London protests for second Brexit Vote

Jack Moore · 21-10-2018 11:44am

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Yes. I'm clearly saying that this should never have been allowed to happen.

If we had t signed up to Neice and Lisbon would we have been better off?

Jack Moore · 21-10-2018 11:46am

tonycascarino wrote: »

700,000 people are not going to overturn the decision of the 17.4 million people who voted out. I'd be fairly certain if the original decision had been in favour of remain that there would be no chance of another referendum.

Yes but in fairness if it is held again the result will be conclusive
If the people have changed their minds then the vote will reflect that
If not then it won’t
Simples

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:46am

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, I hope there will be a second referendum.
It really was a choice between leaving things as they are, or the Brits fcuking themselves up the arse with a cactus, a broken bottle and a pint of lemon juice and people voted for the latter.
The first bite was a lot of morons voting leave whilst "rule Britannia" was playing in their heads.

So you send the same morons back in the hope that they will vote the way you want them to vote? This time without "rule britannia" playing in their heads.

They should come to Ireland for advice.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:48am

Jack Moore wrote: »

If we had t signed up to Neice and Lisbon would we have been better off?

I have no idea. I didnt understand either treaty then. I dont understand them now.

What were they and how have they affected us?

NIMAN · 21-10-2018 11:49am

Maybe the difference in this case is that the people were lied to?

Normally in a referendum, you are sold different sides of a debate, but one side was lying through their teeth in Brexit and swayed the vote based on the lies.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:49am

Jack Moore wrote: »

Yes but in fairness if it is held again the result will be conclusive
If the people have changed their minds then the vote will reflect that
If not then it won’t
Simples

The government should have made sure that the vote they wanted was conclusive the first time around.

Guy:Incognito · 21-10-2018 11:52am

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

The government should have made sure that the vote they wanted was conclusive the first time around.

You seem to have conveniently missed this again, so I figured I'd repost it for you

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I never said I'd oppose those efforts. Where did I say that?

My initial point was, if people who were and still are anti abortion or anti gay marriage asked for a referendum to have the yes vote(s) overturned would they get it?

The answer is no.

I'm asking why should Brexit be treated differently.

You're talking around the point. If it was defeated, should it stay that way forever?

You're the one treating brexit differently and saying it should be final and that's it.

Why would you not oppose same sex marriage in the future if it was defeated first time if it's so important for votes to be final?

BailMeOut · 21-10-2018 11:54am

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

In 1983 67% voted for the 8th amendment and this year a similar % voted to get rid of it so yes re-votes can and do happen.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:54am

Sofiztikated wrote: »

If there were significant numbers, then yes there would be another referendum.

There wont.

eagle eye · 21-10-2018 11:55am

NIMAN wrote:

Maybe the difference in this case is that the people were lied to?

Normally in a referendum, you are sold different sides of a debate, but one side was lying through their teeth in Brexit and swayed the vote based on the lies.

They were lied to by both sides though.
They are still being lied to. The scaremongering by the pro-Europe side is every bit as bad as the pro-Brexit group.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:56am

BailMeOut wrote: »

In 1983 67% voted for the 8th amendment and this year a similar % voted to get rid of it so yes re-votes can and do happen.

Maybe Britain will decide to rejoin the EU in 35 years time. Who knows?

Ultimate Seduction · 21-10-2018 11:56am

Brexit means Brexit.

People saying it should be voted on again incase the people changed their minds, I mean, will there be another vote in 2020 incase minds change again? Best of 3? If not, why not?

joe40 · 21-10-2018 11:57am

eagle eye wrote: »

NIMAN wrote:

Maybe the difference in this case is that the people were lied to?

Normally in a referendum, you are sold different sides of a debate, but one side was lying through their teeth in Brexit and swayed the vote based on the lies.

They were lied to by both sides though.
They are still being lied to. The scaremongering by the pro-Europe side is every bit as bad as the pro-Brexit group.

Do you have any examples of the lies from the pro europe side.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 11:58am

eagle eye wrote: »

They were lied to by both sides though.
They are still being lied to. The scaremongering by the pro-Europe side is every bit as bad as the pro-Brexit group.

