DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb · 28-07-2020 5:41pm

crushproof wrote: »

Easy few thousand quid for the marketing genius who came up with that.

Exactly. Who needs simple but effective things like integrated ticketing, a streamlined design-build-operate procedure for new projects or affordable fares when you can have 5 rounds of public consultation per scheme, glossy brochures coming out the yazoo, a couple of changes to the bus livery per year and let another office newyear party go by with no progress on major projects and only marginal improvements to existing(dire by first world standards) services.

ncounties · 28-07-2020 6:10pm

What's going to be the new name for DART Underground/Interconnector... "DART -"?

loyatemu · 28-07-2020 6:14pm

ncounties wrote: »

What's going to be the new name for DART Underground/Interconnector... "DART -"?

DARK

Kevtherev1 · 28-07-2020 7:44pm

ncounties wrote: »

What's going to be the new name for DART Underground/Interconnector... "DART -"?

They might ape the germans calling it U-Dart +
Wheres my check? lol

Sam Russell · 28-07-2020 8:25pm

.... just DURT - Dart Underground Rapid Transit.

ncounties · 28-07-2020 8:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

.... just DURT - Dart Underground Rapid Transit.

Ha!

loyatemu · 28-07-2020 8:47pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

.... just DURT - Dart Underground Rapid Transit.

so the existing line could be Dublin Overground Rapid Transit, or the DORT, which is what they already call it in Blackrock.

highdef · 29-07-2020 12:50am

Sam Russell wrote: »

.... just DURT - Dart Underground Rapid Transit.

I read that as Dublin Area Rapid Transit Underground Rapid Transit ???

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 10:02am

highdef wrote: »

I read that as Dublin Area Rapid Transit Underground Rapid Transit ???

Your right, Dublin Underground Rapid Transport - but over analysing a joke never improves it.

SeanW · 29-07-2020 2:20pm

loyatemu wrote: »

so the existing line could be Dublin Overground Rapid Transit, or the DORT, which is what they already call it in Blackrock.

They would need to call it "DORSH" for that

but alas I cannot think of an acronym that would fit

Sam Russell · 29-07-2020 2:26pm

SeanW wrote: »

They would need to call it "DORSH" for that but alas I cannot think of an acronym that would fit

Dublin Overground Railway Serving Howth.

Joking aside, can we get back on topic.

marno21 · 30-07-2020 11:36pm

Kildare Line Engineering Consultants tender awarded to Atkins/TYPSA/TUC

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/233056

D.L.R. · 03-08-2020 9:31pm

Anyone know whether the Pearse roof works were completed by July as scheduled, or delayed due to covid? As usual Irish Rail providing no information.

Cheers.

goingnowhere · 03-08-2020 9:33pm

Fully complete ahead of schedule

dublinman1990 · 04-08-2020 1:43am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Anyone know whether the Pearse roof works were completed by July as scheduled, or delayed due to covid? As usual Irish Rail providing no information.

Cheers.

Yes. It is finished. Here's some photographs from Rail Scene Ireland. It looks brilliant. The guys who did the work for IÉ did a terrific job.

L1011 · 05-08-2020 6:13pm

The presser about the Kildare line design project specifically mentions 1.5kV DC - it had been suggested here that 25kV AC was going to be used with new units being dual mode.

CatInABox · 05-08-2020 8:20pm

L1011 wrote: »

The presser about the Kildare line design project specifically mentions 1.5kV DC - it had been suggested here that 25kV AC was going to be used with new units being dual mode.

Yeah, pretty sure that was me thinking that was a possibility, but I also said it was almost certainly the way I was reading it :pac:

Regardless, it's great to see movement on this.

ncounties · 05-08-2020 8:25pm

Can I ask what difference does it make? I'm not good when it comes to electrics.

Sam Russell · 05-08-2020 9:19pm

ncounties wrote: »

Can I ask what difference does it make? I'm not good when it comes to electrics.

The higher the voltage, the fewer substations needed, but the more bridge clearance needed.

AngryLips · 05-08-2020 10:07pm

Does this tender include any new stations for the line?

L1011 · 05-08-2020 11:16pm

ncounties wrote: »

Can I ask what difference does it make? I'm not good when it comes to electrics.

Additionally to what Sam said, 1500V DC is now an old technology and not always in the standard set of supported power modes for a manufacturer - 25kV AC is much more common. It could have been cheaper in future to get 25kV AC units -but its not that likely the existing DART will ever be changed.

AngryLips wrote: »

Does this tender include any new stations for the line?

One at Kylemore Road was in the original spec, its not in the presser but I'd expect its still there.

Glasnevin detailed design (for the non-Metrolink bits) is probably part of the Maynooth line design, which is already awarded - someone probably knows better info on that.

