Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

No the only propaganda (as no proof or evidence has been offered) here is your trying to imply Xenophobia is a key motivating factor behind parents deciding to send their kids to Gaelscoileanna. I am sure there are some racists in Gaelscoileanna just as there are some in any other schools and other walks of life in Ireland sadly.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But the same concept applies. All things being equal, the more time you spend learning a subject you need/heading in the direction you need to go, the sooner you will get there. If you decide to take a detour into a totally different subject/town, it will take you longer to get where you are going. If you only have a certain amount of time i.e. a school day, then you will never get as far going through the second subject/town as you would going direct. There has been a fair bit of study on that fact too.

"All things being equal" ... Arguably the most dangerous statement when it comes to interpreting theory's.. Commonly used in economics - those guys always get it right! :pac:

Because in general all other things aren't equal. The fact of the matter is that Gaelscoils tend to perform better.
The real question is whether this is a result of selection (only smarter/harder working students attend) or some fundamental advantage due to a change in the way people learn (perhaps both!)

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

recedite wrote: »

WTF? are you trying to say that "those who sit the exam through Irish" and "Gaelgeoir's" are two different sets of people? Of course the bonus points are for Gaelgeoirs.

I wouldn't call getting a 75% result in a higher level paper "doing bad".
A 70% result being boosted to 77% is a very nice present indeed.

And BTW, above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.
So a even a 99% result is boosted. But nobody gets boosted to 110% because that would be plain stupid, as well as unjust.

"the lack of resources" in Gaelscoileanna is not apparent to the outside observer. Are you thinking of Deis schools, maybe?

Of course Gaelgeoirí are native Irish speakers, or people brought up in an Irish speaking household (eg. L1 speakers) the vast majority of children in Gaelcholáise specifically here in the Galltacht are Bearloirí (L1 english, L2 Irish). For example I would never declare myself a Gaelgeoir, I'm born a Bearloirí and english is my L1 language.

By and large schools in the Gaeltacht are by default in a disadvantage areas, after all the highest levels of non-urban deprivation in this state tend to be the Gaeltacht (for example Iorras Aithneach had 40%+ unemployment even during the boom years of 2006-2007), thence the fact large number of them are covered by "Rural DEIS scheme".

91% result is equivalent to 99% quite simply as both are A1 and get you 100 points in the leaving cert, there's no grade boost. You do know how the Leaving Cert works right?

A 70% upgrade to 77% only results in an additional 5 points, as 70% is a B3 (75 points) versus 77% which is a B2 (80 points). However to get that extra 10% in your scenario you need to be sitting one of the following through Irish:

Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

(bold been subjects that aren't minority one's -- good luck sitting Arabic through Irish -- though both are Verb-Subject-Object (VSO) languages)

Most of the above are elective subjects, though obviously you tend to need to take at least one science subject to get into most university courses (outside of Humanities).

Again good luck at finding resources (teaching resources specifically) to use to actually prefer for the exam in Irish, for example there is no official translation of curriculum in most cases or books are outdated. As a result you will find for example even in the Gaeltacht that most schools actually "teach" (eg. prepare students for exam) through English.

The only guaranteed bonus a student in Gaelcholáiste will get is from doing higher maths in leaving cert of course their friends in english medium school get exact same bonus. Again though the better option would be to scrap the whole points race and adapt a more modern exam system/university matriculation system akin to that in the Netherlands.

catbear wrote: »

But will they perform better in the long term? There's no doubt that some are very well run with a strong educational ethos but if some schools have parents that only want their kids segregated from the immigrants then obviously in those instances education is a secondary concern.

If indeed...

I mean seriously.. A fictional situation has been created (based on things some posters have 'heard') and now forms the basis of anti-Gaelscoilers on this thread..

eire4 wrote: »

Again interesting speculation. Taking your theme further though then would suggest we need to do a serious cull of subjects within our school system that do not serve a direct utilitarian value that can directly link to economic benefit. I guess then maybe music class is out, probably PE and civics as well never mind all that pesky poetry and literature in English. What other subjects do you think should be eliminated so we can have our kids spening more time at the subjects you feel are needed?

