Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

munsterlegend · 16-09-2018 12:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Brexiteers eh. Failing yet again when comes to any intellectual arguments about this whole thing.

Hardly surprising? The whole Brexit leave campaign was based on lies and scaremongering. The little Englanders who drove this are just using northern unionists as a pawn in their game. They couldn’t care less about the north as showed by that the person May sent to be in charge didn’t grasp who voted for who up north!! I don’t know which was worse that Bradley actually didn’t know or being stupid enough to admitting to not knowing.

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 12:59pm

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

The same study I referenced earlier also stated that although GDP per head was lower in the north that that in the south the standard of living was higher. I believe that nobody knows what impact the UK leaving the EU will have on the UK or the ROI, be that by a hard or soft exit. Economists are wide of the mark more times then not in my opinion, recent history tells me that. However if the figures in the study are correct and the UK continues to subsidies NI as it is currently doing and the standard of living remains above that of the south it is not inconceivable that those in the north would choose to remain part of the UK.

I firmly believe that a referendum on a united Ireland would result in a no vote in the south if it meant such a massive financial burden would result.

The subvention to northern Ireland is already being cut. How DUP Brexiteers have convinced themselves that it will increase again from (if you believe Mogg) an economy that will be in decline after Leaving, is anybody's guess.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:00pm

Do you think many down south could fathom NI politics? I consider myself to be pretty clued up but yet I couldn’t tell ya which party enda or the current Irish pm are from. I’m serious about this. Even ardent provos wouldn’t have a clue....

munsterlegend · 16-09-2018 1:08pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Do you think many down south could fathom NI politics? I consider myself to be pretty clued up but yet I couldn’t tell ya which party enda or the current Irish pm are from. I’m serious about this. Even ardent provos wouldn’t have a clue....

Perhaps you should read more. They are on the Belfast Telegraph or the newsletter every second day.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:14pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Do you think many down south could fathom NI politics? I consider myself to be pretty clued up but yet I couldn’t tell ya which party enda or the current Irish pm are from. I’m serious about this. Even ardent provos wouldn’t have a clue....

Perhaps you should read more. They are on the Belfast Telegraph or the newsletter every second day.

Only because he is toeing the Eu line like the teachers pet. I still maintain that few in NI from either side could say for sure if he is FG or FF. that is a fact.

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 1:16pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Only because he is toeing the Eu line like the teachers pet. I still maintain that few in NI from either side could say for sure if he is FG or FF. that is a fact.

Very difficult not to envisage the intelligence of your circle of acquaintances after reading this.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:24pm

So are you saying that most of your fellow sfers up north would have a clue about the politics down south? You would be sadly mistaken if so pal.

16-09-2018 1:25pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Oh I’m quite confident. The EU is only a country club, not a jail right? We will be fine. I wasn’t even particularly caring about leaving the Eu. I voted leave btw but since the vote I’m very much more for it for it now.

Plenty of so called intellectuals were communists and supported the soviet regime.. Plenty of these so called smart people are idiots when it comes to real life.

Hmmm.

Statement: "we will be fine"

Question: "How do you know you will be fine?"

Response: "because we will".

Sums up nicely the pro-Brexit argument up to now. As to your anti-intellectual line, I didn't know many thought Michael Gove was a genius.....

indioblack · 16-09-2018 1:32pm

droidman123 wrote: »

I have always had the opinion that the union jack flag,like the swaztika flag should be banned for what it represented.i cannot fathom how that flag is accepted worldwide.the sooner it is dismantled and put in the same grave as the swaztika the better

Well, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you're right and the rest of the world is wrong.

munsterlegend · 16-09-2018 1:32pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Only because he is toeing the Eu line like the teachers pet. I still maintain that few in NI from either side could say for sure if he is FG or FF. that is a fact.

We share the same island so our leader of the part which takes up 4/5 of the island is kind of important especially given we are indirectly involved in the running of your part! As much as Unionists like to think we are in separate galaxies we are heavily in the 6 counties and always will be.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Oh I’m quite confident. The EU is only a country club, not a jail right? We will be fine. I wasn’t even particularly caring about leaving the Eu. I voted leave btw but since the vote I’m very much more for it for it now.

Plenty of so called intellectuals were communists and supported the soviet regime.. Plenty of these so called smart people are idiots when it comes to real life.

Hmmm.

Statement: "we will be fine"

Question: "How do you know you will be fine?"

Response: "because we will".

