Why are women allowed to smoke while pregnant?

Peatys · 15-07-2019 9:48pm

randoplh134 wrote: »

It's not your body so it's none of your business, wife smoked up until 4 months during pregnancies for 3 of our 4 children and each turned out exceptionally healthy.

Why did she stop at 4 months?

ILoveYourVibes · 15-07-2019 10:55pm

Lets face it if you choose to go through a pregnancy. You owe it to yourself your family and the baby to do your best job.

Drinking smoking etc ..whatever chemical stuff you aren't allowed use. (the list seems to be growing did you know you can only use organic skincare and sunscreen?? but also sunburn is dangerous during pregnancy!)

Do your best. It's not easy to eat well abstain etc during this time but you have a responsibility.

nthclare · 15-07-2019 11:04pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

The type of women who smoke while pregnant are also those that think nothing of popping to the shops in their pj’s at 3 in the afternoon. Usually not the sharpest pins in the pack either.

Plenty of Gannets and Patsy and Edina type's have an aul puff and the odd line during pregnancy...

You know the types "absolutely fabulous" women, and the fur coats and no knickers brigade who've only light in the fridge because they're paying off the beamer or Audi...

And don't forget the middle class Gannets drinking vino, smoking outside and shnortin the odd line.....

Sardonicat · 15-07-2019 11:14pm

nthclare wrote: »

Plenty of Gannets and Patsy and Edina type's have an aul puff and the odd line during pregnancy...

You know the types "absolutely fabulous" women, and the fur coats and no knickers brigade who've only light in the fridge because they're paying off the beamer or Audi...

And don't forget the middle class Gannets drinking vino, smoking outside and shnortin the odd line.....

I have never come across anyone named Gannet.

Vlthap · 15-07-2019 11:17pm

xzanti wrote: »

Personally it turns my stomach to see it.

I've heard it said however that the stress of not smoking for the mother could be just as hazardous for the baby as actually smoking.

Who knows.

But what about the newborn baby who has to go through nicotine withdrawals? Surely that's more hazardous?

fatknacker · 15-07-2019 11:21pm

Crush a Nicorette tablet into their milk and sorted.

sabat · 15-07-2019 11:28pm

nthclare wrote: »

Plenty of Gannets and Patsy and Edina type's have an aul puff and the odd line during pregnancy...

You know the types "absolutely fabulous" women, and the fur coats and no knickers brigade who've only light in the fridge because they're paying off the beamer or Audi...

And don't forget the middle class Gannets drinking vino, smoking outside and shnortin the odd line.....

That's just an oxymoron. If you're taking coke when you're pregnant you're not middle class, just a filthy knacker. I know of one woman from the inner city who kept up her daily diet of L&M Red, zimmos and weed, plus booze at the weekend right until she went into hospital-the child died a few days after she brought him home.

Gimme A Pound · 15-07-2019 11:34pm

I don't get the Handmaid's Tale references and such, as if it's an oppression of women thing. Someone even suggested it would be like Saudi Arabia if such a measure were brought in - wtf? To protect an unborn baby?

That said, I don't see how they can be stopped but smoking heavily while pregnant (whatever about the very occasional one when trying to give up) is sh1tty. I don't understand the objection to criticism of it.

volchitsa wrote: »

So having tried to ban breastfeeding women from the public sphere, the OP now wants to control pregnant women.

Pregnant women smoking.

Deleted User wrote: »

Their bodies. Their choice.

It's not just their bodies though.

BarryD2 wrote: »

Sure and ban the drinking as well while you're at it - all that alcohol in the system can't be good for the new baba. Problem is that you can put bans on these sort of things but you can never implement them, so they're worthless.

Yeah heavy drinking when pregnant is also sh1tty.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Say a woman doesnt smoke in pregancy, but her husband smokes like a chimney around the kids.
Is the man smoking around them ok?

Of course not. Nobody said it was. Parents should not smoke around their children. Adults should not smoke around any non smokers, above all children.

volchitsa wrote: »

She was only doing the same as you. Maybe she was as addicted as you were?

But he wasn't pregnant.

Limpy · 15-07-2019 11:37pm

How close are some women to Sharon from the snapper these days I wonder.

ShooterSF · 15-07-2019 11:40pm

Pauliedragon wrote: »

When my ex worked in pubs she used to refuse to serve booze to pregnant women. A lot of heated conversations were had. She revels in conflict though.

