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Proposed suckler cow subsidy

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Comments

  • #2
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    blue5000 wrote: »
    The comic wants to save our sucklers
    https://www.change.org/p/save-our-sucklers-open-letter-from-the-readers-of-the-irish-farmers-journal?recruiter=88210484&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_more.undefined.nafta_petition_show_share_buttons.control

    good to see you signed it, :D at least someone on here agrees with me


  • #3
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!


  • #4
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!

    Can't understand the difference you see in a steady stream of ould friesians and the same stream good quality suckler stock, processors'll have the numbers anyway.
    There's no one queuing to process our beef, it's like the land now, any farm/factory that closes now is divided by the big boys, we're /I'm lucky to have them, I certainly won't be complaining about the barons in farming or processing either


  • #5
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Willfarman wrote: »
    For just as little one euro a week you could help save the life of a suckler cow and save its owner from a life of destitution and friesian bullock ownership.. and ensure a steady stream of revenue to those bastions of society the beef barons!!

    I'm just after getting an email that by sharing the yoke above I influenced 4 ppl to sign the petition, one of them, I kid you not is a large beef processor. I think any country in the world can produce holstein x beef, but we are the only country in the N hemisphere still able to produce quality beef in large exportable quantities. The processors know this, they need the suckler cow to survive as much as we do. Rant over, apologies OP for the side track.

    I suggest a mix of beef heifer calves and fr bulls from the dairy neighbours. You can always put the best heifers in calf down the road, while you have fr bulls to sell while waiting for sucklers to come on stream.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #6
    Say my name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    blue5000 wrote: »
    I'm just after getting an email that by sharing the yoke above I influenced 4 ppl to sign the petition, one of them, I kid you not is a large beef processor. I think any country in the world can produce holstein x beef, but we are the only country in the N hemisphere still able to produce quality beef in large exportable quantities. The processors know this, they need the suckler cow to survive as much as we do. Rant over, apologies OP for the side track.

    I suggest a mix of beef heifer calves and fr bulls from the dairy neighbours. You can always put the best heifers in calf down the road, while you have fr bulls to sell while waiting for sucklers to come on stream.

    My father do be giving out about the my farming week part in the journal.
    This week was no different with the part time farmer with dexters and the wife with a good job.
    His complaint is when are they going to have some real farmers in the section and where are they getting these hobby farmers from?

    It's not PC. But there you go.

    He can't be the only one thinking this.


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  • #7
    Muckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Say my name wrote: »
    My father do be giving out about the my farming week part in the journal.
    This week was no different with the part time farmer with dexters and the wife with a good job.
    His complaint is when are they going to have some real farmers in the section and where are they getting these hobby farmers from?

    It's not PC. But there you go.

    He can't be the only one thinking this.

    The realty is that the IFJ are playing to their audience. The more hobby farmers, the bigger their readership. If everyone was fulltime, the numbers would reduce drastically and they would be gone. The small farmer keeps many people in jobs in this country.


  • #8
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Muckit wrote: »
    The realty is that the IFJ are playing to their audience. The more hobby farmers, the bigger their readership. If everyone was fulltime, the numbers would reduce drastically and they would be gone. The small farmer keeps many people in jobs in this country.

    Hence the need to keep the suckler cow where she is, .......and of course keep her profitable.,
    Journal is doing well and investing back into rural communities, win win so


  • #9
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Environmental schemes and encouraging more extensive type suckler herds would have a far better chance of having a positive affect. I think this nonsense has more to with Ifa levies than anything else..


  • #10
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    I dont get it.
    Why would a lad keep a 700 kg cow that eats more than a store and rear a middling calf that gets €800 in the mart and then has the hand out for the €200 needed to get to the magic €1000 mark???????
    If he bred the right stock and had the clue and cop on of a decent business man and produced shapey export type weanlings he could keep the cap on his head and not looking for it to be filled.
    Farming is a fecking business not a right.
    I probably am going to get a pasting for even saying the above but i dont give a toss. Is the definition of insanity not doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?? Or am i misssing the trick here entirely?


