that if anything the "forces of the state" have been opposed to it (no new Gaelscoileanna authorised for several years etc.) there's no point the Dept of Education saying:

Area A requires a school (due to Census) we are only giving them a Gaelscoil, in reality I do think things such as census would be good oppurtunity to gather data on parental demand for schools. In general whenever a new Gaelscoil is announced there's always demand for them.

We have to remember though that the figures in Wales in sense reflect the fact that 20% of population are daily habitual speakers. In other words a big geographic chunk of wales comprimes "Y Fro Gymraeg" -- what we would term "Fíor Gaeltacht".

A child attending both Gaelscoil and Gaelchólaiste will get about 10k hours of language contact during their education, you need about 5k for reasonable fluency. The average child in a english speaking school gets about 1,200 hours over course of their education.

eire4 · 13-06-2014 10:36pm

chughes wrote: »

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

I would agree. The way the government has managed the language has been a disaster for the most part. There does though seem to be a solid demand for more Gaelscoil which is encouraging.

katydid · 23-01-2015 2:22pm

robp wrote: »

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

Not necessarily, if it's not used outside the schools. The vast majority of children in Gaelscoileanna leave their Irish at the school gate.

katydid · 23-01-2015 2:24pm

robp wrote: »

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

The Welsh use the language to express their national identity. We don't need to as we are an independent country with a strong identity, so there's no such momentum.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 9:39pm

It will be interesting to see what impact the growth of Gaelscoileanna have in the coming years as the kids going through the schools now move into adult life. Personally I think it is very positive culturally for Ireland.

katydid · 23-01-2015 9:42pm

eire4 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what impact the growth of Gaelscoileanna have in the coming years as the kids going through the schools now move into adult life. Personally I think it is very positive culturally for Ireland.

What culture do they get there that they don't get in other schools.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 10:08pm

katydid wrote: »

What culture do they get there that they don't get in other schools.

Personally I would not look at things in a negative light. Language is such a vital part of how people think and express themselves that to have a growing number of Irish people growing up fluent in at least Irish and English enriches and grows us culturally.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:10pm

eire4 wrote: »

Personally I would not look at things in a negative light. Language is such a vital part of how people think and express themselves that to have a growing number of Irish people growing up fluent in at least Irish and English enriches and grows us culturally.

Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:17pm

Has there been any study regarding the fluency or use of Irish of those educated through the Gaelscoilleanna when they moved on to second or even third level?

Are the parents of GS kids interested in the language and can they/do they speak it at home all the time? Is TV constantly on TG4? I just wondered.

Seems to me to be negligible. But what do I know?

Gaelscoilleanna are to me there to keep the local yobs and various visitors/immigrants out.

Two schools within two miles or so in my area. One, the local National School, got a good rep. Full of everyone, black, white, Chinese etc. Easy to get to on public transport, and local to many even if walking.

The other school is full of white kids. No public transport. SUV and car drop offs every morning and evening.

This sounds like the Deep South in the sixties to me.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 10:32pm

katydid wrote: »

Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.

Every little bit is a positive and I am very happy to see the growth in Gaelscoileanna. In 1971 there were only 11 Gaelscoileanna at primary level and 5 at secondary level outside Gaeltacht areas. In 2013 the numbers were 177 and 40.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:35pm

eire4 wrote: »

Every little bit is a positive and I am very happy to see the growth in Gaelscoileanna. In 1971 there were only 11 Gaelscoileanna at primary level and 5 at secondary level outside Gaeltacht areas. In 2013 the numbers were 177 and 40.

But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?

Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?

It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.

Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?

It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.

dubhthach · 23-01-2015 10:36pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The other school is full of white kids. No public transport. SUV and car drop offs every morning and evening.

This sounds like the Deep South in the sixties to me.

That's a serious allegation, if you are aware of criminal behaviour (discrimination based on skin colour of children) you should report it to the Gardaí, of course if there isn't any such behaviour you'd could be liable under libel laws for such an allegation.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:40pm

dubhthach wrote: »

That's a serious allegation, if you are aware of criminal behaviour (discrimination based on skin colour of children) you should report it to the Gardaí, of course if there isn't any such behaviour you'd could be liable under libel laws for such an allegation.

What crime should he report?

dubhthach · 23-01-2015 10:46pm

katydid wrote: »

What crime should he report?

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:54pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Knock yourself out my dear.

There are GS where there are only white IRISH KIDS. That is the reality.

There is no discrimination on behalf of the school, it is merely that some people are not interested, or feel their kids are still learning English and Irish would be a tad too difficult for them, and there is the snob value of such exclusivity aswell.

I'm trembling in my boots now that I could be arrested for saying something that happens. I am not inciting hatred, nor are the schools, it is just the set up.

It would be similar to an English speaking Irish parent not being willing to send their kid to a Chinese/Russian speaking school here.