Of course it is.

Neither side knows whats going to happen for sure but they all make foolish and baseless predictions

TheIrishGrover · 21-10-2018 11:59am

The infuriating thing about this is: Where were all these voters when they were deciding? I was in the UK the days around the Brexit vote (At Glastonbury). Ask anyone ther if they were going to vote (They did have the ability there) and all you got was "Naaaaah, it'll never happen" or "Naaaaah, couldn't be ar$ed". Then, on the Sunday morning the shock on people's faces was stunning: "What happened? How did they do this?" They didn't do it. Ye did it!

This is how monsters like Trump get voted in. If there is a vote to decide if you want something to happen or note happen then f*cking vote!!!. If you don't then you have no right to complain about the outcome and your non-vote is, effectively a vote against what you wanted.

Of course there were disgustingly misleading ads (The famous bus and Farage's immediate backing away from that the day of the results) and, personally, I believe that anyone who can be swayed by Facebook links shouldn't have a vote

Personally their decision to leave was a mistake that will have ramifications for 20 years. I believe all this faffing about with UK call charges in Europe and f*cking passport colour (Which they didn't need Brexit to change) is just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. I think the UK, Ireland and the rest of the EU are in for a world of hurt.

But the point is:

Don't vote? Don't b1tch

BailMeOut · 21-10-2018 11:59am

a great way to sort it would be to have referendum and whether or not they should have another Brexit referendum.

21-10-2018 12:01pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant once the result is known. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

The abortion and SSM refurredums weren’t based on lies and mistruths to suit the governments wants and desires. The British were told brexit was the best thing for them and it was an absolute lie. “We’ll put the money we pay to the EU every week right to NHS!”

Post brexit: we never said that????

Umaro · 21-10-2018 12:02pm

To use your gay marriage re-run analogy, it would be like if we voted through gay marriage and then discovered that upon getting married gays then develop devastating superpowers.
In this case it would be fine to re-run the referendum, since we didn't realise what a terrible choice voting Yes was.

The trouble with voting Leave is that there was no white paper on what it actually meant. Stay in customs union but leave single market? Or both? Or neither? Or just close up the borders? Ask one Leaver what they thought they were voting for and it'll be vastly different to the next.

Having seen what an almighty balls-up the Tories are making of it, is it not the rational thing to do to ask "This is what Brexit looks like. Are you sure?"

Sidenote: can't believe people are still trotting out the Lisbon Treaty argument. You do know that it was amended for us before we passed it? It wasn't the exact same Treaty.

mvl · 21-10-2018 12:02pm

this is massive, and I would not consider this rally is too late.

I would question how many other rallies are needed to get what they are asking for, as I think one may not be enough.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:05pm

Preston Dirty DucklingMGS wrote: »

The abortion and SSM refurredums weren’t based on lies and mistruths to suit the governments wants and desires. The British were told brexit was the best thing for them and it was an absolute lie. “We’ll put the money we pay to the EU every week right to NHS!”

Post brexit: we never said that????

I didnt say it either

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:13pm

Umaro wrote: »

To use your gay marriage re-run analogy, it would be like if we voted through gay marriage and then discovered that upon getting married gays then develop devastating superpowers.
In this case it would be fine to re-run the referendum, since we didn't realise what a terrible choice voting Yes was.

The trouble with voting Leave is that there was no white paper on what it actually meant. Stay in customs union but leave single market? Or both? Or neither? Or just close up the borders? Ask one Leaver what they thought they were voting for and it'll be vastly different to the next.

Having seen what an almighty balls-up the Tories are making of it, is it not the rational thing to do to ask "This is what Brexit looks like. Are you sure?"

Sidenote: can't believe people are still trotting out the Lisbon Treaty argument. You do know that it was amended for us before we passed it? It wasn't the exact same Treaty.

Isnt it more like, this is what your brexit negotiators look like?

I dare say that more competent negotiators would have made a significantly better and more effective attempt at their negotiations that what they have done.