  • #11
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Lets us just look closely at what the IFJ, the IFA and Teagasc are pushing for. The suggest we subsidise a system that is inherently unprofitable and with the subsidy will continue to be unprofitable in a vast amount of the country. Why are they doing this, because they want to want to keep numbers up for readers, leavies and clients.

    Lets take the FJ first this is just the tip of the iceberg they are also lobbying ti increase the grid differencial to 8c/kg. which will reduce the beef price on about 60% of cattle being slaughtered, make no difference to 25-30% and increase the value of 10% of the cattle.

    For the suckler farmers in the west of Ireland's new friend the IFA that is completly against reorganisation of the cap. It is the same organisation that allowed a GLAS system that is hard on commage farmers and tough on west of Ireland farmer in particular. By lobbing for a watered down reps 10 years ago they have allowed larger farmers to plunder these funds. It lobby's for a suckler subsidy but will not lobby for producer groups legislation. A fair GlAS, a leveling of BPS rates, a flat rate greening and producer groups would all be much more benefical to any type of west of Ireland farmer rather than a miserable SC subsidy. to the average farmer what will it be worth 2-3K. and committed like at present with the cow welfare to keep cows that maybe losing you money thereby forcing you to farm unprofitable.

    And we come to Teagasc that is being now funded by Pillar two funds and not happy with that they are illegally charging for membership of discussion groups.

    We can do nothing about the amount of calves that come off dairy herds. I mean nothing these herds will produce a product that is competitive to finish. At present for the first time in 8-10 years the Continental beef market is returning a good price for heavy better type carcasses. Along with a UK market that is returning a decent price for the last 10 years alone. The UK market requires lighter carcasses in the 280-330kg bracket ideally. But for how long will this be the case in the case of central european prices.

    Yet we have a processing industry that continues to pay at the lower end for out product and will use any excuse to force down prices to increase there profitability. Larry Goodman's net worth went up 40 million last year not all because of AIBP but backed by it ability to generate massive profits.

    These are the people lobbying for an SC subsidy that will continue to force and encourage farmer to farm at a loss. Wake up and smell the coffee. Blue you are incorrect about any country can produce dairy cross beef. Most cannot as there dairy system is based on an indoor extreme HO system where cows have a 2 lactation lifespan and must continuely be bred to HO bulls to produce replacements and a large porportion of these calves will be either used to produce veal or go the young bull beef route. France, Italy and Spain etc have larger continental based suckler herds than us. There are over 12 million suckler cows in the EU believe it or not....... It is projected that this will decline by about 1 million cows along with a general reduction in beef production.

    The market forces in Ireland are deciding what way the market goes. Larger suckler and tillage farmers that see themselves in a low margin business are deciding to change to dairying. Dairy herds are maturing and the glut of Fr bulls is reducing. Yes at present we may have an issue with the quality of some of the beef bulls being used in dairy herds but market forces will sort that out over time. The best way to make a fool of yourself is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • #12
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Environmental schemes and encouraging more extensive type suckler herds would have a far better chance of having a positive affect. I think this nonsense has more to with Ifa levies than anything else..


    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted


  • #13
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted

    Put your glasses on old man and read my post again.


  • #14
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Put your glasses on old man and read my post again.

    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.


  • #15
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.

    Dont get a penny.☺
    And making a few bob.
    You dont know what preclude means so.


  • #16
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »
    Do you think that any farmer going to Dublin to meetings gives a sh..e about the levies or the funding of the Organisation. I hate to burst your bubble but they don't.
    There's a strong message coming from farmers that they need a subsidy and that's what the county reps will prioritise.
    Then CC comes on and claims that €200 subsidy will preclude them from breeding €1000 weanlings,.....You couldn't make it up.
    5000 signatures is good enough support to ensure a subsidy is wanted
    wrangler wrote: »
    I've read the post right,
    And won't you have the cap out next may for your subsidy as well, probably, like a lot of drystock farmers, an above average subsidy as well.
    Rural Ireland needs sucklers, and suckler cows needs to be subsidised.

    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #17
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Dont get a penny.☺
    And making a few bob.
    You dont know what preclude means so.

    preclude....prevent from happening; make impossible.


  • #18
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    preclude....prevent from happening; make impossible.

    Well done .