But get the handcuffs out for me why don't you.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:58pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Just because a school has all white students doesn't mean there is racial discrimination. It would be very hard to prove.

man98 · 23-01-2015 11:11pm

As a former student of a Gaelscoil I can feel it's only good. You always got a couple of snobs but I didn't notice much of the Chelsea tractors, I walked or cycled. In the end I chose not to go on to the MeÃ¡nscoil in the area though.

katydid · 23-01-2015 11:20pm

man98 wrote: »

As a former student of a Gaelscoil I can feel it's only good. You always got a couple of snobs but I didn't notice much of the Chelsea tractors, I walked or cycled. In the end I chose not to go on to the MeÃ¡nscoil in the area though.

Out of interest, why did you choose not to go the Meanscoil?

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:08am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?

Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?

It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.

Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?

It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.

The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.

katydid · 24-01-2015 12:12am

The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.

That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:15am

katydid wrote: »

Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.

The whole idea is that you facilitate children with the ability to use the language in every day life. That's what the op wants for her child. That's what many parents all over the country want for their children. That is also the reason for setting up these schools.

katydid · 24-01-2015 12:18am

ezra_pound wrote: »

The whole idea is that you facilitate children with the ability to use the language in every day life. That's what the op wants for her child. That's what many parents all over the country want for their children. That is also the reason for setting up these schools.

Yes, I know that. But unless that translates into using the language in everyday life, it's pointless. And for most kids it doesn't. As I said before, most leave the language at the school gate and revert directly to English.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:20am

katydid wrote: »

The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.

That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.

Well no. It depends on competition.

Gael scoileanna have their own admissions policies which of course prioritises parent and child ability in the language.

If there is competition, and there is a lot at the moment because of the baby boom, and the good reputation many of these schools have, there are few children who will get in if their parents can't show even a basic interest in the language.

Of course there are many foreigners who have good Irish or have made efforts to learn a bit and they are likewise at an advantage for this reason.

man98 · 24-01-2015 12:28am

katydid wrote:

Out of interest, why did you choose not to go the Meanscoil?

Tiny classes, it's 15km up the road, the bus there left 8.30 or so and the school I chose is a 7 minute walk. Simplicity, way more choices for subjects elsewhere. While out of choice I'd still go back again, it was a bit sheltered. Big school hits hard...

katydid · 24-01-2015 12:30am

ezra_pound wrote: »

That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.

Well no. It depends on competition.

Gael scoileanna have their own admissions policies which of course prioritises parent and child ability in the language.

If there is competition, and there is a lot at the moment because of the baby boom, and the good reputation many of these schools have, there are few children who will get in if their parents can't show even a basic interest in the language.

Of course there are many foreigners who have good Irish or have made efforts to learn a bit and they are likewise at an advantage for this reason.[/QUOTE]

Well yes. I see the Gaelscoil near me and kids of different ethnic origins go there. I live in a fairly mixed middle class area. I hear and see the parents waiting when I am out walking and a lot of them are not Irish. And it's kind of hard to miss the black kids.

No doubt in some areas they will invent criteria which favour children who already have Irish in the home, but it's not necessarily the norm.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:31am

katydid wrote: »

Yes, I know that. But unless that translates into using the language in everyday life, it's pointless. And for most kids it doesn't. As I said before, most leave the language at the school gate and revert directly to English.

No. It's not pointless. If someone is a philistine and doesn't appreciate language, learning and culture, that's all well and good. They can live their own life the way they want to.

However the benefits of learning a language to a high level and being educated through it are almost unquantifiable. It brings a richness to life and a much better ability to learn and think open mindedly. It can only benefit people.

At any rate by deciding that it's pointless, and not encouraging your child to learn Irish, you're depriving them of the option, where they may wish years later that they could speak the language.

If people want to speak Irish every day, they can and many do.

I'm amazed that you seem to know so many of the parents and children- as well as your experience of how they leave the Irish in the classroom. I'm always amazed at how Irish remains so strong among kids who went to Gael scoileanna when they're together in adulthood.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:35am

katydid wrote: »

No doubt in some areas they will invent criteria which favour children who already have Irish in the home, but it's not necessarily the norm.

I would be very surprised if there is any gael Scoil that does not favour people who have Irish in the home.

katydid · 24-01-2015 12:40am

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. It's not pointless. If someone is a philistine and doesn't appreciate language, learning and culture, that's all well and good. They can live their own life the way they want to.

However the benefits of learning a language to a high level and being educated through it are almost unequantiable. It brings a richness to life and a much better ability to learn and think open mindedly. It can only benefit people.

At any rate by deciding that it's pointless, and not encouraging your child to learn Irish, you're depriving them of the option, where they may wish years later that they could speak the language.

If people want to speak Irish every day, they can and many do.

I'm amazed that you seem to know so many of the parents and children- as well as your experience of how they leave the Irish in the classroom. I'm always amazed at how Irish remains so strong among kids who went to Gael scoileanna when they're together in adulthood.

I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.

I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.

I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:55am

katydid wrote: »

I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.

I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.

I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.

