London protests for second Brexit Vote

Blazer

Rosalyn High Sunburn wrote: »

An emotive vote, especially in light of the current situation doesn't care much about small print or consequences.

What you are implying is that no small break-away country can ever leave the EU (and have the option to join) Ever.

Scotland if it declared independence would be treated as a separate country by the EU and hence wouldn't be a member. This is already being stated by EU officials and is part of the 2012 Barroso protocols.
IT would have to go through all the protocols required to apply for membership.
Also even if Scotland would through all the procedures required and it would take years and applied for membership it would be blocked by Spain.
Even one country saying no is enough to block them. And Spain will never allow Scotland to join...this would provoke Catalan politicians to declare independence yet again and attempt to join the EU on their own...it would in fact cause a war in Spain.

MrMusician18

blinding wrote: »

The Scots rejected Independence only a few years ago . = Not a Real Country

If the SNP had won the Scottish Independence referendum by 52% to 48% would the SNP be calling for another referendum ?

Unlikely for SNP to call for another referendum, but if at the end of the Scottish exit negotiation it was clear it was a disaster, and there was evidence of a shift in public opinion, then yeah Unionists such as yourself would be all over a second vote.

blinding

Blazer wrote: »

Scotland if it declared independence would be treated as a separate country by the EU and hence wouldn't be a member. This is already being stated by EU officials and is part of the 2012 Barroso protocols.
IT would have to go through all the protocols required to apply for membership.
Also even if Scotland would through all the procedures required and it would take years and applied for membership it would be blocked by Spain.
Even one country saying no is enough to block them. And Spain will never allow Scotland to join...this would provoke Catalan politicians to declare independence yet again and attempt to join the EU on their own...it would in fact cause a war in Spain.

Scotland decided only two years ago they weren’t a Country . The Eu did as much as it could to thwart Scottish Independence . The SNP have short memories when it comes to the Eu .

4068ac1elhodqr

blinding wrote: »

The Scots rejected Independence only a few years ago . = Not a Real Country

If the SNP had won the Scottish Independence referendum by 52% to 48% would the SNP be calling for another referendum ?

The SI Ref was only won with 53% supporting staying in the Union, yet there were no calls afterward to 'run it again'.

But in the years since the mood has since changed. Enough time has now passed to run another vote. If there is to be another Brexit, there should another Scotexit beforehand.

A second poll conducted by Deltapoll for Scots campaign group Best for Britain revealed 47 percent would vote for an independent Scotland compared to 43 percent against, with 10 percent undecided.

Lady Spangles

TBH, I am torn on the precedent a second referendum would set. The people have already voted. But (and this is a major but), they voted on the basis of lies. UKIP lied, all the Brexiteers lied through their teeth. What basis is that for a democratic referendum? And those lies are tearing the country apart. I voted remain the first time and I'd vote remain again.

4068ac1elhodqr

Blazer wrote: »

Scotland if it declared independence would be treated as a separate country by the EU and hence wouldn't be a member. This is already being stated by EU officials and is part of the 2012 Barroso protocols.
IT would have to go through all the protocols required to apply for membership.
Also even if Scotland would through all the procedures required and it would take years and applied for membership it would be blocked by Spain.
Even one country saying no is enough to block them. And Spain will never allow Scotland to join...this would provoke Catalan politicians to declare independence yet again and attempt to join the EU on their own...it would in fact cause a war in Spain.

So if you have a 'divorce' once your in the club, you can never, ever, ever, leave, well that's nice.

Scotland is a country. Barcelona-basque is simply a 'region' of Spain. Yugoslavia broke up not that long ago, these things can happen, ideally by peaceful means.

Lady Spangles

blinding wrote: »

Scotland decided only two years ago they weren’t a Country . The Eu did as much as it could to thwart Scottish Independence . The SNP have short memories when it comes to the Eu .

Scotland is very much a country, as is Wales. They have their own parliaments already, with devolved powers. They have their own laws, culture, language etc. What they did decide to do, for better or worse, is remain as part of the Union. It is possible to be a country and be part of the Union.

Blazer

Rosalyn High Sunburn wrote: »

So if you have a 'divorce' once your in the club, you can never, ever, ever, leave, well that's nice.

Scotland is a country. Barcelona-basque is simply a 'region' of Spain. Yugoslavia broke up not that long ago, these things can happen, ideally by peaceful means.

I don't get the part where I say you can't leave.
I'm simply stating the facts as the EU put them out there.

blinding

Rosalyn High Sunburn wrote: »

The SI Ref was only won with 53% supporting staying in the Union, yet there were no calls afterward to 'run it again'.

But in the years since the mood has since changed. Enough time has now passed to run another vote. If there is to be another Brexit, there should another Scotexit beforehand.

A second poll conducted by Deltapoll for Scots campaign group Best for Britain revealed 47 percent would vote for an independent Scotland compared to 43 percent against, with 10 percent undecided.

Without checking I think it was 55% to remain in the Uk .

blinding

Lady Spangles wrote: »

TBH, I am torn on the precedent a second referendum would set. The people have already voted. But (and this is a major but), they voted on the basis of lies. UKIP lied, all the Brexiteers lied through their teeth. What basis is that for a democratic referendum? And those lies are tearing the country apart. I voted remain the first time and I'd vote remain again.