Jesus. I work in bars and would never dare do this. What next? Telling a family their fat kid can't have a burger and a coke? Where in the service industry not the judging people industry.

Gimme A Pound · 16-07-2019 12:04am

People judge all the time. I wouldn't feel comfortable serving pregnant women a lot of drink. Although it wouldn't be my place to refuse.

ceadaoin. · 16-07-2019 12:10am

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

I don't get the Handmaid's Tale references and such, as if it's an oppression of women thing. Someone even suggested it would be like Saudi Arabia if such a measure were brought in - wtf? To protect an unborn baby?

That said, I don't see how they can be stopped but smoking heavily while pregnant (whatever about the very occasional one when trying to give up) is sh1tty. I don't understand the objection to criticism of it.

Pregnant women smoking.

It's not just their bodies though.

Yeah heavy drinking when pregnant is also sh1tty.

Of course not. Nobody said it was. Parents should not smoke around their children. Adults should not smoke around any non smokers, above all children.

But he wasn't pregnant.

Where do you draw the line though? Being obese during pregnancy is just as bad for the baby as smoking. Stress is bad too. Driving? Using stairs? Going out at all? Those are all increasing the risk of something happening to hurt the foetus. At the end of the day, most women are capable of making the right choices for their children and of making reasonable risk assessments of what activities they partake in when pregnant. Judging them or banning certain things aren't going to make a bit of difference and would be impossible to police anyway.

And no, that poster wasn't pregnant but the fact that he was a smoker increased his child's risk of SIDS. How come no one is slating him or saying he shouldn't be allowed to have kids?

Gimme A Pound · 16-07-2019 12:20am

I still don't understand the objection to just having a negative opinion of it though. It's like because they're pregnant women they are above criticism, and any criticism could only be coming from a place of misogyny/wanting to control women, when it's only a criticism of a behaviour, which we all do.

I'm not looking to draw a line. Climbing stairs, driving, going out - these can be necessary. Heavy smoking or drinking isn't, eating loads of junkfood when pregnant isn't, obesity and pregnancy is a big risk.

I know nothing I write will stop it but you could say that about loads of things. It's just expressing a point of view.

If Boom Bap smoked around non smokers, particularly children, I would be critical of him, but I don't know if he did.

Peatys · 16-07-2019 12:28am

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Where do you draw the line though?

Smoking

ceadaoin. · 16-07-2019 12:32am

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

I still don't understand the objection to just having a negative opinion of it though. It's like because they're pregnant women they are above criticism, and any criticism could only be coming from a place of misogyny/wanting to control women, when it's only a criticism of a behaviour, which we all do.

I'm not looking to draw a line. Climbing stairs, driving, going out - these can be necessary. Heavy smoking or drinking isn't, eating loads of junkfood when pregnant isn't, obesity and pregnancy is a big risk.

I know nothing I write will stop it but you could say that about loads of things. It's just expressing a point of view.

If Boom Bap smoked around non smokers, particularly children, I would be critical of him, but I don't know if he did.

Of course, I do view smoking negatively , and even more so during pregnancy given that the risks are known. I think that pregnant women should do their best not to smoke, but sometimes they fail and need support, not judgement. That's what stops women from seeking help. The same with heavy drinkers, drug users or even over eaters which can be addictive behaviour for some. It's not as easy as "just stopping".

The Op asked why pregnant women are "allowed" to smoke. I think it's obvious from the way it was phrased where they are coming from.

Gimme A Pound · 16-07-2019 1:53am

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The Op asked why pregnant women are "allowed" to smoke. I think it's obvious from the way it was phrased where they are coming from.

Oh for sure. But ignoring that, and just looking at the topic in general, I do think there are folk who just don't give a sh1t and will do what they want. Like with anything.

One eyed Jack · 16-07-2019 2:23am

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The Op asked why pregnant women are "allowed" to smoke. I think it's obvious from the way it was phrased where they are coming from.

I’ll be honest, I simply took it to mean why are women permitted to smoke when they’re pregnant. The answer is really as simple as the political will just isn’t there to introduce legislation which would ban them from doing so. It would simply be seen as an over-reach by the State. We have laws already which prohibit all sorts of behaviours and affect all sorts of groups in society.

