Dart+ — no Ballyfermot station and why not just four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel

monument wrote: »

Dublin Inquirer has a story covering the issue of no no Ballyfermot station in the Dart+ plan: https://dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/a-planned-dart-line-may-pass-through-ballyfermot-without-stopping

That got me thinking: why not four-track to the Phoenix Park tunnel?

Is there actually a whole lot in the way? It doesn’t seem so to me. I mean it would not be cheap, but it looks far from impossible.

The original (1990s) Cherry Orchard station was further East. It was never well used and having open access to the line there was a constant source of vandalism, trespass and ASB from the locals.

Would a station closer to Ballyfermot be more used now there are trains through to Connolly/Pearse? Yes. Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

There is just about space for Quad tracking but it would be a considerable amount of work. The current cutting from Inchicore to Heuston is 3 track but doesn't have space for a 4th without digging out the bank on the north side. I expect it would have to be re-engineered to have a structural retaining wall.

It is unlikely it could be done without major disruption to the railway and possibly also to the N4.

The access line to Inchicore would be needed for running so major changes to the layout there would be needed.

There are also 4 or 5 overbridges on that section, unlikely anything short of replacement would give the required clearance.

A station at Kylemore road would be useful with direct trains to the city rather than Heuston but the space there for both 4 tracking and a station (even just a single Island serving the PPT lines) looks very tight. It would need to be manned with security during opening hours and well barricaded to prevent access at night as well.

L1011 wrote: »

Well, there's no overtaking need between the main lines and the PPT, so it wouldn't have any regular use if any use.

There is no doubt that completely separating local and fast traffic all the way from Heuston and Islandbridge Jn out as far as possible would be very beneficial, as always it comes down to money and will.

I wouldn’t agree that a station in a vandalism prone area would necessarily have to be staffed, just that it be secured. The way to do that would be to put a building there, not a halt. Access to the station would be via building entrances, not gates and fences, so that when the building is closed, so is the station. Would that cost a sum of money, sure, but then you put State agency and Dublin civic facilities in as building tenants above the station level, with space for small commercial spaces along the main level/concourse.

Unfortunately the way that the residential and commercial uses encroach on the line means some expropriation is going to be required whether it is at Kylemore Road, Le Fanu Road, or to extend Cherry Orchard Drive across to Lavery Avenue to take some load.

One of the biggest impediments to four tracking through that area is IE itself, given that the Inchicore Complex massively severs the two sides of the tracks - there is a full mile between the Sarsfield Road and Kylemore Avenue bridges, which makes changes to/closure of the latter and the Le Fanu crossing even more severe on the local areas.

Is the vandalism issue worse than at Broombridge?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

IE have installed two ticket machines at B Bridge now.
___

The correct decision not to have a station at Ballyfermot, not needed and the level of potential passengers isn't there at this time.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

Is there any people living in those houses or do we not care how they get from A-B?

Kishoge has nobody in it and Adamstown had no one in it but we still built stations.

Localised density is only one consideration that should go into the CBA of any project, but let's not forget that the primary reason for these projects is to move people, and Ballyfermot has them.

The fact that the bridge HAS TO be rebuilt anyway increases the the "no-brainer" factor to include a station.

Having access from Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road opens even more opportunity to the west as well.

---

Incidentally, a Kylemore Station instantly increases the development potential of the likes of the Westlink Ind Est and other low-density units nearby.

---

Density never stopped us from improving links to our more salubrious suburbs in the past. Funny how it becomes an issue now.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Ballyfermot is actually low density - 1940s semis with large green areas.

So is the entire flippin' DART line!

Vic_08 wrote: »

Would there still be a massive issue with vandalism in that area? Yes.

I would actually dispute that. There's little to no vandalism in that area. The most unpleasant thing around there is all the traffic on Kylemore Road.

For reference:

https://goo.gl/maps/H3HvSWUteD7Tx3QQA

Spotless!

Maybe it is the VERY fact that there's a population within walking distance of the station that makes it a problem for some.

We all know how much IE and the powers that be love to plonk stations in the most inhospitable places and then complain that no one uses rail so let's not invest in our services.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Plus building the station will help bring about higher density.

You're not suggesting for a second that we should use infrastructural improvements to make places more livable, thus encouraging more people to move to these areas are you?

Zebra3 wrote: »

Is it still an issue at Broombridge since the Luas opened there?

Fully gentrified now. 60 year old 2 bed council houses now fetching up to €400k, residents can't afford anti-social behaviour here anymore and there's heavy footfall (pre covid). Expect the same in South Finglas when Luas arrives.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The area is to low density and the volume isn't there to justify a station. The commercial space around there will not generate rail traffic. Its very like Broombridge.

Provisions should be made for a station in future however land rezoning will also be required and no station should be built until there is planning granted.

The bus is the best option for the area and quicker!

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

cgcsb wrote: »

So you would have no stations between Citywest and Drumcondra? what's the point in building it then?

Is that what I said?

Thankfully the days of Jamie's attitudes to PT are over.

What attitude would that be?

Can you provide sufficient data to warrant a station at Ballyfermot?

Much higher density than where the line leaves the M50 and has multiple stops. Not having a station also limits interchange potential.

What interchange potential?

The density of the area to the South is going to massively, massively increase in the next few years. Royal Liver Retail Park going for apartments, old Nissan plant (Fiat Ireland more recently) going for apartments. The low rise industrial/commercial North of the canal is going to be obviously on the block after that

I was only thinking something similar yesterday that in all the years I have known Ballyer [I grew up there and am still fond of tipping into Lam's once in a while], that the main strip at Colepark has never had an empty unit that I recall. And if it did, it wasn't for very long.

beauf wrote: »

In the yrs I was using the Docklands trains they actually shortened the trains as number of passengers increased. They wanted to close it, then move it. Using low numbers as a justification. When the reality was it was jammed beyond belief. Some weird scheming going on with all that.

The platforms can take much longer trains. The trains used to be longer. So I assume they robbed capacity from that line to use somewhere else. So even without changing the schedule. The line used to have higher capacity in the past.

Anyway sounds like there's similar "planning" going on with Dart+.

The whole thing is bizarre. They're using 29000 class bone-jarring rattleboxes to provide intercity service to Sligo and Rosslare, while using 22000s that are wholly unsuited to provide peak-hour services between M3 Parkway and the Docklands. I think they used to use 4 car ICRs on the Docklands trains and then switched to 3 car trains a few years back.

There may be a good technical reason why this is happening, if so the only solution is to get more fit for purpose trains ASAP. But if it's just IE playing silly buggers assigning train types inappropriately for no reason, then IMHO serious questions need to be asked.

You're probably right, there's likely a mix. But I do recall at least one peak hour train being shortened to 3 car 22k, which just struck me as bizarre.