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30km/h planned for main roads in Dublin City Council area (not all main roads)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Done. Fully support the default 30kph. It's the least we could do. Hopefully enforcement and design changes will follow. Thanks for the heads up.

    Yeah, his cycling agenda is just not good enough these days. I'm coming around to the idea that Owen Keegan, Brendan O'Brien et al. need to go. We need more ambitious people in charge committed to reshaping the city, making it liveable and undoing the decades of damage done to its fabric by motor car dominance. We need people like Robert Burns.

    It always amazes me the suggestion that Owen Keegan has a cycling agenda. The whole place is given over to traffic, only token infrastructure installed.

    The usual taxi driver nonsense is what it is.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    donvito99 wrote: »
    It always amazes me the suggestion that Owen Keegan has a cycling agenda. The whole place is given over to traffic, only token infrastructure installed.

    The usual taxi driver nonsense is what it is.

    2013: Owen Keegan becomes CEO of Dublin City Council

    2016:
    Photo captures scary reality of Dublin cycling (and story behind it) https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/photo-captures-scary-reality-of-dublin-cycling-and-story-behind-it/

    2017:
    'A lot of people will not get on bikes because they think it's dangerous. We need segregated routes' https://www.thejournal.ie/cycling-dangerous-dublin-3433128-Jun2017/
    Cycling can be “scary and hazardous” in Dublin, Trinity researchers find https://trinitynews.ie/2017/06/cycling-can-be-scary-and-hazardous-in-dublin-trinity-researchers-find/

    2018:
    Cycling in Ireland: Female cyclists don’t feel safe on our roads https://greennews.ie/female-cyclists-dont-feel-safe-roads/

    2019:
    Actor Simon Delaney says cycling around Dublin for new RTE show frightened the 'bejaysus' out of him https://www.irishmirror.ie/tv/actor-simon-delaney-says-cycling-14046900
    Foreign visitors shocked at conditions for cycling in Dublin https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/foreign-visitors-cycling-facilities-dublin/
    Cycling in Dublin: ‘We’ve lost our way with private cars’ https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/cycling-in-dublin-we-ve-lost-our-way-with-private-cars-1.3937975
    Dublin disappoints: what happened to city cycling's great hope?https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jun/25/dublin-disappoints-what-happened-to-city-cyclings-great-hope

    2020:
    'Frustrated, worried, stressed and anxious': The worst places in Ireland to be a cyclist https://www.thejournal.ie/part-one-bicycle-blackspots-ireland-5081804-Apr2020/
    Opinion: Cycling to work shouldn't feel like going to war but I still get flashbacks from being hit by car https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/cycling-dublin-collison-cycling-networks-5002215-Feb2020/
    ‘It’s survival of the fittest’: Dublin Cycling Campaign urges safety measures https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/it-s-survival-of-the-fittest-dublin-cycling-campaign-urges-safety-measures-1.4151933

    Angry motorists on boards.ie: Owen Keegan's cycling agenda something something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Cyclist and motorist here. I wouldn't vote for it.

    Tediously slow speed limit to have across the city. I have actually missed 50 - 30 km/h speed limit changes in parts of the city with a number of more important distractions to deal with. Very easy to rack up points in this day & age.

    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times. Otherwise, drawing the line at 50km/h I would deem appropriate.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I have actually missed 50 - 30 km/h speed limit changes in parts of the city with a number of more important distractions to deal with. Very easy to rack up points in this day & age.

    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times.
    your second statement seems to run contrary to your first. you find geographically fixed speed limits confusing, but time adapted ones not?

    anyway, sticking with your first point, surely a default of 30km/h would thus make life easier? you assume 30km/h unless you know otherwise. less taxing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    your second statement seems to run contrary to your first. you find geographically fixed speed limits confusing, but time adapted ones not?

    anyway, sticking with your first point, surely a default of 30km/h would thus make life easier? you assume 30km/h unless you know otherwise. less taxing.

    In the USA, the school signs were very noticeable. They had flashing lights on the signs to notify motorists when the lower limit was in place during school drop off / pick up. Seemed to work well.