Politicians could introduce legislation if they wanted similar to the way in which the smoking ban was introduced overnight and had the immediate effect of prohibiting smoking in public buildings. They simply don’t want to introduce legislation that would prohibit women from smoking when they’re pregnant. They wouldn’t even have to actively police it any more than they don’t actively police the current smoking ban. It would simply be a matter of extending existing legislation to cover circumstances where women would be prohibited from smoking when they become pregnant.

I know you suggested pregnant women who smoke need support and all the rest of it, but what if the approach were taken with the intent of discouraging women from smoking in the first place when they become pregnant? Otherwise to be honest I don’t see the point in saying that people shouldn’t judge and they need support and all the rest of it. All that does is make smoking during pregnancy permissible, and sure women do that already, they don’t need permission to do so once they are of legal age to purchase tobacco in the first place. The hands-off, “non-judgemental” approach clearly doesn’t do anything to curb the behaviour. If the idea is to prevent women from smoking during pregnancy or to discourage women from smoking during pregnancy, then politicians would need to be a bit more proactive in the area of legislating to prohibit the behaviour.

Personally, I can’t see it happening, and frankly I’m not all that bothered by it. Smoking is one of the least things I’d be concerned about when a woman is pregnant.

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 7:33am

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

I still don't understand the objection to just having a negative opinion of it though. It's like because they're pregnant women they are above criticism, and any criticism could only be coming from a place of misogyny/wanting to control women, when it's only a criticism of a behaviour, which we all do.

I'm not looking to draw a line. Climbing stairs, driving, going out - these can be necessary. Heavy smoking or drinking isn't, eating loads of junkfood when pregnant isn't, obesity and pregnancy is a big risk.

I know nothing I write will stop it but you could say that about loads of things. It's just expressing a point of view.

If Boom Bap smoked around non smokers, particularly children, I would be critical of him, but I don't know if he did.

The reason it's an issue is not because pregnant women are "above criticism" it's because special rules are being applied to pregnant women, or would be if people could find a way to do so.

Like the poster who was outside smoking as his partner was giving birth: having a parent (either parent) who smokes is associated with a higher risk of cot death but the poster saw nothing inconsistent about him posting his anecdote about this crazy pregnant woman who was smoking during labour. Because people still have this belief that they should be able to control pregnant women's behaviour. Maybe it's a relic of the 8th amendment, or perhaps of the attitudes that led to the 8th becoming the law in the first place. Though TBF that judgmentalism is not unknown in other countries either.

nthclare · 16-07-2019 9:26am

Sardonicat wrote: »

I have never come across anyone named Gannet.

I used to go out with a lady from the more affluent part of Dublin, she's old money and they're nickname the middle class women Gannets, because herself and her friends used to go out to eat and observe the wannabe toffs.

She's quite funny, and the reason they call them Gannets is because they hang around in groups and all they do is eat, talk over each other and drink copiously....

Like a few Gannets hanging out waiting for the fishing boats to come ashore, squawking, and consuming everything thing they can.

Ironically the upper class look down on the middle class and seem to have no problems with the working class because they're both not out to prove anything..

Billy Connolly did a great sketch on slagging off the Volvo crowd...the wannabe toffs as he calls them.

Gimme A Pound · 16-07-2019 10:30am

volchitsa wrote: »

The reason it's an issue is not because pregnant women are "above criticism" it's because special rules are being applied to pregnant women, or would be if people could find a way to do so.

Like the poster who was outside smoking as his partner was giving birth: having a parent (either parent) who smokes is associated with a higher risk of cot death but the poster saw nothing inconsistent about him posting his anecdote about this crazy pregnant woman who was smoking during labour. Because people still have this belief that they should be able to control pregnant women's behaviour. Maybe it's a relic of the 8th amendment, or perhaps of the attitudes that led to the 8th becoming the law in the first place. Though TBF that judgmentalism is not unknown in other countries either.

What? No, it's just criticism of a behaviour.

People who are male, female, pregnant, not pregnant, young, old, whatever... get criticised for certain behaviours. We judge - all the time. Even people who think they don't, do.

What special rules are being applied or are wished to be applied to pregnant women? "It's horrible when pregnant women smoke heavily" - is it not? There's no control, nothing to do with the 8th amendment - just an opinion. Why is this uncalled for because she's pregnant? There can be such a cognitive dissonance about the unborn - smoking when pregnant is potentially harmful to the baby's health, but it's unreasonable to say this? Just no. There's no logic to it.