    If the suckler men want a sub let them go to Larry and co and let it be for u and e grade cattle. If they are not producing to that level they are at nothing.


  • #19
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    No you're talking about farmers representing farmers and trying to deliver what's needed. Make the €200/cow available and give the farmers the choice to avail or not,
    or Do you think you're the messiah to save farmers from themselves because I think you're implying that's what IFAs role should be
    I thought the same as you about the ewe subsidy....delighted with it now.
    I wouldn't oppose it anyway, there's farmers needed it worse than I did.
    Anyway It's probably not going to happen, Creed won't be in charge and neither will the present Government so they can promise what they like.
    Journal is right to appeal to Europe, our guys will drive it on there


  • #20
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Well done .

    If the suckler men want a sub let them go to Larry and co and let it be for u and e grade cattle. If they are not producing to that level they are at nothing.

    No matter what level you're at in Drystock, you could say the same


  • #21
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    No matter what level you're at in Drystock, you could say the same

    Im not looking for any handout for my o's and r's


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  • #22
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    No you're talking about farmers representing farmers and trying to deliver what's needed. Make the €200/cow available and give the farmers the choice to avail or not,
    or Do you think you're the messiah to save farmers from themselves because I think you're implying that's what IFAs role should be
    I thought the same as you about the ewe subsidy....delighted with it now.
    I wouldn't oppose it anyway, there's farmers needed it worse than I did.
    Anyway It's probably not going to happen, Creed won't be in charge and neither will the present Government so they can promise what they like.
    Journal is right to appeal to Europe, our guys will drive it on there

    You are a mighty man dor putting words in lads mouths!!


  • #23
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Mod note: moved from the 'Opinions, please thread'

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057831389

    And keep it civil please, folks!

    Buford T. Justice


  • #24
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,698 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    I think we need to step back a bit and try look at the bigger picture. Why aren't sucklers profitable?

    IMO it's inefficient to produce 0.79 calves/cow on average per year.
    It's inefficient to have to feed 7-800kg cows that only produce a weanling of 250-300kg.
    It's inefficient trying to produce export quality weanlings where the vet bills are building up year to year because of calving difficulties.

    Blue you are incorrect about any country can produce dairy cross beef. Most cannot as there dairy system is based on an indoor extreme HO system where cows have a 2 lactation lifespan and must continuely be bred to HO bulls to produce replacements and a large porportion of these calves will be either used to produce veal or go the young bull beef route. France, Italy and Spain etc have larger continental based suckler herds than us. There are over 12 million suckler cows in the EU believe it or not.....

    Bass I think you missed what I was trying to say, the point I was trying to make was that we can still export large quantities of quality beef, where do you think all those 4 yr old cull cows end up? I'll tell you where, on someone's plate as a meatball/burger/as a mini steak. It's happening here too, with cull cows going straight from the mart to the factory. France (66.9m), Italy(60.6m) and Spain (46.5m) might have more suckler cows than us, but the human population in these countries is a lot bigger than ours (4.7m) too.
    In 2015 there were just over 1m suckler cows in Ireland, here is a eurostat for number of animals in each country http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Livestock_population,_2016_(million_head).png

    In Ireland
    we have 4.7m people and 6.6m cattle
    France has 66.9m people and 19m cattle
    Spain has 46.5m people and 6.28m cattle
    Italy has 60.6m people and 6.3m cattle

    This is where our beef (and dairy) exports come from.


    I bet the French have found a nice big loophole to subsidise their suckler cows.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



  • #25
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,259 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.


  • #26
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    In a subsidised system it is imperative to maximise subsidy , if the Govt/EU is willing to pay a subsidy take it.


  • #27
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    No you did not read the post right. this is not the first or second time you missread a post to serve up you own propganda. CC did not claim that a 200 euro subsidy will preclude lads from producing better weanlings. He highlighted the fact that lots of suckler farmers producing calves at a loss rather than producing a calf that is suitable for the export market to solve there issue now have there hand out for a subsidy.