    It looks like the plan is to have the 30km/h limits on alot of roads, but not all. Driving at 30 km/h I find very tedious when traffic is light.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I like the USA model of lower speed limits near schools at certain times. Otherwise, drawing the line at 50km/h I would deem appropriate.

    I'm not sure the USA is a model to promote for anything planning related unless you are a car manufacturer


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,186 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    DaCor wrote: »
    I'm not sure the USA is a model to promote for anything planning related unless you are a car manufacturer

    I would see that as a generalization. I lived there twice & for all its flaws it gets some things right & I saw this as one of them. The rules around school buses is to be commended too, i.e. traffic on both sides must stop when a school bus stops to allow kids off. Their safety rules around schools & traffic are decent. Gun laws less so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Andrewf20 wrote: »
    I would see that as a generalization. I lived there twice & for all its flaws it gets some things right & I saw this as one of them. The rules around school buses is to be commended too, i.e. traffic on both sides must stop when a school bus stops to allow kids off. Their safety rules around schools & traffic are decent. Gun laws less so.

    They generally enforce their rules, we don't.

    People mostly ignore the limits here because the chance of being caught are tiny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    There is a serious lack of consideration for private motorists gone into this agenda but I guess that is the point. Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city. The current infrastructure and issues with urban sprawl in Dublin does not support a 30km limit. recent changes have been a direct reaction to covid 19 and its effect to transport. We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again. There are some great minds involved in the 30km project but there has been a "shoot from the hip" approach overall and people involved are now taking advantage of a very permanent solution for a temporary issue. Its as if they are trying to make a name for themselves. Dublin's case is being compared with Paris, London, Brussels, Helsinki or Bilbao all of which have extensive affordable public transport including multiple underground metro lines. Dublin is not ready for a 30km limit on arterial roads. Residential estates and schools access absolutely yes but nowhere else at the moment. The media have focused on highlighting the safety benefits of the 30km limit but even with the limit rolled out in many areas across Dublin there has been an increase in road deaths year on year since 2018. The limit does not save lives. Despite these callouts the 30km limit will still be implemented to the advantage of some road users and detriment of others. The momentum from lobbyists and the media on this topic is far too strong at this stage.
    Mark my words that this will turn out to be a mess once normality returns.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,200 ✭✭✭markpb


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again.

    Changing to a 30km/h limit is part of re-imagining the city. For a very long time, Dublin focused on getting commuters in cars in and out of the city. It didn't focus on people driving between suburbs, on anyone commuting in ways other than driving and it absolutely didn't focus on anyone who wasn't commuting. That left us with poor footpaths, poor cycle lanes, an awkward city to drive around internally, massive congestion on the M50, air pollution above EU/EPA limits in various places, no public areas in the city's villages, no place to sit and relax outside and a whole host of other problems.

    The last year has shown us what can be done when the focus moves away from commuters and less on drivers. Dundrum, Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire are genuinely nice places to be right now. The quays are becoming a much nicer place for both commuter pedestrians and cyclists but also people just living and moving around the city.