A more extreme example, but still, how the baby's health is affected: a drug addicted newborn, one of the most heart breaking things imaginable. Foetal alcohol syndrome - a life of health problems... but criticism of the mother is not anything other than wanting to control pregnant women? Rather than concern for the health of the baby. It's bizarre.

And I already mentioned Boom Bap in that very post you quoted. If he smoked around his pregnant partner or his child, I absolutely would be highly critical of him. Of anyone who smokes around non smokers, especially children. But there's no indication that he did.

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 12:14pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

What? No, it's just criticism of a behaviour.

People who are male, female, pregnant, not pregnant, young, old, whatever... get criticised for certain behaviours. We judge - all the time. Even people who think they don't, do.

What special rules are being applied or are wished to be applied to pregnant women? "It's horrible when pregnant women smoke heavily" - is it not? There's no control, nothing to do with the 8th amendment - just an opinion. Why is this uncalled for because she's pregnant? There can be such a cognitive dissonance about the unborn - smoking when pregnant is potentially harmful to the baby's health, but it's unreasonable to say this? Just no. There's no logic to it.

A more extreme example, but still, how the baby's health is affected: a drug addicted newborn, one of the most heart breaking things imaginable. Foetal alcohol syndrome - a life of health problems... but criticism of the mother is not anything other than wanting to control pregnant women? Rather than concern for the health of the baby. It's bizarre.

And I already mentioned Boom Bap in that very post you quoted. If he smoked around his pregnant partner or his child, I absolutely would be highly critical of him. Of anyone who smokes around non smokers, especially children. But there's no indication that he did.

There's no indication this woman smoked during her pregnancy either. She may have given up through the whole pregnancy, and then after being pumped full of anaesthetic gas and air or being going to have a c-section, ie morphine or equivalent, may have decided that in the circumstances a cigarette wasn't going to make any difference.

But there's an assumption that she's doing something wrong, whereas the default assumption is that Boom Bap wasn't. We're also posting in a thread by a poster who thinks women shouldn't be allowed breast feed in public, so TBH there's a context there too. It's all about controlling women's behaviour.

bingbong500 · 16-07-2019 8:50pm

joe swanson wrote: »

Why are they allowed murder their unborn babies also?

You can only murder people. You get only attain personhood at birth. These are legal definitions. Ergo, no murder involved.

So, another pointless thread. OP wonders why pregnant women are "allowed" to smoke. Doesn't provide any insight in what not "allowing" them would look like.
Come on now, be specific....test all pregnant women daily for nicotene and imprison those who test positive in new smoke free jails? Then what do we do when the baby is born, in prison?
Or what? It's a lot of bluster with no actual plan.

bingbong500 · 16-07-2019 8:54pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

What? No, it's just criticism of a behaviour.

People who are male, female, pregnant, not pregnant, young, old, whatever... get criticised for certain behaviours. We judge - all the time. Even people who think they don't, do.

What special rules are being applied or are wished to be applied to pregnant women? "It's horrible when pregnant women smoke heavily" - is it not? There's no control, nothing to do with the 8th amendment - just an opinion. Why is this uncalled for because she's pregnant? There can be such a cognitive dissonance about the unborn - smoking when pregnant is potentially harmful to the baby's health, but it's unreasonable to say this? Just no. There's no logic to it.

A more extreme example, but still, how the baby's health is affected: a drug addicted newborn, one of the most heart breaking things imaginable. Foetal alcohol syndrome - a life of health problems... but criticism of the mother is not anything other than wanting to control pregnant women? Rather than concern for the health of the baby. It's bizarre.

And I already mentioned Boom Bap in that very post you quoted. If he smoked around his pregnant partner or his child, I absolutely would be highly critical of him. Of anyone who smokes around non smokers, especially children. But there's no indication that he did.

If you can't tell the difference between "I think smoking when pregnant is a bad thing" and "I think women should not be allowed to smoke while pregnant" then no-one here can help you. But don't use words like cognitive dissonance when you don't understand them.

To be clear, thinking that smoking while pregnant is bad/appalling/abusive etc is perfectly normal. The majority of people agree. Where we do no agree is that somebody else should have any control over the women who do choose to smoke.

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 9:25pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Are you actually struggling to understand why someone would think abuse should be illegal?

