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30km/h planned for main roads in Dublin City Council area (not all main roads)

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    #122
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    For my part, I only quote international evidence to put such claims into context.
    and i post international evidence so as to place *those* claims into context, so we're two sides of the same page.


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    #123
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,218 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    donvito99 wrote: »
    It's already illegal to cycle on the footpath.

    If the Guards devoted resources to ticketing people cycling on the footpath, that's less resources devoted to things that actually impair safety on the roads.

    Also, a 30kph speed limit is much easier to do than "preventing" cycling on the footpath. Don't know what you're getting at there.

    If the guards merely screamed at people cycling on the footpaths then I think it would have a better effect. As with speeding cars in built up areas, red light jumping etc, the greatest impediment is an inability to people stop acting like dicks combined with a reticence to call out bad behaviour in front of you.


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    #124
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    cameras to identify people breaking red lights for instance, not only cyclists
    that's a very weird clarification.


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    #125
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,218 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Alias G wrote: »
    I love how you can casually dismiss 150 annual deaths as a perfectly acceptable level of attrition. Multiple that figure by the number of families and close personal acquaintances directly impacted for a better understanding of the level of grief and despair visited upon fellow Irish citizens every year. Being best in class in one statistic should not preclude continuing efforts to improve safety on our roads. If it did, we wouldn't remain best in class for long.
    Nor should it preclude making our urban centres more pleasant places to visit and navigate. But a modal shift from cars to walking, cycling and public transport will help acomplish that objective. No one is going to hold a gun to your head and demand that you no longer use your car. But it is only fair and reasonable that we begin to design our infrastructure to safely share the streetscape with those who wish to avail of greener and more efficient modes of transport.

    And 20 years ago it was over 400 with historically higher numbers in earlier decades with many fewer cars. Each death is a tragedy but, to some extent, there will always be some. A continued focus on bringing the fatality rate down is important but all the easy gains have already been made. It will not drop to zero and, I suspect, it will never drop below 100.


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    #126
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    there are multiple reasons why the fatality rate has dropped. cars are much much safer (for the occupants mainly); drink driving is far less common than it used to be; and the numbers cycling and walking have also plummeted.


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    #127
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Are you sure that the numbers of people walking have plummeted? Maybe cycling, but (at least pre-pandemic) Dublin and other cities/towns had plenty of people walking about, as far as I could see.


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    #128
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    anyway, i'd agree in general with what a lot of people are saying here; there should be more focus on actually policing the laws we have before we introduce new ones, otherwise the new laws are just tokenistic.


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    #129
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    Are you sure that the numbers of people walking have plummeted? Maybe cycling, but (at least pre-pandemic) Dublin and other cities/towns had plenty of people walking about, as far as I could see.
    i'm not; but i was thinking of the same context of schools; when i was in primary school (in the 80s admittedly, suburban dublin) it was exceptionally rare that someone would arrive to school in a car. now the figure is over 60% nationally.


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    #130
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,843 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Owen Keegan has conceded under questioning by Councillors, that having the City Council promote the Loving 30 campaign, as well as being the local authority to hold a notionally impartial consultation on the reduction of the default limit to 30 km/h, is a conflict of interest and incompatible. He indicates be may have to scrap the current consultation process.

    Personally, I think he is throwing his own officials under the bus, as he knows what way the wind is blowing and cannot afford to loose a second Council vote on the matter is less than 12 months.

    Most likely the end of this nonsense and not before time.


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    #131
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Owen Keegan has conceded under questioning by Councillors, that having the City Council promote the Loving 30 campaign, as well as being the local authority to hold a notionally impartial consultation on the reduction of the default limit to 30 km/h, is a conflict of interest and incompatible. He indicates be may have to scrap the current consultation process.

    Personally, I think he is throwing his own officials under the bus, as he knows what way the wind is blowing and cannot afford to loose a second Council vote on the matter is less than 12 months.

    Most likely the end of this nonsense and not before time.