Sums up nicely the pro-Brexit argument up to now. As to your anti-intellectual line, I didn't know many thought Michael Gove was a genius.....

Are you concerned about the effect brexit could have on the south.? Especially if it goes as bad as you imply.... I’m not a bed wetter personally. The uk is big enough to stand on its own especially since we buy more from Europe than we sell. Calm down dear....

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:34pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Only because he is toeing the Eu line like the teachers pet. I still maintain that few in NI from either side could say for sure if he is FG or FF. that is a fact.

We share the same island so our leader of the part which takes up 4/5 of the island is kind of important especially given we are indirectly involved in the running of your part! As much as Unionists like to think we are in separate galaxies we are heavily in the 6 counties and always will be.

Good. Will you pay half of republican west Belfast’s apparent disability and sickness problem?. Lol.

munsterlegend · 16-09-2018 1:40pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Good. Will you pay half of republican west Belfast’s apparent disability and sickness problem?. Lol.

Have you got official figures or make it up as you go along ones?! Sure everyone know the north’s economy is a basket case.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 1:43pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Good. Will you pay half of republican west Belfast’s apparent disability and sickness problem?. Lol.

Have you got official figures or make it up as you go along ones?! Sure everyone know the north’s economy is a basket case.

Official figures re west Belfast? No..... but I work in that field and let me tell you that there seems to be a lot of sickness in west Belfast..... the only thing they don’t claim is malaria and I’m waiting to hear that too soon.... (global warming)) lol.....

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 1:53pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

Have you got official figures or make it up as you go along ones?! Sure everyone know the north’s economy is a basket case.

Quite a few deprived areas in one of the top ten most impoverished areas of western Europe.

Timthumni only seems to want to talk about one of those areas though.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/11/23/news/belfast-contains-half-of-northern-ireland-s-100-most-deprived-areas-1195392/

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 2:15pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

munsterlegend wrote: »

Have you got official figures or make it up as you go along ones?! Sure everyone know the north’s economy is a basket case.

Quite a few deprived areas in one of the top ten most impoverished areas of western Europe.

Timthumni only seems to want to talk about one of those areas though.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/11/23/news/belfast-contains-half-of-northern-ireland-s-100-most-deprived-areas-1195392/

Impoverished.? Or just good at claiming benefits??. Ardoyne is the west Belfast btw but they are the north equivalents. Ethiopia would have nothing on thes3 poor specimens..... allegedly...

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 2:20pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Impoverished.? Or just good at claiming benefits??. Ardoyne is the west Belfast btw but they are the north equivalents. Ethiopia would have nothing on thes3 poor specimens..... allegedly...

I have no doubt they claim benefits.
Tends to be a feature of areas left to rot in generational unemployment and lack of investment and in the top ten of most impoverished areas in Western Europe.

Have you any stats that suggest this area is any worse (benefit claiming wise) than any of the other top 10 UK areas on the list?

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 2:27pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Impoverished.? Or just good at claiming benefits??. Ardoyne is the west Belfast btw but they are the north equivalents. Ethiopia would have nothing on thes3 poor specimens..... allegedly...

I have no doubt they claim benefits.
Tends to be a feature of areas left to rot in generational unemployment and lack of investment and in the top ten of most impoverished areas in Western Europe.

Have you any stats that suggest this area is any worse (benefit claiming wise) than any of the other top 10 UK areas on the list?

Even west Belfasties themselves laugh at how ****e their area is. Rampant joyriding, anti social behaviour etc. It’s almost as bad as some areas of Dublin.

I think the survey is full of eu **** tbh. The uk is one of the richest areas of Western Europe... and a great buyer of Irish goods. Mess with that at your peril... carry on .....

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 2:50pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Even west Belfasties themselves laugh at how ****e their area is. Rampant joyriding, anti social behaviour etc. It’s almost as bad as some areas of Dublin.

I think the survey is full of eu **** tbh. The uk is one of the richest areas of Western Europe... and a great buyer of Irish goods. Mess with that at your peril... carry on .....

Some people are rich and others aren't. And the divide between them deepens. You unfortunates facing Brexit will quickly realise that it was orchestrated by those who want to get even richer at your expense.
Jocob Rees knows the value of 'Dublin' as he has moved some of his many funds to there to insulate them from the ****storm that is coming.

That's 'Dublin' Tim, the place you think will be joining you on the downward spiral. Dublin and the south will take a knock during your lunacy but it will be in halpenny place when compared to what happens the north.