    On the assertian that 5K signatures are enough to support for a subsidy and IFA being driven by CC. What proper representive organisation will lobby for a subsidy in this case that has huge negative connotations for the wider drystock industry. But then we are taking about the IFA and logic and commonsense is not part of it remit

    You still haven't disclosed where all the extra land is going to come from to feed the extra cattle that the ''barons'' are going to get....the fact is there'll probably be less cattle killed even if the cow numbers increase marginally.
    There's no reason why there won't be a quota the same as the ewes, in fact it'd likely be mandatory that a scheme wouldn't incentivise an increase in the national suckler herd


  • #28
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Increased use of imported artificial fertilizer predominantly nitrogen and increased use of imported gm maize, soya, and grain. And a fodder”crisis” every third year!! I credit you with more intelligence that this rangler and I dont believe you really believe a word of your own bluster. Your loyalty to the club is admirable.

    Subsidizing production for the processing industry will do nothing for the man with the sprong. A payment would be welcome but don’t couple it to a live cow. Couple it to hedgerows, nature, quality grading cattle and environmentaly friendly extensive farming.


  • #29
    yewtree
    Registered Users Posts: 811 ✭✭✭yewtree


    K.G. wrote: »
    Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

    Would have to agree with that, a lot of suckler cows around here. All you are going to do is support inefficent producers. A lot of suckler calves i see are not much better than dairy cross calves


  • #30
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Increased use of imported artificial fertilizer predominantly nitrogen and increased use of imported gm maize, soya, and grain. And a fodder”crisis” every third year!! I credit you with more intelligence that this rangler and I dont believe you really believe a word of your own bluster. Your loyalty to the club is admirable.

    Subsidizing production for the processing industry will do nothing for the man with the sprong. A payment would be welcome but don’t couple it to a live cow. Couple it to hedgerows, nature, quality grading cattle and environmentaly friendly extensive farming.

    Typical BS, when you can't put up an argument you resort to implying That I can't think for myself.
    I know if I had 50 sucklers I'd take my €10000 with open arms....you won't get that from the market place in case you haven't noticed.


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  • #31
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    yewtree wrote: »
    Would have to agree with that, a lot of suckler cows around here. All you are going to do is support inefficent producers. A lot of suckler calves i see are not much better than dairy cross calves

    Same in any sector, I dread to think of drinking or eating stuff produced on some farms....compulsory QA might sort some


  • #32
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    wrangler wrote: »
    Typical BS, when you can't put up an argument you resort to implying That I can't think for myself.
    I know if I had 50 sucklers I'd take my €10000 with open arms....you won't get that from the market place in case you haven't noticed.

    That makes you as bad as the lads proping up the narrow strip of wall between the bookies and the pub smoking at 11.30am on a Wedneaday morning.


  • #33
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

    But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?


  • #34
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    That makes you as bad as the lads proping up the narrow strip of wall between the bookies and the pub smoking at 11.30am on a Wedneaday morning.

    Same as every farmer that sends in a BPS form, it's the way 'they' have made us I suppose.
    You should join the club, shame to see you left out, I've 33 high value entitlement to lease out this year....€5000 profit in nine mths for filling a form


  • #35
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

    But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?

    Ah but the likes of that lad is the enemy. He is looked at as no better than the knacker. Waste disposal for the dairy boys and glutting the market for the rest. And please dont give me guff about bad land. I was doing a scheme back the far end of Lettermore and met one guy and got talking. He said come down here and ill show ya what I have. He had a big newly constructed byre and 14 cows chained up with the finest calves I have seen in any field or yard in the country. Ave price 1050 per weanling over last 5 years. If he can do it on rock and rushes then there is no excuse for the rest.


  • #36
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

    But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?

    There is a school of thought, on here even, that the grid is wrong and Os are really worth 10% less than they're making and Us 10% more than they're making.
    That the grid is based on a much lower price.....that'd probably provide an extra bonus for the suckler too


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  • #37
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    There is also a school of thought here even that the current system is cheapening a far greater tonnage of beef for the barons that it is adding value to. But thems saying it aren't the financial backbone of the union and therefore must be ignored even if they are correct...


  • #38
    wrangler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,224 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Willfarman wrote: »
    There is also a school of thought here even that the current system is cheapening a far greater tonnage of beef for the barons that it is adding value to. But thems saying it aren't the financial backbone of the union and therefore must be ignored even if they are correct...