Cameron lied . He said if he did not get concessions from the Eu he would vote for Brexit and recommend voting for Brexit . He lied from day one of the referendum .

Blazer

blinding wrote: »

Cameron lied . He said if he did not get concessions from the Eu he would vote for Brexit and recommend voting for Brexit . He lied from day one of the referendum .

To me he's worst than Blair.
At least Blair always voted to remain in the EU and still does and pushes for a 2nd vote.
Cameron on the other hand completely betrayed his country for his party. And then just walked away.

tonycascarino

Blazer wrote: »

To me he's worst than Blair.
At least Blair always voted to remain in the EU and still does and pushes for a 2nd vote.

Blair is desperately pushing for a 2nd referendum because it is and always was his ambition to have a top job in the EU. He cannot achieve this if Great Britain are out of it.

4068ac1elhodqr

blinding wrote: »

Without checking I think it was 55% to remain in the Uk .

Ah so it was, still 52% (2yrs ago), or 55% (8yrs ago) not a great deal of difference.

Thus, if anything Scot should get 'another go' first, in light of the mess that W'minister has, and is still creating for them.

Great article, right here:

Chris Johns, 'Brexit parallels with the fall of Rome are all too obvious'

The sole benefit of Brexit is going to be the final, long overdue reckoning of the British with their loss of Empire, with their rightwing French-hating/ German-hating/Irish-hating jingoists and poppy-pushers. Being on the winning side (as opposed to being the winners) of WWII allowed them to continue the delusions of world power status up until the present. Unfortunately, it will take the disaster of the terms the EU will set for them to realise all the lies and xenophobia their Europhobic media and political parties have peddled for decades.

Boris and Nigel will be fine, though: there will remain millions of ignorant, undereducated English idiots who will always blame the foreigners for a calamity that is entirely the fault of rightwing English politicians who wrap the Union Jack around them and appeal to an odd national sentiment. The poor English victims of the evil EU/French/Germans.

Westernyelp

tonycascarino wrote:

700,000 is quite impressive but not as impressive as the 17.4 million that voted out.

Ridiculous comparison

BuyersRemorse

Deleted User wrote: »

Great article, right here:

Chris Johns, 'Brexit parallels with the fall of Rome are all too obvious'

The sole benefit of Brexit is going to be the final, long overdue reckoning of the British with their loss of Empire, with their rightwing French-hating/ German-hating/Irish-hating jingoists and poppy-pushers. Being on the winning side (as opposed to being the winners) of WWII allowed them to continue the delusions of world power status up until the present. Unfortunately, it will take the disaster of the terms the EU will set for them to realise all the lies and xenophobia their Europhobic media and political parties have peddled for decades.

Boris and Nigel will be fine, though: there will remain millions of ignorant, undereducated English idiots who will always blame the foreigners for a calamity that is entirely the fault of rightwing English politicians. The poor English victims of the evil EU/French/Germans.

Also being led by their collective nose rings by possibly the worst free press in the Western world - The Express, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Sun sowing the seeds of hate over decades with ludicrous anti Europe drivel about the shape of bananas etc and headlines like 'Hop off you Frogs' & 'Up Yours Senors'.

chrissb8

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'll never vote again if this happens.

Whether you agree with a vote or not is irrelevant. If a referendum is called the vote should stand. Thats it.

So people are not allowed to changed their minds?  What's democratic about that?


Surely if it's the will of the people it wouldn't matter if there was 10 votes,  because leave would win every time?

Presumably everyone is in favour of getting rid of divorce here seeing as that took a couple of goes?  Get home rule off the table and take the vote back off women while we're at it.

No. People aren't allowed to change their minds just because they weren't pushed in informing themselves of such a huge topic. Some people I know just didn't even vote. Like what sympathy to do you want when you can't even be pushed?
"We didn't know this actually mattered! Let's do it again and we'll get it right" Sod off and let that be a lesson learned. Let it be a lesson in involving yourself in the democratic process when it matters the most. Not just taking a back seat and figuring "it will sort itself out".

4068ac1elhodqr

BuyersRemorse wrote: »

Also being led by their collective nose rings by possibly the worst [ *most popular* ] free press in the Western world - The Express, Telegraph, Daily Mail, Sun sowing the seeds of hate over decades with ludicrous anti Europe drivel about the shape of bananas etc and headlines like 'Hop off you Frogs' & 'Up Yours Senors'.

Fixed that for you.
Like it or not, these are most popular newspapers, and Mail group in particular might well be the most read (online) newspaper in the world for this language.



2018 print circulation^.
The likes of the Guardian can be considered to be 'niche' or 'specalist' reading, not to mention unpopular.

eagle eye

Guy:Incognito wrote:

So just leave and stop looking for all the benefits of being in the Eu

I love the bravado here when you know, or should know, that a hard border really hurts Ireland.

Blazer

eagle eye wrote: »

I love the bravado here when you know, or should know, that a hard border really hurts Ireland.

exactly,..people seem to revel in the chaos Brexit will cause in the UK and are too dumb to realise that as bad as the UK is hurt, it will damage us far far worse.