    The 30km/h limit is a small part on that. Other than being understandably frustrating, it will have little or no actual impact on drivers, especially not commuters who are stuck in traffic anyway. But it will make it more pleasant for everyone else, it will make walking and cycling more attractive and it will reduce air pollution.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city.
    the notion of being able to hit 50km/h as a matter of course in the city is kinda funny.
    if you've to drive 10km, at 50km/h all the way, the difference between that and 30km/h is eight minutes. that's a theoretical maximum difference the change would make; as mentioned, it's calculated on the basis that you won't have to drop below 50km/h at any point. you'll spend significant amounts of the journey at the same speed in reality, regardless of speed limit.
    i'd stick a finger in the air and hazard a guess at it adding 4 minutes to a 10km journey (and in general, DCC is not much further across than 10 or 12km i suspect).
    and some of the trunk roads you'd be using crossing dublin in that way would remain at 50km/h anyway.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    There is a serious lack of consideration for private motorists gone into this agenda but I guess that is the point. Its not a case of leaving earlier for one trip its a case of leaving earlier for every trip. There is not enough time in the day to be crawling down the road while trying to navigate the city. The current infrastructure and issues with urban sprawl in Dublin does not support a 30km limit. recent changes have been a direct reaction to covid 19 and its effect to transport. We really need to ask ourselves what will the roads look like once the covid has passed and people need to travel in and out of work and around the city again. There are some great minds involved in the 30km project but there has been a "shoot from the hip" approach overall and people involved are now taking advantage of a very permanent solution for a temporary issue. Its as if they are trying to make a name for themselves. Dublin's case is being compared with Paris, London, Brussels, Helsinki or Bilbao all of which have extensive affordable public transport including multiple underground metro lines. Dublin is not ready for a 30km limit on arterial roads. Residential estates and schools access absolutely yes but nowhere else at the moment. The media have focused on highlighting the safety benefits of the 30km limit but even with the limit rolled out in many areas across Dublin there has been an increase in road deaths year on year since 2018. The limit does not save lives. Despite these callouts the 30km limit will still be implemented to the advantage of some road users and detriment of others. The momentum from lobbyists and the media on this topic is far too strong at this stage.
    Mark my words that this will turn out to be a mess once normality returns.
    Genuine question, Roadhawk, have you read the proposal? Because you didn't last time and were making nonsense claims about your journey time doubling.

    Like, do you understand which roads are proposed to be 30kph?

    Like I said last time, the imaginary 45 minute 50kph journey that you described would bring you from one end of the DCC area to the other end three times. Can we talk about any changes to actual journey times as opposed to made up journeys?


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Its not funny at all. for most involved in this movement the kick is about being part of achieving something...mot fully undertstanding the effectis it might have on some peoples livelihoods. I travel around the the greater Dublin area every day for work and can assure that there are plenty of road that are proposed to be changed to 30km where even 50km is too slow already. Some of the roads on the north side being Verona Avenue, Clonshough Road, Swords Road Fairview, fassaugh ave/rd, cabra road, the navan road, drumcondra road, the north circular??? These need to be 50km.

    Your math is good but again only if all variables are constant. If that were the case my line of work for example requiring roughly 15 -20 journeys per day would mean that i would see a 40% increase to my travel time as 30km is 60% of 50km. If i was soley traveling for work a 40% increase for my day would mean working 11.2 hrs instead of 8hrs. Constants are not the way to prove or disprove this 30km limit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    Eh yes, i have since become a key stakeholder in the loving 30 campaign just to have a position of understanding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭tommybrees


    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.

    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    tommybrees wrote: »
    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.

    Correct

    Using the carrot and stick to enable modal shift to more sustainable options


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    tommybrees wrote: »
    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.

    Between the cost of cars, insurance, tax, fuel and the threat of penalty points putting you off the road for doing 36km in a 30km zone would make ya think twice about having a car these days.

    Well it won't because they won't enforce it consistently. So the odd person will be hammered but it will have no effect on speeding overall.

    I wish they would police the bad driving we all see daily. Rather than these Tokenism zones.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    tommybrees wrote: »
    All a 30km speed limit will do is fill the pockets of the speed camera vans and state coffers.
    Except..

    "AGS are not enforcing the current 30kph speed limit"

    Your conspiracy theory borne out of some false victimhood would have more merit if they were bothered to enforce it in the first place.

    https://twitter.com/naoiseomuiri/status/1301527614088269824?s=20


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    the north circular??? These need to be 50km.
    the current average speed to get from the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is not 50km/h, and not even 30km/h.

    it's 13km/h.
    based on google maps current calculations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    DaCor wrote: »
    Correct

    Using the carrot and stick to enable modal shift to more sustainable options

    They won't enforce the stick and even if they did, there's so many other barriers that prevent people from shifting.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Constants are not the way to prove or disprove this 30km limit.
    this is true, but not in the way which suits the 'keep the 50 limit' argument.

    the council really are missing a beat by not getting a few cars to drive around the city for a day, a couple of them limited to 30km/h and actually demonstrating the effect on journey times using GPS tracking.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    beauf wrote: »
    I wish they would police the bad driving we all see daily.
    yep, but the various agencies don't seem to want to talk to each other.
    the gardai explicitly stated it wasn't their job to police the bus lane layout change on bachelor's walk when it changed a few years ago.

    if the council can't actually police the situation, maybe their main avenue to deal with the issue are campaigns like this, which they *do* have control over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the current average speed to get from the phoenix park to the five lamps on the north circular is not 50km/h, and not even 30km/h.

    it's 13km/h.
    based on google maps current calculations.