Just remember, there will always be a welcome/cead mile failte on the mat when youse are ready!

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 2:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Even west Belfasties themselves laugh at how ****e their area is. Rampant joyriding, anti social behaviour etc. It’s almost as bad as some areas of Dublin.

I think the survey is full of eu **** tbh. The uk is one of the richest areas of Western Europe... and a great buyer of Irish goods. Mess with that at your peril... carry on .....

Some people are rich and others aren't. And the divide between them deepens. You unfortunates facing Brexit will quickly realise that it was orchestrated by those who want to get even richer at your expense.
Jocob Rees knows the value of 'Dublin' as he has moved some of his many funds to there to insulate them from the ****storm that is coming.

That's 'Dublin' Tim, the place you think will be joining you on the downward spiral. Dublin and the south will take a knock during your lunacy but it will be in halpenny place when compared to what happens the north.

Just remember, there will always be a welcome/cead mile failte on the mat when youse are ready!

Jaysus. That post is just a load of gibberish even for you francie... lol.

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 2:59pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Jaysus. That post is just a load of gibberish even for you francie... lol.

Quelle suprise, Tim has no answer.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 3:22pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Jaysus. That post is just a load of gibberish even for you francie... lol.

Quelle suprise, Tim has no answer.

But you didn’t ask a question francie... you just had a bout of verbal diarrhoea....

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 3:25pm

timthumbni wrote: »

But you didn’t ask a question francie... you just had a bout of verbal diarrhoea....

Says the guy that has been flailing all around him in spite of the actual evidence presented to him.

You'll be alright Tim, Brexit away, you'll be fine.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 3:34pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

But you didn’t ask a question francie... you just had a bout of verbal diarrhoea....

Says the guy that has been flailing all around him in spite of the actual evidence presented to him.

You'll be alright Tim, Brexit away, you'll be fine.

I’ve already said that I don’t care much about brexit. I voted to leave but I don’t really care. The reason is because small guys like me won’t be effected much either way. I live my life francie. Being in an overpriced country club like the Eu means feck all to me. Life will go on after brexit believe me. You do realise that SF was against the Eu unTIL quite recently and a lot of the NI workers unions campaigned for an exit too.

And these trivial things like the eu charging uk holiday makers a tenner to go to Ibiza make me laugh. Go ahead if they want. The brits are their main moneymakers. I hope they raise it to 5 grand a time.

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 3:38pm

timthumbni wrote: »

I’ve already said that I don’t care much about brexit. I voted to leave but I don’t really care. The reason is because small guys like me won’t be effected much either way. I live my life francie. Being in an overpriced country club like the Eu means feck all to me. Life will go on after brexit believe me. You do realise that SF was against the Eu unTIL quite recently and a lot of the NI workers unions campaigned for an exit too.

And these trivial things like the eu charging uk holiday makers a tenner to go to Ibiza make me laugh. Go ahead if they want. The brits are their main moneymakers. I hope they raise it to 5 grand a time.

I think I am speaking for most people here when I say 'oh dear' in response to that.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 3:40pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

I’ve already said that I don’t care much about brexit. I voted to leave but I don’t really care. The reason is because small guys like me won’t be effected much either way. I live my life francie. Being in an overpriced country club like the Eu means feck all to me. Life will go on after brexit believe me. You do realise that SF was against the Eu unTIL quite recently and a lot of the NI workers unions campaigned for an exit too.

And these trivial things like the eu charging uk holiday makers a tenner to go to Ibiza make me laugh. Go ahead if they want. The brits are their main moneymakers. I hope they raise it to 5 grand a time.

I think I am speaking for most people here when I say 'oh dear' in response to that.

There's probably not many people interested francie tbh. As I said earlier it’s like Gerry offering his brother as baby sitter. Not many takers...... lol...

FrancieBrady · 16-09-2018 3:45pm

timthumbni wrote: »

There's probably not many people interested francie tbh.

When you see a unionist take to bile, you can be sure a cage has been rattled. White knuckle time approaching fast it seems.

You remind me of Arlene in so many ways.

timthumbni · 16-09-2018 3:53pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

There's probably not many people interested francie tbh.

When you see a unionist take to bile, you can be sure a cage has been rattled. White knuckle time approaching fast it seems.

You remind me of Arlene in so many ways.

Lol francie. ....... lol......