What - abuse in general? Of whom? Abuse of born, ie living children? Or a pregnant woman falling short of perfection in her lifestyle, as many people do all their lives, only of course when pregnant she may potentially be causing harm to her unborn baby?

So how exactly would you make "abuse" illegal for the pregnant woman, and why would you limit it to her, when other people may be acting on her in ways which may harm the baby too?

bingbong500 · 16-07-2019 9:28pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Are you actually struggling to understand why someone would think abuse should be illegal?

Abuse? Of who? It's legal to smoke. A foetus is not a person. There is no-one to abuse in this scenario.
What do you think should be illegal? You're the one struggling here, not least to articulate your point. What do you think should happen that does not happen?

lainey_d_123 · 16-07-2019 9:36pm

Well it's moronic but how can you stop them? I suppose you could introduce severe penalties, but how would they really be enforced?

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 9:39pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Who said I'd limit it to the Mother? Smoking in a household with a child or pregnant woman should also be illegal in my view.

That's something of a minority view it seems going by this thread - there were as many posts complaining about women going to the shops in their pyjamas as there were pointing out that fathers smoking is dangerous too.

But also, why stop at smoking? You know air pollution in cities is as bad as smoking for the fetus? Air pollution as bad as smoking in increasing risk of miscarriage

Would you have parents fined or even jailed for smoking when the damage from dirty air continues unabated? What would be achieved by that?

jay1988 · 16-07-2019 9:41pm

I used to laugh at people who claimed that there was a certain section of society that want to police what women do with their own bodies, especially around the time of the abortion debate, I always thought it was blown way out of proportion.

**** me this thread has been an eye opener on that front anyway.

eviltwin · 16-07-2019 9:45pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

How can you stop a person punching someone in the face? If they want to do it they'll do it, that doesn't mean it should be legal.

What sanctions would you impose on a pregnant woman who smoked?

jay1988 · 16-07-2019 9:59pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Has it crossed your mind that some people consider the harm that's caused to the unborn?

If a woman wants to throw herself off a bridge that's her business, she's harming no one else. When the actions of an individual cause damage to another person then it becomes the business of society.

its not another person, its a fetus, thats been done to death, either way its irrelevant as its none of your or anyone else's business what any woman does with her own body, pregnant or not, it might be a **** thing to do but its the womans choice, end of story.

Bobblehats · 16-07-2019 10:05pm

When I popped out of my ould wan I wasn’t gasping for air I was gasping for a smoke

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 10:07pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Similar to what's achieved by making it illegal to punch people in the face.

It's not similar at all. For one thing, it's an addiction, and one that makes some people (but not the pregnant woman) very, very rich - so she is to some extent a victim of tobacco companies and possibly of her own parents, so where does the buck stop?

Secondly, it's not just "illegal to punch people in the face", there's a law that defines the details and the punishments you may expect to get for breaking the law. So what punishment do you think would be adequate for a pregnant wo,an who smokes? Would it be automatic or would it depend on the actual harm caused? (Which might be zero, of course - so would those lucky women get off Scot free? Meanwhile those whose babies are damaged would get a double punishment, a sick baby and a prison sentence?)

And thirdly, you've ignored the point that other forms of harm may be just as bad. Would non smoking women like me be entitled to extra compensation for a child with bronchitis possibly caused by air pollution when I was pregnant, while my neighbour who smoked gets nothing because their kid's bronchitis was her own fault?

jay1988 · 16-07-2019 10:09pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

So if someone punches you in the face is that ok, can they do whatever they want with their body?

A foetus often becomes a person, why should it be legal to take unnecessary actions which are known to cause harm to that person? The foetus had no choice, the mother in most cases had a choice so she should take some responsibility for her choices.

No of course not because they've done something to my body not their own, how hard is it to comprehend?

One eyed Jack · 16-07-2019 10:18pm

jay1988 wrote: »

its not another person, its a fetus, thats been done to death, either way its irrelevant as its none of your or anyone else's business what any woman does with her own body, pregnant or not, it might be a **** thing to do but its the womans choice, end of story.

It is y’know, and there are numerous laws regarding what people can and can’t do with their own bodies in Irish legislation, so suggesting that it’s none of anyone else’s business what any woman does with her own body? You’re very much mistaken.