    Consultation is non-statutory. So is the current process.

    The final vote is in October. Which would actually be 13 months since the last vote. Which was not "lost" because it was never voted on.


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    #132
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,843 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Semantics.

    Its the politics of this that matters.


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    #133
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Semantics.

    Ah the truth, it can be so annoying


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    #134
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Semantics.

    Its the politics of this that matters.

    The politics of it is that only like five councillors are opposing this proposal completely and want to see it scrapped like you say. The same dinosaurs as last time. The rest are either supportive or looking for changes. They may not support 100% of it but they're not looking for an "end of this nonsense" like you say.


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    #135
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    the current average speed to get from the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is not 50km/h, and not even 30km/h.

    it's 13km/h.
    based on google maps current calculations.

    google maps shows the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is 4km. It also says the travel time is between 7mins - 26mins. average time being 16.5 mins. That would also mean that the average travel speed would be 14.54km/h. just saying :D


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    #136
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm surprised it's that's fast. Phibsboro at peak is no joke.


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    #137
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    SeeMoreBut wrote: »
    Will cyclists be stopped when breaking 30 kph also as that speed is easily achievable for lot a cyclists

    Although a bicycle is defined as a vehicle in legislation a cyclist is not governed by the speed limit on the road. Unfortunate but the argument being that a bicycle would cause considerably less damage/harm when traveling at a higher speed.


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    #138
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    there are multiple reasons why the fatality rate has dropped. cars are much much safer (for the occupants mainly); drink driving is far less common than it used to be; and the numbers cycling and walking have also plummeted.

    In addition to that the number of privately owned vehicles has increased over the last 20/30 years yet the number of fatalities have dropped...if you follow the timelines of when the seatbelt campaigns and drink driving campaigns were held after the implementation of penalty points there is a serious positive result. Just shows that enforcement and awareness works.


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    #139
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    If you don't want to be hit by a car don't walk in front of one.

    Wrapping the world in cotton wool this is. Ludicrous waste of everyone's time.

    30km/h HAS a place on narrow, urban streets. Not the quays, or even sub-arterial routes. But even then, surely it's better to pedestrianise swathes of streets so that pedestrians will actually use them (and put tables outside pubs and resteraunts) than use this absolute joke to shoot fish in barrels. But of course Brown Thomas couldn't have that.

    It'd be easy to say this is all about money, but in actual fact it's much worse: literal clowns running the show. As for Keegan.. isn't it about time he was put out to pasture?


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    #140
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Genuine question, Roadhawk, have you read the proposal?
    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Eh yes, i have since become a key stakeholder in the loving 30 campaign just to have a position of understanding.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0421/1211193-dublin-speed-limit-campaign/

    Round one...more to come. ;)


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    #141
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,281 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Owen Keegan has conceded under questioning by Councillors, that having the City Council promote the Loving 30 campaign, as well as being the local authority to hold a notionally impartial consultation on the reduction of the default limit to 30 km/h, is a conflict of interest and incompatible. He indicates be may have to scrap the current consultation process.

    The consultation isn't impartial even, regardless of whether you approve or not of the proposal. The wording of the online consultation form is deliberately designed to influence your choice.
    If you agree with the proposal you just tick a box.
    If you disagree you have to justify your negative.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #142
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    google maps shows the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is 4km. It also says the travel time is between 7mins - 26mins. average time being 16.5 mins. That would also mean that the average travel speed would be 14.54km/h. just saying :D
    Yes, their estimate changes based on traffic levels.


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    #143
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 28,281 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i'm not; but i was thinking of the same context of schools; when i was in primary school (in the 80s admittedly, suburban dublin) it was exceptionally rare that someone would arrive to school in a car. now the figure is over 60% nationally.