    I'd say there's even a mathematical formula to prove my theory,
    I wouldn't like to see beef any dearer with larry supplying england with cheaper polish friesian beef,.... customers aren't fools


  • #39
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Bass will be along shortly to explain it to you.


  • #40
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,911 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

    'If I ventured in the slipstream, Between the viaducts of your dream'



  • #41
    Willfarman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Ah that gave it a lift all the same patsy!
    A ray of sunshine....,,. " You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille with 4 little children and me bales running out"


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  • #42
    Limestone Cowboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,542 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

    You forgot brexit :D


  • #43
    Say my name
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

    I hope you're not from Kilkenny?

    Wexford 3 in a row.

    Ps. All subs should be abolished over all Europe, forestry included and trade restrictions upheld on non eu imports that aren't up to eu standards.
    Subs just turn farmers into infants always looking for more.
    There's a farmer near me with a e60k sfp and horses and sheep. Sheep constantly breaking out. Horses been impounded. Telling anyone who'll listen that he hasn't two cents to rub together and farming is bet. Nobody's asked him the simple question why is he still farming though.


  • #44
    Bullocks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    Ah but the likes of that lad is the enemy. He is looked at as no better than the knacker. Waste disposal for the dairy boys and glutting the market for the rest. And please dont give me guff about bad land. I was doing a scheme back the far end of Lettermore and met one guy and got talking. He said come down here and ill show ya what I have. He had a big newly constructed byre and 14 cows chained up with the finest calves I have seen in any field or yard in the country. Ave price 1050 per weanling over last 5 years. If he can do it on rock and rushes then there is no excuse for the rest.

    That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
    I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
    I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock


  • #45
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    Bullocks wrote: »
    That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
    I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
    I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

    And what about the lads back there with 14 hex cows and bulled by the best weanling from the year before. They are losing their boll1x altogether.


  • #46
    Bullocks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    And what about the lads back there with 14 hex cows and bulled by the best weanling from the year before. They are losing their boll1x altogether.

    Unless they have the run of a mountain with way less wintering , housing , fodder and slurry/dung costs .
    Theres a good reason that the conemarra area would be using traditional breeds and maybe crossing them with a continental for a bit of style .


  • #47
    CloughCasey1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭CloughCasey1


    Bullocks wrote: »
    That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
    I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
    I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

    I was more saying if he can produce that type why cant everyone. But sure what would i know about it either.☺


  • #48
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    blue5000 wrote: »
    I think we need to step back a bit and try look at the bigger picture. Why aren't sucklers profitable?

    IMO it's inefficient to produce 0.79 calves/cow on average per year.
    It's inefficient to have to feed 7-800kg cows that only produce a weanling of 250-300kg.
    It's inefficient trying to produce export quality weanlings where the vet bills are building up year to year because of calving difficulties.



    Bass I think you missed what I was trying to say, the point I was trying to make was that we can still export large quantities of quality beef, where do you think all those 4 yr old cull cows end up? I'll tell you where, on someone's plate as a meatball/burger/as a mini steak. It's happening here too, with cull cows going straight from the mart to the factory. France (66.9m), Italy(60.6m) and Spain (46.5m) might have more suckler cows than us, but the human population in these countries is a lot bigger than ours (4.7m) too.
    In 2015 there were just over 1m suckler cows in Ireland, here is a eurostat for number of animals in each country http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Livestock_population,_2016_(million_head).png

    In Ireland
    we have 4.7m people and 6.6m cattle
    France has 66.9m people and 19m cattle
    Spain has 46.5m people and 6.28m cattle
    Italy has 60.6m people and 6.3m cattle

    This is where our beef (and dairy) exports come from.


    I bet the French have found a nice big loophole to subsidise their suckler cows.

    Blue as you explained most problems with suckler profitability need to be addressed inside the gate. It up to lads to adapt to the market and produce for it. But the problem with producing extra beef is that we have to market it. History has taught us that extra beef =lower prices across the whole industry.