The Rape of Lucretia · 21-09-2018 1:41pm

Big, unplanned, game changer statement imminent from Theresa on the steps of No. 10.

Is it,

1) Announcement of her agreement with Leo that Eire rejoining the Union is the best step for evsrybody, and a referrendum on Breunion will be held in Ireland on it, with all parties, North and South backing Breunion.

or

2) She is coming clean with the UK, sayin Brexit is national suicide and must be reversed, that she will hold a new referrendum there, and that all UK parties, bar UKIP and The JRM Fan Club, will support Remain.

In 5 mins......

swampgas · 21-09-2018 2:06pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Big, unplanned, game changer statement imminent from Theresa on the steps of No. 10.

Is it,

1) Announcement of her agreement with Leo that Eire rejoining the Union is the best step for evsrybody, and a referrendum on Breunion will be held in Ireland on it, with all parties, North and South backing Breunion.

or

2) She is coming clean with the UK, sayin Brexit is national suicide and must be reversed, that she will hold a new referrendum there, and that all UK parties, bar UKIP and The JRM Fan Club, will support Remain.

In 5 mins......

The very definition of "false dichotomy" there ... well done

Kermit.de.frog · 26-09-2018 12:25am

Have they left yet?

The Rape of Lucretia · 30-09-2018 6:14pm

Certainly changes everything if things go according to Boris' plans : advocating a bridge between the north and Scotland. Interesting. And long a dream. Not a fan of Boris' buffoonery, but this could be a real Brexit dividend for everyone on the island, whether in the Breunion scenario, or in the case of the north joining Eire.
Smarter that the air he likes to affect sometimes, B.

Zebra3 · 30-09-2018 8:46pm

A bridge between the north and Scotland is not economically viable.

So that'll be the DUP all over it so.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-09-2018 9:37pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Certainly changes everything if things go according to Boris' plans : advocating a bridge between the north and Scotland. Interesting. And long a dream. Not a fan of Boris' buffoonery, but this could be a real Brexit dividend for everyone on the island, whether in the Breunion scenario, or in the case of the north joining Eire.
Smarter that the air he likes to affect sometimes, B.

Since the proposals are for a bridge on the north side of Belfast it's not much use to us down here. Dublin to anywhere north of Newcastle upon Tyne is faster through Wales. So for us this bridge would only link Scotland to Ulster.

From Belfast anything south of Nottingham is quicker via Dublin, though that may change post-Brexit.

Also ferries count as breaks for drivers. Driving across a bridge doesn't. This also limits the hinterland each side of a bridge. Note that half the trailer traffic into Ireland is unaccompanied, so you don't have to pay the driver during the ferry trip or pay to ferry the tractor across either.

The Chunnel hasn't killed off the Dover ferries because it costs more. An Irish Sea bridge won't be viable unless it can charge enough to pay it's way, and it won't attract the volume of traffic unless it can charge low enough to compete with the ferries.

Junkyard Tom · 30-09-2018 9:58pm

The Channel Tunnel was built between a continent with hundreds of millions of people and an island with over 60m inhabitants. There are direct train services, through the Channel Tunnel, between two of the world's great capitals with a combined population of approximately 20m people. The Channel Tunnel's debt had to be restructured not long after its opening.

Do the DUP, and associated crackpots, really believe a project on a similar scale between the wrong end of an island of six million people and the wrong end of Britain would be viable?

If someone had written a comedy about this clown-show called Brexit five years ago it would have been dismissed as being too silly.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-09-2018 10:08pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Channel Tunnel was built between a continent with hundreds of millions of people and an island with over 60m inhabitants. There are direct train services, through the Channel Tunnel, between two of the world's great capitals with a combined population of approximately 20m people. The Channel Tunnel's debt had to be restructured not long after its opening.

Do the DUP, and associated crackpots, really believe a project on a similar scale between the wrong end of an island of six million people and the wrong end of Britain would be viable?

If someone had written a comedy about this clown-show called Brexit five years ago it would have been dismissed as being too silly.

Very roughly speaking linking Ireland to Great Britain is like liking Japan to Russia via Sakhalin, similar distances so similar costs. Except there's 127 million people on one side and 4.6 billion on the other. Japan exported $688B and imported $575B, Northern Ireland even doesn't get close to 1% of those volumes, nevermind what % of that trade choose to go on a bridge.

The Rape of Lucretia · 30-09-2018 10:19pm

Population isnt really the issue. Its the uniting of island nations.
Look at Denmark for example.