They were never going to get everything they wanted but they could have made a better attempt.

Another thing it highlights is the level of ignorance among the British political elite. Some of the comments made surrounding the Irish border issue have been staggering.

The real question for me has always been why the referendum was granted in the first place and was it a case of their own political complacency coming back to bite them?

They never had a clear majority and they let the other side wipe their eye.

Jack Moore · 21-10-2018 12:16pm

Umaro wrote: »

To use your gay marriage re-run analogy, it would be like if we voted through gay marriage and then discovered that upon getting married gays then develop devastating superpowers.
In this case it would be fine to re-run the referendum, since we didn't realise what a terrible choice voting Yes was.

The trouble with voting Leave is that there was no white paper on what it actually meant. Stay in customs union but leave single market? Or both? Or neither? Or just close up the borders? Ask one Leaver what they thought they were voting for and it'll be vastly different to the next.

Having seen what an almighty balls-up the Tories are making of it, is it not the rational thing to do to ask "This is what Brexit looks like. Are you sure?"

Sidenote: can't believe people are still trotting out the Lisbon Treaty argument. You do know that it was amended for us before we passed it? It wasn't the exact same Treaty.

It was the same treaty making the same amendments to the eu constitution
It simply had some gaurentees

https://www.iiea.com/publication/lisbon-the-irish-guarantees-explained/

Akrasia · 21-10-2018 12:18pm

retalivity wrote: »

If they were going to re-vote, they should have had it a year ago. Too far gone now, what with them supposed to leave in 5 months.

huh???

It's the perfect time for a 2nd refendum. The UK haven't left yet, and the voters will have enough information to make an actually informed choice having seen the state of the negotiations on the withdrawal agreement.

eagle eye · 21-10-2018 12:18pm

mvl wrote:

I would question how many other rallies are needed to get what they are asking for, as I think one may not be enough.

How many people are at the rally? Is there there 30 million?

joe40 · 21-10-2018 12:19pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

eagle eye wrote: »

They were lied to by both sides though.They are still being lied to. The scaremongering by the pro-Europe side is every bit as bad as the pro-Brexit group.

Of course it is.Neither side knows whats going to happen for sure but they all make foolish and baseless predictions

Again. Any examples of lies from the pro europe side.

Sam Quentin · 21-10-2018 12:20pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant once the result is known. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

Life is actually more simple than that..
If the electorate was lied to and misled by a strong heartless bordering on racist anti Eorope pied Piper brigade,. and being that most people didn't really have a clue how serious this was and how detrimental it would be to their Country!? Then is it not right (because they made a SERIOUS mistake)that they should be allowed vote again?

21-10-2018 12:22pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Maybe Britain will decide to rejoin the EU in 35 years time. Who knows?

Do you think they will? Remember as well as their EU membership, all of their opt-outs they made such a fuss of getting will be extinguished when they leave.

Akrasia · 21-10-2018 12:23pm

tonycascarino wrote: »

700,000 people are not going to overturn the decision of the 17.4 million people who voted out. I'd be fairly certain if the original decision had been in favour of remain that there would be no chance of another referendum.

nobody says the 700k marchers should overturn a decision made by 17million people. They are calling for a 2nd vote, where presumably north of 18 million people will vote to remain in the EU.

The brexiters don't want a vote because they know the 'will of the people' has changed and they'd lose a 2nd vote.

CinemaGuy45 · 21-10-2018 12:25pm

Look I called this from the very start I knew Brexit would never be allowed happen.

Akrasia · 21-10-2018 12:27pm

eagle eye wrote: »

They were lied to by both sides though.
They are still being lied to. The scaremongering by the pro-Europe side is every bit as bad as the pro-Brexit group.

So your logic is that because everyone was lying, the vote must be respected??

Surely lying by everyone means that voters weren't making an informed choice

If you sign a contract based on lies, that usually invalidates the contract. (eg if I sell you a car that I don't actually own)

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:29pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

You're talking around the point. If it was defeated, should it stay that way forever?

You're the one treating brexit differently and saying it should be final and that's it.