    France never decoupled there suckler cow premia so french suckler farmers are forced to produce wheather they like it or not.

    wrangler wrote: »
    You still haven't disclosed where all the extra land is going to come from to feed the extra cattle that the ''barons'' are going to get....the fact is there'll probably be less cattle killed even if the cow numbers increase marginally.
    There's no reason why there won't be a quota the same as the ewes, in fact it'd likely be mandatory that a scheme wouldn't incentivise an increase in the national suckler herd

    Where did all the extra land appear out of that caused the kill to rise by 100K head last year and dairy production to expand by about 20%+. It was there all along just under utilised. Some of it was at the cost of fodder production hense we have a a small shortage this year

    wrangler wrote: »
    I'd say there's even a mathematical formula to prove my theory,
    I wouldn't like to see beef any dearer with larry supplying england with cheaper polish friesian beef,.... customers aren't fools

    Suckler subsidy and extra beef =lower prices to farmer and more profit for Larry

    There is your formula. We can do little about what beef Poland produces or Holland either. But there beef price early last year was about 3/kg it is now 3.5/kg. Our has remained static in the same period while Beef prices have climbed across Europe with the exception of Holland who beef nobody wants.
    Bullocks wrote: »
    That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
    I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
    I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

    You would be surprised. More than likely he is stocked about a cow to the HA or even lower than that. High rate of ANC 1500 euro. GLAS 3K, SFP 250/HA about 3750K. Discussion group and suckler welfare 2.5K. If he manages to keep his costs/cow below 550/head then he could be looking at 9K from cattle.
    After deduction for costs involved in GLAS, discussion Group etc he may be clearing 20K.
    CloughCasey1 wrote: »
    I was more saying if he can produce that type why cant everyone. But sure what would i know about it either.☺

    There is different ways to peel an apple. He has only 15 cows and that may be all he is able to manage with work. He has adapted his system more than likly around work. Another lads may have slightly better land using an easier calving LM bull on 30 HE cows carrying there calves to finish. Finishing the bulls at sub 16 months or as 2 year olds. Most lads that are efficient getting a calf/cow each year are making a bob if they can keep there costs in order. But there is an awful lot that are not. Neighbour sold a nice LM bull in mart last week 430 for 830, he was blaming that it was not a charly for the low price. It had the capibility to finish as a bull next winter at 450 DW as an U. There is a nice twist in him for the next man.

    Suclers are all about having a system that is profitable.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • #49
    Bullocks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Bass Reeves wrote: »



    You would be surprised. More than likely he is stocked about a cow to the HA or even lower than that. High rate of ANC 1500 euro. GLAS 3K, SFP 250/HA about 3750K. Discussion group and suckler welfare 2.5K. If he manages to keep his costs/cow below 550/head then he could be looking at 9K from cattle.
    After deduction for costs involved in GLAS, discussion Group etc he may be clearing 20K.



    There is different ways to peel an apple. He has only 15 cows and that may be all he is able to manage with work. He has adapted his system more than likly around work. Another lads may have slightly better land using an easier calving LM bull on 30 HE cows carrying there calves to finish. Finishing the bulls at sub 16 months or as 2 year olds. Most lads that are efficient getting a calf/cow each year are making a bob if they can keep there costs in order. But there is an awful lot that are not. Neighbour sold a nice LM bull in mart last week 430 for 830, he was blaming that it was not a charly for the low price. It had the capibility to finish as a bull next winter at 450 DW as an U. There is a nice twist in him for the next man.

    Suclers are all about having a system that is profitable.

    I would be very surprised alright if he is keeping 14 cows all of the type to average over 1K Euro weanlings for 550 .
    I know well that some boys are producing great stuff in very challenging areas but these same boys tend to give a great do regardless of the economics .
    If he working to your sums we should all be back at that farm walk (if the tide let's us over the bridge haha )


  • #50
    Mac Taylor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭Mac Taylor


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

    This thread is giving the bad weather a good run for its money, it can be tiresome the way some threads end up being a peeing competition with the good posts getting lost in the mire........:eek:


  • #51
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Regards this proposed sub - is there a limit in the number of suckler cows per herd number/owner it will be paid on?? I hope so cos if its unlimited it will simply end up boosting the bottom line of Larry et al.


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