Or the options already considered when no one's wildest dream included Brexit. Yet here we are. And must look at ways to make the best of it.

Chambers of Commerce of Ireland are already backing it :
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23672538

Capt'n Midnight · 30-09-2018 11:05pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Population isnt really the issue. Its the uniting of island nations.
Look at Denmark for example.

Like tunnels the cost of bridges rises exponentially with distance and/or depth.

Ignore any article that compares an Irish Sea bridge or tunnel with something done in shallow water. Adams bridge to Sri Lanka or the bridges in the Florida Keys or Chinese bays or on lakes are trivial compared to deep water.

An estimated 1.17 million tonnes of conventional weapons and chemical weapons have been deposited in Beaufort Dyke.

Hiroshima was equivalent to 0.015 million tonnes of conventional explosives.

Just saying.

Peregrinus · 01-10-2018 2:54am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Population isnt really the issue. Its the uniting of island nations.
Look at Denmark for example.

Or the options already considered when no one's wildest dream included Brexit. Yet here we are. And must look at ways to make the best of it.

Brexit makes the economics of a fixed link more challenging, not less so. People who are interested in "the uniting of island nations" would not be supporters of Brexit, the whole point of which is to separate an island nation.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Chambers of Commerce of Ireland are already backing it :
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23672538

You're quoting an article from 13 years ago in which CCI called for a rail link from Wexford to Pembrokeshire and claiming that this means they "already back" Johnson's suggestion of a road bridge from NI to Scotland?

ancapailldorcha · 01-10-2018 9:33am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Channel Tunnel was built between a continent with hundreds of millions of people and an island with over 60m inhabitants. There are direct train services, through the Channel Tunnel, between two of the world's great capitals with a combined population of approximately 20m people. The Channel Tunnel's debt had to be restructured not long after its opening.

Do the DUP, and associated crackpots, really believe a project on a similar scale between the wrong end of an island of six million people and the wrong end of Britain would be viable?

If someone had written a comedy about this clown-show called Brexit five years ago it would have been dismissed as being too silly.

I once watched an interview with Armando Iannucci who said that he wasn't going to satirise Brexit because he has no idea how.

Zebra3 · 01-10-2018 3:51pm

If the Brits wanna pay for it, good luck to them.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-10-2018 5:49pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

If the Brits wanna pay for it, good luck to them.

With will, commitment, and imagination from both sides, I am sure the means could be found to put concrete to what would be the ultimate bridge building exercise between the two-isles-as-one.
A foundation pillar ceremony in 2022, marking one hundred years, and coinciding with the Festival of Britain, would be a terrific point to launch a Breunion process.

Zebra3 · 01-10-2018 5:53pm

Commitments from both sides for internal UK infrastructure?

Aye.....

Imreoir2 · 01-10-2018 9:50pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

With will, commitment, and imagination from both sides, I am sure the means could be found to put concrete to what would be the ultimate bridge building exercise between the two-isles-as-one.
A foundation pillar ceremony in 2022, marking one hundred years, and coinciding with the Festival of Britain, would be a terrific point to launch a Breunion process.

Why would Ireland want to joint Brexit Britain?

And the festivle of Britain thing is a disgraceful idea, imagine having a festivle aimed at celebrating a union that has caused so much harm to so many people in the North. Having a big flag waiving piss up in Belfast is not going to end in any kind of trouble, or provoke one side of the community at all... :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight · 01-10-2018 10:22pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

And the festivle of Britain thing is a disgraceful idea

Another day with parades and people waving Union Jacks all over place

What could possibly go wrong ?

Capt'n Midnight · 01-10-2018 10:35pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

And the festivle of Britain thing is a disgraceful idea, imagine having a festivle aimed at celebrating a union

The Act Of Union took effect in 1801.

2022 is of course the centenary of when 26 counties left the UK.

Methinks they might not have thought this one through.

The Rape of Lucretia · 01-10-2018 10:43pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Another day with parades and people waving Union Jacks all over place

What could possibly go wrong ?

Nothing. Its a celebration. We need creative and flexible solutions on this issue, and obviously the point is that everyone on the island would be on board with a reconfigured relationship amongst all on these islands. Whats wrong with a Union Jack ? Nothing if your mind is closed to the new possibilities, and buys into the longer term vision. Some of the high horse attitude looking down on little Englander Brexiteers is really the same thing writ small from some in Eire. And to their loss.