That being said, absolutely of course it’s a woman’s choice if she chooses to smoke during her pregnancy, but that doesn’t preclude the possibility that legislation could be introduced that would make it unlawful for a pregnant woman to do so, nor as I suggested earlier would it even have to be actively policed (we have many restrictive laws regarding the limitations placed on what people can and can’t do with their own bodies which aren’t actively policed).

It would simply serve as a deterrent, as many of our laws regarding what people can or can’t do with their own bodies do, and any possible prosecutions would be at the discretion of the DPP. You’re acting like this would be incredibly difficult to implement, when the reality is it exists in other contexts already. This idea that it’s unfair that a law should only apply to pregnant women ignores the fact that there are many laws which apply to pregnant women specifically already, namely of course laws restricting their reproductive choices and what options are legally available to them at any particular point in their pregnancy.

A law which would prohibit pregnant women from smoking? It’s not actually as far out there as you might think. There’s just no political will to introduce such a law into Irish legislation.

volchitsa · 16-07-2019 10:20pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

I'd suggest community service should be a punishment for pregnant mothers who smoke.

So she likely has other kids: do you think there is any chance that her children will suffer more from their mother being unavailable to spend time with them because she then has to go out and do this community service? What if she says she can't, she has no childminder or can't afford to pay one - prison?
Who loses there?

Amd what if the baby is actually perfectly healthy?

And why only punish the parents? What about air pollution? That causes harm. Should it be made illegal?

Gimme A Pound · 16-07-2019 11:46pm

What's this disingenuous stuff about pollution? You have to go outside - you don't have to smoke.

volchitsa wrote: »

There's no indication this woman smoked during her pregnancy either. She may have given up through the whole pregnancy, and then after being pumped full of anaesthetic gas and air or being going to have a c-section, ie morphine or equivalent, may have decided that in the circumstances a cigarette wasn't going to make any difference.

But there's an assumption that she's doing something wrong, whereas the default assumption is that Boom Bap wasn't.

She was smoking when pregnant/in labour.

That's all that Boom Bap referred to, and that is doing something wrong. If Boom Bap was blowing smoke into her face, then yes, he was doing something wrong. That's all that I referred to. It's horrible - and that's merely expressing a point of view, nothing more (and what's the point in "maybe this, maybe that" - none of us have a clue, except for knowing that she was smoking when in labour; maybe she did give up for ages, and maybe she smoked heavily). She can smoke away while pregnant. I'm not stopping her and it's not something that could ever be enforced. But please explain to me what is wrong with just being critical of the behaviour, otherwise it absolutely looks like viewing pregnant women as above criticism.

bingbong500 wrote: »

If you can't tell the difference between "I think smoking when pregnant is a bad thing" and "I think women should not be allowed to smoke while pregnant" then no-one here can help you. But don't use words like cognitive dissonance when you don't understand them.

Where did I indicate not understanding what "cognitive dissonance" means?
Don't be patronising. There absolutely are people objecting to mere criticism of women smoking heavily when pregnant, and trying to come up with all sorts of ways to make excuses/downplay it (and huge fans of the "judgemental" word, as if they've never judged anyone). And don't mind the OP, who's just on a wind-up. "They shouldn't be allowed" just means it's awful. People know it can't be policed. Although I've heard of measures against parents smoking in the car with children. No prob myself. If it's a pregnant mother though, suddenly it's misogyny. Although I cannot see how smoking in the car can be policed either.

And nonsense like "it's only a foetus" - after a certain point, no it isn't. And "it's her body" - after a certain point, no it's not just her body. I voted in favour of the 8th amendment because I believe early stage abortion should be available but I don't get why these things are denied.

A rare cigarette or drink I completely understand, but heavy smoking/drinking with no attempt to quit or cut down is just sh1tty.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 17-07-2019 7:41am

Because as disgusting and selfish as it may be, a woman’s body is her own.

volchitsa · 17-07-2019 7:53am

Redsky121 wrote: »

I think the poster you are replying to subscribes to the ideology that women are always the victims, so they are beyond criticism, it's always someone else's fault, be it the tobacco company, pollution or the patriarchy.

Ah I love the smell of ad hominem in the morning.

HappyAsLarE · 17-07-2019 8:34am

Fcuk that legalising abortion and then pretending to give s fcuk about unborn children.

Gimme A Pound · 17-07-2019 10:36am

Adriel Yummy Sorrow wrote: »

Because as disgusting and selfish as it may be, a woman’s body is her own.