Cato the Elder

Blazer wrote: »

exactly,..people seem to revel in the chaos Brexit will cause in the UK and are too dumb to realise that as bad as the UK is hurt, it will damage us far far worse.

I imagine an actual No Deal would affect the UK far more. It's arguable that it's the best way cause it gives a better chance of them coming back to the EU.


Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.

WoolyJumper

I don't understand why it's undemocratic to hold a second vote. Things have changed since the first vote. The understanding of what brexit actually means has changed and there was a lot of lies and misinformation going around during the initial campaign.

The result of the initial referendum was by no means a landslide. If it looks like a significant proportion of the population have changed their mind or would like another opportunity to vote on the issue then surely the democratic thing to do is hold another vote. And the end of the day people still have a free vote and can choose to vote no if the wish. If they held a vote again and the result was no, it would be a far more decisive no. Given how much more informed the british people are of what brexit actually means. But people just say its undemocratic because there is a good chance the result would be different, which in itself suggests the need for a second vote.

Barreling through with a brexit that was arguably won on misinformation and will potentially be very different to what they expected from brexit seems undemocratic to me

mvl

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I don't understand why it's undemocratic to hold a second vote. Things have changed since the first vote. The understanding of what brexit actually means has changed and there was a lot of lies and misinformation going around during the initial campaign.

The result of the initial referendum was by no means a landslide. If it looks like a significant proportion of the population have changed their mind or would like another opportunity to vote on the issue then surely the democratic thing to do is hold another vote. And the end of the day people still have a free vote and can choose to vote no if the wish. If they held a vote again and the result was no, it would be a far more decisive no. Given how much more informed the british people are of what brexit actually means. But people just say its undemocratic because there is a good chance the result would be different, which in itself suggests the need for a second vote.

Barreling through with a brexit that was arguably won on misinformation and will potentially be very different to what they expected from brexit seems undemocratic to me

as we've seen how Norway had two referendums to join EU, both rejected by the population.

Minderbinder

The reason it would be undemocratic in my view is because it wouldn't be a fair yes/no because the people in power would basically be harassing the general public into voting one way and they only need to scare a small percentage of 'leavers' to sway the result.

There'd be an element of state brainwashing in a second vote.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Rosalyn High Sunburn wrote: »

Fixed that for you.
Like it or not, these are most popular newspapers, and Mail group in particular might well be the most read (online) newspaper in the world for this language.



2018 print circulation^.
The likes of the Guardian can be considered to be 'niche' or 'specalist' reading, not to mention unpopular.

Are you equating popularity with accuracy?

Samuel T. Cogley

Surely if enough people want a second vote, then it's undemocratic to deny a second vote? They should have a vote on whether to have a second vote or not.

WoolyJumper

Minderbinder wrote: »

The reason it would be undemocratic in my view is because it wouldn't be a fair yes/no because the people in power would basically be harassing the general public into voting one way and they only need to scare a small percentage of 'leavers' to sway the result.

There'd be an element of state brainwashing in a second vote.

Yeah I see your point and I might agree with you if all political parties were on the same page with this. But there is a very strong divide in the conservative party alone. There is plenty of strong voices in favour of leaving the EU

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Minderbinder wrote: »

The reason it would be undemocratic in my view is because it wouldn't be a fair yes/no because the people in power would basically be harassing the general public into voting one way and they only need to scare a small percentage of 'leavers' to sway the result.

There'd be an element of state brainwashing in a second vote.

... which is exactly why a lot of people see the first one as undemocratic...

Minderbinder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Minderbinder wrote: »

The reason it would be undemocratic in my view is because it wouldn't be a fair yes/no because the people in power would basically be harassing the general public into voting one way and they only need to scare a small percentage of 'leavers' to sway the result.

There'd be an element of state brainwashing in a second vote.

... which is exactly why a lot of people see the first one as undemocratic...

Oh right, because a lot of folks voted the way the loud mouths didn’t want them to vote means they were brainwashed?

Look, nobody could really predict what would happen with brexit before the referendum. I think that was pretty clear. Unfortunately the current government (who were opposed to leaving) are trying their best to find a stalemate. This is all being orchestrated by them and the EU imo.

You will probably get what you want eventually and it won’t be democratic but I’m sure you’ll be happy nonetheless.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Minderbinder wrote: »

Oh right, because a lot of folks voted the way the loud mouths didn’t want them to vote means they were brainwashed?

Look, nobody could really predict what would happen with brexit before the referendum. I think that was pretty clear. Unfortunately the current government (who were opposed to leaving) are trying their best to find a stalemate. This is all being orchestrated by them and the EU imo.

You will probably get what you want eventually and it won’t be democratic but I’m sure you’ll be happy nonetheless.

A lot of folks voted the way the loud moths told them there's be an extra 350 million for the NHS. Remind me who arranged this and how accurate the statement turned out to be again...?

They won't' get what they want, they'll get what the ultimately deserve regardless of whether they were brainwashed, selfish, too ignorant to read something objective or simply don't care how **** things get.