Well it isn't speculation it is a proven mathematical fact.
As for culling subjects, I never suggested that at all. Simply make them elective and in doing so, prioritise things like maths, science, etc, i.e. subjects that act as cornerstones for a huge range of careers and thus give people more opportunities. I mean maths is used by everyone from a labourer to a computer scientist. Which of those need irish too? Surely that is only logical? So if you want to go into irish you can elect to do that. The thing is only a fraction of people want to go into irish, so why do they all have to spend time learning it every day?

eire4 wrote: »

Of course education is not just about direct utilitarian value it is about giving kids as well rounded an education as possible and hopefully developing their imagination and critical development skills among other skills.

Exactly, so why force so much irish onto them? Maybe they would rather German...

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well it isn't speculation it is a proven mathematical fact.
As for culling subjects, I never suggested that at all. Simply make them elective and in doing so, prioritise things like maths, science, etc, i.e. subjects that act as cornerstones for a huge range of careers and thus give people more opportunities. I mean maths is used by everyone from a labourer to a computer scientist. Which of those need irish too? Surely that is only logical? So if you want to go into irish you can elect to do that. The thing is only a fraction of people want to go into irish, so why do they all have to spend time learning it every day?




Exactly, so why force so much irish onto them? Maybe they would rather German...

Still not seeing anything from you that shows going to a Gaelscoil hurts a kid academically other then your own statements that this is a "fact".
By that logic why force any subject on anybody. You can make an argument we all need some basic Math skills but no need for Algebra, Theorems etc. By your logic a waste of time we could better use somewhere else. We all need basic reading and writting skills but no need for Poetry, literature etc in English class. In short other then some basic Math and English skills we all need everything should be elective. Thus going by your logic almost everything should be elective as other then basic Maths and English everything else is only really relevant career wise to specific careers.


But reality is many kids don't have a fixed view on what they want their career to be by their junior cert and it is important to give kids a good all round education which for me should include Irish.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

So are you saying a well rounded education needs to involve irish on the same level as English, science and maths?

There are many things that can sound logical as also there are many things that look to be correlated but are in fact not. Your the one who keeps making the same point without ever offering any evidence that kids going to a Gaelscoil suffer academically. My intital response was one of interest I did not say no what your saying is false nor did I agree with it.


Well this thread is about kids going to Gaelscoileanna so in that instance clearly Irish is considered a key central compenent of the educational experience.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

So are you saying a well rounded education needs to involve irish on the same level as English, science and maths?

Sound logical arguments are enough to give credentials worthy of Eddie Hobbs, you'd make a fantastic economist.
Come back to reality and try back up your examples in the real world

catbear wrote: »

If sound logical arguments aren't enough then what justifies decades of compulsory Irish?

Given that Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáiste is about parental choice (eg. the choice of sending children to school through medium of education) the actions/inactions of politico's/mandarins aren't relevant, after all the Dept of Education spent a couple years there recently refusing to recognise new Gaelscoileanna -- no doubt as they represent a threat to established order. (Omg! Parents actually want to take an interest in their child's education, heresy! )

Of course JJ Lee writing back in 1989 states the following

Policy for about two decades has clearly been to let the language die by stealth. For once, the policy-makers are achieving success, although there has been a small but nonetheless striking efflorescence of voluntary education effort in some middle-class urban circles in the past decade.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=94c7MQTBTFwC&lpg=PP1&dq=ireland%201912-1985&pg=PA673#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's quite obvious that the ruling class in this country see the language as something to give them names for quango's (horendous Ervia comes to mind) and perhaps add a bit ceremony to events. Thence the horror expressed by Dept. of Finance to proposal to offer free education (secondary) to Gaeltacht residents in the late 1920's

The commission actually recommended free secondary school education in the Gaeltacht! The government rejected this heretical suggestion on the disingenuous grounds that parents were too poor to avail of free secondary education because they had to send their children out to work at the age of twelve! Therefore free secondary education 'would not produce results commensurate with the cost'.