Why do people think this line is a good argument? After a certain point, no it isn't just her body.

...Ghost... · 17-07-2019 7:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Their bodies. Their choice.

I find those words to be the equivalent of foot stomping and saying "because".

If you saw a man sitting on a bench with his son, blowing cigarette smoke into his face after every drag.....would you hold the view that it's his body and his choice?

It's perfectly legal to smoke in public around children.

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 9:09pm

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Why do people think this line is a good argument? After a certain point, no it isn't just her body.

It's the only argument, and it is ALWAYS her body, her choice. NOTHING changes that.

It's a fact, in LAW. Your opinion is irrelevant. Thank ****!!

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 9:11pm

...Ghost... wrote: »

I find those words to be the equivalent of foot stomping and saying "because".

If you saw a man sitting on a bench with his son, blowing cigarette smoke into his face after every drag.....would you hold the view that it's his body and his choice?

It's perfectly legal to smoke in public around children.

Yup, you got really confused there didn't you? The mans body is his body, the boys body is his. There are two born human people there with personhood and legal rights.
With a pregnant woman: one person, one body, one legal human.

You see? 1 is not the same as 2. Is that simple enough for you?

riclad · 17-07-2019 9:28pm

How would it be stopped, some women are overweight , they might look pregnant .
The gardai have enough things to do apart from looking for people smoking cigarettes .
It may be a matter of if its legal to buy a product you cant really arrest an adult for buying it .it would be a restriction on personal freedom of choice and human rights .
remember in the 70s an adult could not even buy condoms or the pill
in ireland .

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 9:29pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

Do you think it's perfectly ok for a mother to knowingly take actions that are likely to deform her child?

No. Personally I don't. But since its her body and not mine, my opinion is, like yours, irrelavant.

Why can you not understand that you can dislike the things people do while still asserting they have every right to do it?

AryaStark · 17-07-2019 9:36pm

xzanti wrote: »

Personally it turns my stomach to see it.

I've heard it said however that the stress of not smoking for the mother could be just as hazardous for the baby as actually smoking.

Who knows.

This is not true... the harm of smoking on the baby is huge.

It is hard to stop smoking... some mums are lucky to feel so sick from the smell of smoke and have to stop. I guess their body is protecting the baby. It is a very selfish thing to do.

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 9:37pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned people can do what they want so long as don't harm other people, they can jump off a cliff if they want because they're only harming themselves. But a pregnant woman has the potential to also harm another person. The unborn child grows into an adult, that adult can be harmed through the actions of the pregnant Mother.

At the time she is pregnant, it is not another person. You need to grasp the fundamental fact.

Also, you haven't explained how you think women should be stopped from smoking while pregnant. Please tell us all your plan.

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 9:51pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

The unborn child becomes a person, are you able to grasp that fact? Are you able to grasp the fact that smoking, taking drugs or alcohol could potentially cause serious harm to a human being?

Since when is it ok to knowingly take actions that could seriously harm another person?

Is it ok to put poison on the swing in an empty playground, after all the swing isn't a person? Obviously it's not ok because it has the potential to cause serious harm to a human being.

At the time of the action the future possible person is not a person. Do you understand that?

Still waiting for your plan.....all talk and no action, right?

bingbong500 · 17-07-2019 10:07pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

At the time of action the poison is only put on a swing, not a person, therefore it's perfectly fine.

I already explained it should be illegal.

And how would that work, it being illegal? How do you know who is pregnant, and how do you know who is smoking? And what do you do with them once caught, what is the punishment?

"it should be illegal" is the kind of answer I expect from my 6 year old. Details, dude....

ceadaoin. · 17-07-2019 10:52pm

Redsky121 wrote: »

The unborn child becomes a person, are you able to grasp that fact? Are you able to grasp the fact that smoking, taking drugs or alcohol could potentially cause serious harm to a human being?

Since when is it ok to knowingly take actions that could seriously harm another person?

Traffic accidents cause more foetal deaths and injuries than any of those things. Should women be banned from using vehicles also? I mean, where do you draw the line on how many restrictions should be placed on pregnant women? No one seems to be able to answer this.

How would it be policed? Any woman who looks like they might be pregnant and is seen smoking being investigated? Maybe any woman of childbearing age, just in case like?

Why are women allowed to smoke while pregnant?

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