Cabra is still on the cards long-term but not initially it'd seem.

dublinman1990 · 06-08-2020 5:13am

From what I can assume on this bit of news (about DART Plus) is that the NTA now has to do a new advertising campaign on what this project is about once it gets implemented for any Irish rail passengers intending to use this new service in Dublin. I would also say that when rail passengers are out there using the new bi-mode railcars that are planned to be purchased by the operator for this project. This new ad campaign will be there to fully explain it's benefits to the public at large while at the same time it would be making progress to build the infrastructure to support it & eventually begin to run it's new services on Dublin's rail network.

I only read this information only within the last week or so as it took me by surprise. I would say that because it had been proposed by IÉ to call it DART U instead of DART Underground a few years ago. But that name never took off because of delays from the Irish government to delay the project because they said they couldn't afford to build it. You then had these numerous redesigns by the NTA that was going to shorten it down to have that turnback facility ending at Pearse Station only.

That stupid redesign exercise was regarded a complete joke in the public eye's in my opinion because it would never been able to deliver on the promised benefits & capacity enhancements of the DART service while it connected all of the major rail lines in Dublin except with leaving the Dublin - Belfast line out of the picture altogether with no underground tunnel available to get the train from either Drogheda or Howth to the other side of the city. To leave that part of the DART line out to fend for itself while it was left to run expanded rail services to Drogheda on it's existing rail infrastructure with no proper thought of how they couldn't cope with running the trains properly into the future with running more rail services was short-sighted & not properly thought out by the people involved in designing the project.

That's my two cents.

Pete_Cavan · 06-08-2020 8:16am

L1011 wrote: »

The presser about the Kildare line design project specifically mentions 1.5kV DC - it had been suggested here that 25kV AC was going to be used with new units being dual mode.

Is there a link for this? I'd like to read more but I don't anything when googling.

Pete_Cavan · 06-08-2020 8:31am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I only read this information only within the last week or so as it took me by surprise. I would say that because it had been proposed by IÉ to call it DART U instead of DART Underground a few years ago. But that name never took off because of delays from the Irish government to delay the project because they said they couldn't afford to build it. You then had these numerous redesigns by the NTA that was going to shorten it down to have that turnback facility ending at Pearse Station only.

That stupid redesign exercise was regarded a complete joke in the public eye's in my opinion because it would never been able to deliver on the promised benefits & capacity enhancements of the DART service while it connected all of the major rail lines in Dublin except with leaving the Dublin - Belfast line out of the picture altogether with no underground tunnel available to get the train from either Drogheda or Howth to the other side of the city. To leave that part of the DART line out to fend for itself while it was left to run expanded rail services to Drogheda on it's existing rail infrastructure with no proper thought of how they couldn't cope with running the trains properly into the future with running more rail services was short-sighted & not properly thought out by the people involved in designing the project.

That's my two cents.

Pretty sure the project has only officially been known as DART Underground, DART U is just shorthand used on the internet.

What is happening now is the non-tunnel elements of the project. These really should have started earlier rather than everything being piled into a single project which was too big/complicated/expensive. Getting the non-tunnel elements done now we make the tunnel more likely to happen in future, a chunk of the cost will have already been expended so the tunnel project will cost less but still deliver all the same benefits. The tunnel needs a redesign due to the big SSG interchange station not being provided under Metro as originally intended. Also, if quad-tracking is extended to Heuston under DART+, the tunnel can then surface at Heuston rather than extending to Inchicore.

AngryLips · 06-08-2020 8:32am

L1011 wrote: »

One at Kylemore Road was in the original spec, its not in the presser but I'd expect its still there.

Glasnevin detailed design (for the non-Metrolink bits) is probably part of the Maynooth line design, which is already awarded - someone probably knows better info on that.

Cabra is still on the cards long-term but not initially it'd seem.

Disappointing that there's no station for Inchicore or for a stop at Heuston for Connolly bound services.

roadmaster · 06-08-2020 1:38pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The higher the voltage, the fewer substations needed, but the more bridge clearance needed.

Would any bridges need to be raised ?

roadmaster · 06-08-2020 1:43pm

L1011 wrote: »

Additionally to what Sam said, 1500V DC is now an old technology and not always in the standard set of supported power modes for a manufacturer - 25kV AC is much more common. It could have been cheaper in future to get 25kV AC units -but its not that likely the existing DART will ever be changed.

One at Kylemore Road was in the original spec, its not in the presser but I'd expect its still there.

Glasnevin detailed design (for the non-Metrolink bits) is probably part of the Maynooth line design, which is already awarded - someone probably knows better info on that.

Cabra is still on the cards long-term but not initially it'd seem.

Is Heuston West gone?

LXFlyer · 06-08-2020 2:26pm

I think that people are putting carts before horses here.

The detailed plans have yet to be published - only the high level brochure.