    Yes but how much is that is because of road safety fears versus...
    A lot less people had cars in 1980s suburban Dublin, two car homes even rarer.
    There were more households where one parent was still at home, and would walk the kids to school, or grandparents\family member around the corner would do this.
    There were larger households with older siblings who would bring younger siblings to adjacent schools.
    Now if you have two parents working the dropoff to school on the way to work is more common.
    People were living at shorter distances from the school and their close relations.
    Concerns about 'child' abductions became prevalent.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #144
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    People are choosing where they live based on if what they need is with in driving distance hence it's creating a reliance on the car.

    Schools have changed their enrollment policies to give less priority to length of residency in the catchment. This is to create diversity in the schools. This has the effect of positive discrimination. But also that it facilitates people who don't live close to the school getting places in the school. Requiring kids to be driven to school. But also local kids not getting into the local school and have to driven out to a school somewhere else.


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    #145
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,502 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Yes but how much is that is because of road safety fears versus...
    a lot; as a result of the same factors you mention. i agree with pretty much all you post there, but i'd argue that they're all interlinked. yes, many more people started driving their kids to school for those reasons, but it also resulted in a massive increase in traffic on the roads and it becomes a feedback cycle.


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    #146
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm often surprised when some people kids schools are nowhere near where they live. Then I realize its either near where they work, or its on their commute.
    They do stuff like give someone else address or rent temporarily in the area, get the kids into the school, then move away.

    That said my parents did the same to me. I went to school halfway across the city. Used to get dropped in the morning, bus home.
    But in general I got the bus too and from school, and it was two bus journeys away. Or a 30 minute walk and a bus journey. I thought it was pointless back then too.


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    #147
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0421/1211193-dublin-speed-limit-campaign/

    Round one...more to come. ;)

    What does that have to do with you not understanding the proposals? You're not Owen Keegan, John Kilraine, Damian O'Farrell or Mannix Flynn.

    You were presenting a scenario of someone driving 400km in Dublin city in a day at 50km/h for 8 hours. Even Mannix Flynn understands how silly that is.


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    #148
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    sdanseo wrote: »
    If you don't want to be hit by a car don't walk in front of one.

    What a vile comment.

    You actually think that all pedestrians injured or killed by motorists are to blame? :rolleyes:

    There's a foot bridge in the car park of my local train station and it has a protective defence around it. I wonder why that is. To stop cyclists crashing in to it and damaging the bridge? To stop pedestrians walking into it? Any thoughts?


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    #149
    vandriver
    Registered Users Posts: 3,460 ✭✭✭vandriver


    Are there any statistics for the level of road deaths in the DCC area per year?
    I've looked,and can only find the Dublin level of about 20 a year.
    If DCC aren't publicising it,I might suppose that it's very low,and wouldn't suit their narrative,specially when they only ascribe 40% of deaths to excessive speed.


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    #150
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭markpb


    vandriver wrote: »
    Are there any statistics for the level of road deaths in the DCC area per year?
    I've looked,and can only find the Dublin level of about 20 a year.
    If DCC aren't publicising it,I might suppose that it's very low,and wouldn't suit their narrative,specially when they only ascribe 40% of deaths to excessive speed.

    There are plenty of reasons to support a 30kph limit other than road deaths. Death is probably the biggest inconvenience when being hit by a car but there's also air and noise pollution which drop considerably at lower speeds. Lower speeds make roads feel safer so people are more likely to walk or cycle instead of driving. Lower speeds make drivers more involved in their surroundings. At 50kph, the car is king and everyone else has to work around it. At 30kph, pedestrians can more easily cross the road, cyclists can more easily merge into traffic to get around parked cars, drivers are more likely to acknowledge other road users and slow down or stop for them. There's a subtle but powerful psychological impact.


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    #151
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    vandriver wrote: »
    Are there any statistics for the level of road deaths in the DCC area per year?
    I've looked,and can only find the Dublin level of about 20 a year.
    If DCC aren't publicising it,I might suppose that it's very low,and wouldn't suit their narrative,specially when they only ascribe 40% of deaths to excessive speed.

    Is 40% not enough. Seems a massive percentage.


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