Why would you not oppose same sex marriage in the future if it was defeated first time if it's so important for votes to be final?

I didnt say it should stay that way forever.

What I said was, now that gay marriage has been legalised its highly unlikely it will ever become illegal again. The referendum result will likely never be overturned

I'm saying the same thing about abortion. Now that it has been legalised its highly unlikely it will ever be illegal again. The referendum result will likely never be overturned.

We certainly wont be voting on either in the next year or two.

I dont know if this has ever happened in any other country. I dont expect it to happen here. Certainly not in my lifetime.

I'm suggesting that the Brexit result should stand. (It was only voted just over two years ago) and not just overturned after two because some people dont like the result.

It the people of the U.K ever decide to vote to re-enter the option is available for them to do so at some point in the future but to do so soon after the original result would be foolish to me.

swampgas · 21-10-2018 12:32pm

Akrasia wrote: »

The brexiters don't want a vote because they know the 'will of the people' has changed and they'd lose a 2nd vote.

Exactly. If a majority were still in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers would complaining that a referendum would be a waste of money as the result wouldn't change (based on polling or whatever).

But they have tacitly accepted that a majority are against Brexit now, so their argument is that that's just too bad, because the referendum was a one-off can't-be-repeated-no-matter-what affair, and the losers/remoaners just have to suck it up.

They don't like admitting that what they are fighting for is completely undemocratic - they know a majority would vote against Brexit now - so instead they fall back on the kind of childish nonsense we see in the tabloids and in this thread.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:32pm

Akrasia wrote: »

So your logic is that because everyone was lying, the vote must be respected??

Surely lying by everyone means that voters weren't making an informed choice

If you sign a contract based on lies, that usually invalidates the contract. (eg if I sell you a car that I don't actually own)

Micheal D. Higgins lied to us at the last presidential election. He got 7 years in the aras.

His reward is likely to be that he'll get another 7 years. Its' naive to expect to be told the truth at an election time.

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think they will? Remember as well as their EU membership, all of their opt-outs they made such a fuss of getting will be extinguished when they leave.

I have no idea. How would I know what the british electorate will decide in the future?

21-10-2018 12:36pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Micheal D. Higgins lied to us at the last presidential election. He got 7 years in the aras.

His reward is likely to be that he'll get another 7 years. Its' naive to expect to be told the truth at an election time.

There's a difference between a mickey mouse election for an irrelevant ceremonial position and something (Brexit) that can & will affect millions of people's lives going forward.

Akrasia · 21-10-2018 12:36pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Micheal D. Higgins lied to us at the last presidential election. He got 7 years in the aras.

His reward is likely to be that he'll get another 7 years. Its' naive to expect to be told the truth at an election time.

We have a referendum commission who are legally commissioned to give an impartial explanation of the facts

orourkeda1977 · 21-10-2018 12:38pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So people are not allowed to changed their minds? What's democratic about that?

Surely if it's the will of the people it wouldn't matter if there was 10 votes, because leave would win every time?

Presumably everyone is in favour of getting rid of divorce here seeing as that took a couple of goes? Get home rule off the table and take the vote back off women while we're at it.

It was the will of the people at the time of the vote.

mad muffin · 21-10-2018 12:38pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant once the result is known. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

Would anti abortion protesters or people who disagreed with gay marriage get a re-vote. No nor should they.

The thing is… gay marriage and abortion only affect a small minority of the population. The vote ended in the right result.

Brexit affects everyone. Even us in Ireland and we didn’t vote on it.

biko · 21-10-2018 12:44pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

the voters were lied to.

Welcome to every referendum/vote on every thing ever.

BailMeOut · 21-10-2018 12:48pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

Micheal D. Higgins lied to us at the last presidential election. He got 7 years in the aras.

His reward is likely to be that he'll get another 7 years. Its' naive to expect to be told the truth at an election time.

did he lie 7 years ago or just change mind in meanwhile? People can and do and should be always be allowed change their minds over time.

mvl · 21-10-2018 12:48pm

mad muffin wrote: »

The thing is… gay marriage and abortion only affect a small minority of the population. The vote ended in the right result.