Let’s wait and see before concluding whether the stations such as Cabra and Heuston West aren’t happening.

Sam Russell · 06-08-2020 3:39pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Would any bridges need to be raised ?

They had to raise bridges when the Dart was put in originally (or lowre the track bed). They may have to raise bridges (almost certainly) so lets hope they raise them high enough to allow for the extra clearance required for 25 kv.

spacetweek · 06-08-2020 9:43pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is there a link for this? I'd like to read more but I don't anything when googling.

Is this it?

BonnieSituation · 06-08-2020 10:18pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Disappointing that there's no station for Inchicore or for a stop at Heuston for Connolly bound services.

roadmaster wrote: »

Is Heuston West gone?

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think that people are putting carts before horses here.

The detailed plans have yet to be published - only the high level brochure.

Let’s wait and see before concluding whether the stations such as Cabra and Heuston West aren’t happening.

Absolutely LXFlyer.

I looked at the brochure earlier. They've only put on some indicative stations so they're not blank lines.

Peregrine · 06-08-2020 11:34pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is there a link for this? I'd like to read more but I don't anything when googling.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/kildare-line-expansion-project-contract-awarded/57107.article

roadmaster wrote: »

Is Heuston West gone?

It's looking like Heuston West is Kylemore.

Peregrine · 07-08-2020 12:22am

From the tenders:

Hazelhatch:

• Completition of 4 tracking from Parkwest into Heuston Station.
• Electrification and re-signalling of the Kildare Line from Hazelhatch to Heuston and through the Phoenix park tunnel to the west side of Glasnevin junction.
• Structural works associated with the 4-tracking and renewal of the South Circular Road, Memorial Road, Sarsfield Road, Kylemore Road and Le Fanu Road bridges.
• Development of a new station at Kylemore.
• Realignment works to accommodate segregation of DART and Intercity.
• Any upgrade works with Phoenix Park Tunnel.
• Passive provision for development of DART underground at a later date.

Maynooth:

• Remodelling Connolly Station and Docklands Station to increase capacity.
• Modifications at key junction approaching Connolly/Docklands Station from north and west to
support increased services and flexibility.
• Elimination of level crossings on the Maynooth Line and provision of alternative new bridges, as
appropriate, for pedestrians, cyclists and vehicles.
• Electrification and power supply to support the projected capacity increases.
• Signalling and telecommunications infrastructure to support the projected capacity increases.
• Provision of a new train depot.
• Infrastructure modifications to facilitate overall project.
• Integration of DART Expansion with MetroLink and other public transport schemes.

BonnieSituation · 07-08-2020 12:33am

Peregrine wrote: »

From the tenders:

Hazelhatch:

• Passive provision for development of DART underground at a later date.

That's all important.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 6:39am

Peregrine wrote: »

https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/kildare-line-expansion-project-contract-awarded/57107.article

It's looking like Heuston West is Kylemore.

Heuston West is not Kylemore. It is an additional station planned to be built just before the Phoenix Park Tunnel (provide a platform 11 opposite platform 10).

Pete_Cavan · 07-08-2020 7:22am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Heuston West is not Kylemore. It is an additional station planned to be built just before the Phoenix Park Tunnel (provide a platform 11 opposite platform 10).

I thought Heuston West was intended to be Chapelizod Bypass/SCR junction? That way it is actually accessible for passengers in Kilmainham and Islandbridge and could be used by daytrippers to Kilmainham Gaol, IMMA, War Memorial Gardens, etc. It would also be a good interchange point allowing DART users change to a commuter service into Heuston before the DART heads to the PPT.

Rulmeq · 07-08-2020 7:29am

Just out of curiosity, is there room for a link from the PPT into Heuston itself?

ncounties · 07-08-2020 7:46am

spacetweek wrote: »

Is this it?

From that document:

Kildare Line:
Bridge reconstructions arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances, as necessary

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 8:22am

Rulmeq wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, is there room for a link from the PPT into Heuston itself?

Not really and it’s not on any plan.

It isn’t needed.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 9:07am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I thought Heuston West was intended to be Chapelizod Bypass/SCR junction? That way it is actually accessible for passengers in Kilmainham and Islandbridge and could be used by daytrippers to Kilmainham Gaol, IMMA, War Memorial Gardens, etc. It would also be a good interchange point allowing DART users change to a commuter service into Heuston before the DART heads to the PPT.

I don’t think there’s enough space there for a station, and I also think that it would be highly unlikely to be served by Heuston terminators - you’re only going to fit a two platform station in that area.

I understood it that it would be further east with access through Clancy Quay.

But again, no detail has been published for any of this.

We need to see concrete plans first!

cgcsb · 07-08-2020 9:31am

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

donvito99 · 07-08-2020 9:38am

cgcsb wrote: »

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

Without Dart Underground the Kylemore, Ballyfermot area are better served to the City Centre (at least) by bus.