    That's because it's dragging you down the busy north circular. Which has lots of busy lights and slow junctions. You can do this route a lot quicker by avoiding that route. I beat google's time on this route regularly. I can pretty much match my cycle time.

    Though it's a lot nicer to cycle it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,851 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    beauf wrote: »
    That's because it's dragging you down the busy north circular.
    exactly - because Roadhawk explicitly mentioned the north circular; with multiple exclamation marks which i took to mean amazement at the idea of the north circular being traversed at less than 50km/h.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    yep, but the various agencies don't seem to want to talk to each other.
    the gardai explicitly stated it wasn't their job to police the bus lane layout change on bachelor's walk when it changed a few years ago.

    if the council can't actually police the situation, maybe their main avenue to deal with the issue are campaigns like this, which they *do* have control over.

    Unfortunately they've been also been dire at promoting alternative modes of transport. You'd have to say based on their actions they are pro car and anti everything else.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    Your math is good but again only if all variables are constant. If that were the case my line of work for example requiring roughly 15 -20 journeys per day would mean that i would see a 40% increase to my travel time as 30km is 60% of 50km. If i was soley traveling for work a 40% increase for my day would mean working 11.2 hrs instead of 8hrs. Constants are not the way to prove or disprove this 30km limit.
    You're the one using a constant 50kph for 8 hours scenario.

    I'm sorry but your maths is just terrible and its weakening your own argument. That's not how percentages work. 30kph is indeed 60% of 50kph but 50kph is 66.7% more than 30kph. In your unrealistic Play Station car journey, it would actually take 66.7% more than 8hrs which is 13.3 hours not 40% more more which is 11.2 hours.

    But that journey is completely unrealistic. Who drives at 50kph for 8 hours? Or even for 2 mins straight in Dublin city? Because of traffic lights, roundabouts, speed bumps, slowing down to turn, slowing down for turning cars, cars will do 0-40 kph most of the time. How can someone who drives for 8 hours a day not understand that? This is slightly different on some of the arterial roads outside the canals but these roads are mostly staying at 50kph, 60kph and 80kph or are in DLRCC, SDCC or FCC and will remain untouched.

    There's nothing particularly wrong with not understanding the proposals or getting calculations wrong but you will excuse me if I don't pay much attention to arguments posted on the internet based on unrealistic journeys and incorrect calculations.

    If you have an actual realistic journey to discuss, we can do that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭SeanW


    DaCor wrote: »
    Correct

    Using the carrot and stick to enable modal shift to more sustainable options
    So you agree, it has nothing to do with road safety? Just purely punitive?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,358 ✭✭✭Inviere


    The lunatics are truly running the asylum these days.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,200 ✭✭✭markpb


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    If that were the case my line of work for example requiring roughly 15 -20 journeys per day would mean that i would see a 40% increase to my travel time as 30km is 60% of 50km.

    Your assumptions are terribly wrong. If you believe them, I’m not surprised that you’re against it. No one gets to drive at a constant 50kph because traffic lights, traffic queues, congestion, people pulling into and out of parking spaces and getting stuck behind buses at bus stops are actually a thing. Even a taxi in bus lanes at 2am won’t average anywhere near 50kph through the city centre.

    Now that we know your average speed is much lower than 50kph, a maximum speed of 30kph will have a much smaller affect, far below the questionable 40% that you came up with.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    SeanW wrote: »
    So you agree, it has nothing to do with road safety? Just purely punitive?

    Please review my post again and highlight where anything you just said, applies


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