Brexit affects everyone. Even us in Ireland and we didn’t vote on it.

Also adding that gay marriage for example has no external dependencies whatsoever, unlike Brexit, where its obvious that Brexit leadership had failed what they were supposed to do to achieve success of the cause they were selling before the vote.
For sure there should be consequences to that.

Btw - where are things with the Russian influence over the Brexit vote ?

Blazer · 21-10-2018 12:49pm

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Did you vote in the Abortion, Marriage, et al referendum here after Ireland re ran Lisburn. The UK electorate were lied to and deceived, and it has lead to the whole sh!testorm they are now in. I hope they get a revote, now that they know, or at least has a better idea, on what it really entails.

well then the youth should have gotten off their votes and gone out to vote.
But they couldn't be arsed.
Now they have to pay their price so maybe next time they won't be so lackadaisical about it.
And just because a few hundred thousand people are out protesting doesn't mean anything.
What if they did a new referendum..it barely got through and all the people who voted no went out and protested and demanded a new vote?
I'm pretty sure the yes voters would tell them to frak off and suck it up.

mvl · 21-10-2018 12:52pm

Blazer wrote: »

well then the youth should have gotten off their votes and gone out to vote.
But they couldn't be arsed.
Now they have to pay their price so maybe next time they won't be so lackadaisical about it.

this is something I agree with, but I think the price could be how they need to work harder at fixing it

mad muffin · 21-10-2018 12:56pm

PCX wrote: »

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"Let's get back to being the British Empire" - this leave voter at the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/SaveBrexitRally?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#SaveBrexitRally</a> in Harrogate explains why he doesn't want a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PeoplesVote?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc^tfw">#PeoplesVote</a><br><br>Read more about the Brexit marches taking place across the UK here: <a href="https://t.co/yjolYwzM8j">https://t.co/yjolYwzM8j</a> <a href="https://t.co/HUQIZmxoLH">pic.twitter.com/HUQIZmxoLH</a></p>— Sky News (@SkyNews) <a href="
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1053662098574716929?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October
20, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Putinbot malfunction…

FTA69 · 21-10-2018 12:59pm

F*ck off Europe, we all voted out,

PCX · 21-10-2018 1:04pm

mad muffin wrote: »

Putinbot malfunction…

No I'm not a putinbot but I am really bad at embedding stuff apparently!:pac:

blinding · 21-10-2018 1:05pm

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Massive majority voted to Repeal and for gay marriage, Brexit was close and the voters were lied to.

Cameron told the big lie that if he did not get any concessions from the Eu he would vote for Brexit and recommend voting for Brexit .

He got nothing from the Eu and did the opposite of what he said he would do = He lied .

That Referendum started with Cameron's lie .

4068ac1elhodqr · 21-10-2018 1:20pm

Surely Scotland will get their Independance vote (and probably leave), before there is another Brexit (only 2yrs since last one).

Guy:Incognito · 21-10-2018 1:22pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

It was the will of the people at the time of the vote.

And now it's not.

If the will of the people was that the marriage equality bill didn't pass, then should that be that. "sorry gay people, tough ****, go be equal somewhere else"

The will of the people 35 years ago here is that there should be no abortion and no divorce . Same sex marriage wasn't legal until the will of the people changed .

The will of the people changes in the time between general elections.

Brexit is more important than all of those in the sense that it's even more final. If theyd voted remain and not triggered article 50 they could have voted again and triggered it at a later date. If they leave it's not just a case of having a vote in a few years and jumping back in.

Guy:Incognito · 21-10-2018 1:26pm

Rosalyn High Sunburn wrote: »

Surely Scotland will get their Independance vote (and probably leave), before there is another Brexit (only 2yrs since last one).

This was my point earlier. Leavers seem very hypocritical in this regard. Surely the UK is just a smaller version of the Eu (though much "worse" in their opinion seeing as the other parts have less control ) and Scotland, Wales and NI should be set free from distant rule of London?

London protests for second Brexit Vote

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