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

It may be possible to have buses terminate at platform 10 allowing for an interchange to the City Centre. This isn't proposed in Bus Connects obviously but if you terminated the likes of the 145 and 46A and routed both down the quays it'd be a useful connection.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 10:01am

cgcsb wrote: »

It would be ridiculous if there were no stops between Kylemore and Glasnevin interchange. That's a 7km distance through a relatively central area, what kind of urban transit system is that?

A stop at Heuston West and Cabra should be provided. There is plenty of space to provide a pedestrian causeway of travelators and they can take some space off the surface car park to extend the main station concourse. The walking distance to the existing main concourse would be about half a km which is nothing compared to what passengers do at airports and some of the mainline stations on mainland Europe.

To be honest I would be very surprised if those two stops (Heuston West & Cabra) did not happen. They are entirely logical.

Again no detailed plans have been published - just a high level overview.

In planning Heuston West, do remember that there will still be commuter services to/from Heuston - I’m not sure that a network of travelators is entirely necessary.

cgcsb · 07-08-2020 10:13am

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be honest I would be very surprised if those two stops (Heuston West & Cabra) did not happen. They are entirely logical.

Again no detailed plans have been published - just a high level overview.

In planning Heuston West, do remember that there will still be commuter services to/from Heuston - I’m not sure that a network of travelators is entirely necessary.

A decent covered walking route should be the minimum.

cgcsb · 07-08-2020 10:18am

donvito99 wrote: »

Without Dart Underground the Kylemore, Ballyfermot area are better served to the City Centre (at least) by bus.

It may be possible to have buses terminate at platform 10 allowing for an interchange to the City Centre. This isn't proposed in Bus Connects obviously but if you terminated the likes of the 145 and 46A and routed both down the quays it'd be a useful connection.

It's not just about An Lar it's about creating good connections. Without a stop in Cabra then you've no interchange potential with the green line luas, ignoring Heuston and passing within half a km of it is madness, it's the country's biggest station. Good connections make the network, If you can image when this is done a journey from Hazelhatch to Finglas for example will be much paster by PT than by road. At present there are hardly any suburb-suburb journeys that can claim that.

loyatemu · 07-08-2020 10:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

A decent covered walking route should be the minimum.

agreed, for a country with notoriously variable weather (albeit Dublin is the driest bit) we're terrible at building our infrastructure to provide decent shelter for people. The cliché is "it'd be a great country if you put a roof on it" yet we keep building stations with no roof and shelters that fit 2 people and don't effectively keep out the rain </rant>

cgcsb · 07-08-2020 10:51am

loyatemu wrote: »

agreed, for a country with notoriously variable weather (albeit Dublin is the driest bit) we're terrible at building our infrastructure to provide decent shelter for people. The cliché is "it'd be a great country if you put a roof on it" yet we keep building stations with no roof and shelters that fit 2 people and don't effectively keep out the rain </rant>

I find this strangely common in North European (rainy) countries. The Netherlands / Germany / Belgium have most stations open air. Sweden has everything covered generally but I think that's more to avoid hypothermia than rain. But then in Spain, most stations are covered. It's a weird one but I think it's more got to do with natural light than rain. If you go into traditional Spanish houses you would need night vision goggles, only tiny windows facing the wrong way, I guess they needed a break from the sun where as at this latitude we love a bit of south facing glass.

Peregrine · 07-08-2020 10:54am

LXFlyer wrote: »

Heuston West is not Kylemore. It is an additional station planned to be built just before the Phoenix Park Tunnel (provide a platform 11 opposite platform 10).

Unless something has changed recently, Heuston West was going to be a station on the mainline and not the PPT line. There were no plans to develop Platform 10.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 11:08am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not just about An Lar it's about creating good connections. Without a stop in Cabra then you've no interchange potential with the green line luas, ignoring Heuston and passing within half a km of it is madness, it's the country's biggest station. Good connections make the network, If you can image when this is done a journey from Hazelhatch to Finglas for example will be much paster by PT than by road. At present there are hardly any suburb-suburb journeys that can claim that.

I would suspect that the station in Cabra won’t be beside the Green Line - The most suitable location would be between Cabra Road and Faussagh Avenue where there is development planned as well.

The tunnels over and the tight curvature of the railway line closer to the Green Line mean that area is unlikely to be suitable for a station.

LXFlyer · 07-08-2020 11:10am

Peregrine wrote: »

Unless something has changed recently, Heuston West was going to be a station on the mainline and not the PPT line. There were no plans to develop Platform 10.

Perhaps thinking has changed - the last concepts I heard were the latter.

But we have no detailed plans either way - that’s really my point.

None of us can say with any certainty what’s planned.

It makes this discussion pointless until detailed plans are presented.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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