Right. Well you're kind of getting back to the chicken and the egg question there. If Marty mcfly went back to 1955 in his delorean and signed his parents up for Irish degrees in hill valley college, it is possible that in an alternative 1985 marty would have grown up bilingual in the home and could have spoken Irish with all of his family.

If he never did this then this would not have been possible. You need people learning a language in order to speak it.

Irish is used in many domestic settings which are not educational or academic. Many of the children going to these schools would speak Irish in the home to varying degrees. They're less likely to use it when people who have a grudge against the language and regard it as pointless, but that doesn't mean they don't read their children bedtime stories in Irish or share precious family moments in Irish.

I went out with a girl in college who went to a Gael Scoil and there was a lot of Irish spoken among her former class mates there.

Just because you don't speak Irish daily or weekly doesn't mean that you can reduce it to the level of academic, educational, or insignificant culturally.

It's culturally significant for those who speak it.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 12:57am

katydid wrote: »

I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.

I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.

I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.

And finally. To the woman who has been teaching languages for thirty years.

Ask yourself the question:

How many of your students use the language you taught them daily, weekly, or monthly?

Think about it.

EDIT: here of course I'm getting back to your LEARNING / USAGE distinction

katydid · 24-01-2015 1:02am

ezra_pound wrote: »

Right. Well you're kind of getting back to the chicken and the egg question there. If Marty mcfly went back to 1955 in his delorean and signed his parents up for Irish degrees in hill valley college, it is possible that in an alternative 1985 marty would have grown up bilingual in the home and could have spoken Irish with all of his family.

If he never did this then this would not have been possible. You need people learning a language in order to speak it.

Irish is used in many domestic settings which are not educational or academic. Many of the children going to these schools would speak Irish in the home to varying degrees. They're less likely to use it when people who have a grudge against the language and regard it as pointless, but that doesn't mean they don't read their children bedtime stories in Irish or share precious family moments in Irish.

I went out with a girl in college who went to a Gael Scoil and there was a lot of Irish spoken among her former class mates there.

Just because you don't speak Irish daily or weekly doesn't mean that you can reduce it to the level of academic, educational, or insignificant culturally.

It's culturally significant for those who speak it.

People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.

Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.

Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.

katydid · 24-01-2015 1:02am

ezra_pound wrote: »

And finally. To the woman who has been teaching languages for thirty years.

Ask yourself the question:

How many of your students use the language you taught them daily, weekly, or monthly?

Think about it.

Very few. What is your point?

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 1:07am

katydid wrote: »

Very few. What is your point?

So the vast majority LEARNT but do not USE.

what's the point?

By your logic there is none.

Let me proceed... from your teaching of language, how many of your students attained true bilingualism where they had fluency in the language you taught and got the same benefits that a Gael Scoil pupil would as per:

http://science.time.com/2013/07/18/how-the-brain-benefits-from-being-bilingual/

http://www.actfl.org/advocacy/discover-languages/for-parents/cognitive
?

The cognitive advantage of bilingualism alone is a good reason to send you l your children to a gael Scoil!

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 1:08am

katydid wrote: »

People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.

Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.

Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.

Is the home with your family not everyday life?

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 1:13am

katydid wrote: »

People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.

Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.

Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.

That's a pity. My mother did her third level studies in university through Irish before gaelscoileanna were set up. My father learnt Irish by going to the Gaeltacht in his twenties.

Luckily for me I learnt Irish at home as it was a second language in our house used daily.

I spent six months in France and have good French yet I am more likely to benefit from having Irish on a day to day basis than French.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 1:31am

pwurple wrote: »

I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.

When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".

It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.

If you're so concerned about maths then maybe you should bring your kids to the Gael Scoil!

http://www.actfl.org/advocacy/discover-languages/for-parents/cognitive

"...Additionally, foreign language learning is much more a cognitive problem solving activity than a linguistic activity, overall. Studies have shown repeatedly that foreign language learning increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind in young children. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity.
A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests.

Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development."

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 11:17am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?

Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?

It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.

Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?

It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.

You have a very high expectation of gaelscoileanna, that they should permeate their ethos through society. Do you expect the same of other schools. As it happens gaelscoileanna do tend to bring about more parent involvement and if this means that the impact of its ethos is stronger than other schools then that's a good thing but at the end of the day they're schools.

I also don't understand your assertion that there's snobbery involved in gaelscoileanna. We're not talking about Eton or even Clongowes. Gaelscoileanna are not exclusive institutions. They just favour people who show efforts and ability regarding speaking the Irish language.

What do you mean it appears to be a closed shop? Do other schools provide more services to the non student local community than gaelscoileanna. Again I don't understand your point.

ezra_pound · 24-01-2015 11:36am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?

.

What impact do you expect them to have had? A golden decade for Irish international soccer? A new philosophical movement? An Irish space programme?

The gaelscoileanna have successfully given tens of thousands of children bilingualism and a fluency and love of the Irish language. They have also given many parents a focus for improving and practising their use of the language.

Presuming that this is the principal aim or mission of the schools they have been highly successful by any metric.

Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

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