Proposed suckler cow subsidy

wrangler wrote: »

Typical BS, when you can't put up an argument you resort to implying That I can't think for myself.
I know if I had 50 sucklers I'd take my €10000 with open arms....you won't get that from the market place in case you haven't noticed.

That makes you as bad as the lads proping up the narrow strip of wall between the bookies and the pub smoking at 11.30am on a Wedneaday morning.

I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?

wrangler

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

That makes you as bad as the lads proping up the narrow strip of wall between the bookies and the pub smoking at 11.30am on a Wedneaday morning.

Same as every farmer that sends in a BPS form, it's the way 'they' have made us I suppose.
You should join the club, shame to see you left out, I've 33 high value entitlement to lease out this year....€5000 profit in nine mths for filling a form

Willfarman wrote: »

I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?

Ah but the likes of that lad is the enemy. He is looked at as no better than the knacker. Waste disposal for the dairy boys and glutting the market for the rest. And please dont give me guff about bad land. I was doing a scheme back the far end of Lettermore and met one guy and got talking. He said come down here and ill show ya what I have. He had a big newly constructed byre and 14 cows chained up with the finest calves I have seen in any field or yard in the country. Ave price 1050 per weanling over last 5 years. If he can do it on rock and rushes then there is no excuse for the rest.

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

I have argued against your point quite articulately. And yes the guy with 50 cows would be cock a hoop with the ifa... signing membership for himself his wife his parents and maybe even his mother in law too..

But what about the lad with friesian cross bullocks who have to produce in the real world? They aren't worthy of representation or subsidisation!?

There is a school of thought, on here even, that the grid is wrong and Os are really worth 10% less than they're making and Us 10% more than they're making.
That the grid is based on a much lower price.....that'd probably provide an extra bonus for the suckler too

There is also a school of thought here even that the current system is cheapening a far greater tonnage of beef for the barons that it is adding value to. But thems saying it aren't the financial backbone of the union and therefore must be ignored even if they are correct...

wrangler

Willfarman wrote: »

There is also a school of thought here even that the current system is cheapening a far greater tonnage of beef for the barons that it is adding value to. But thems saying it aren't the financial backbone of the union and therefore must be ignored even if they are correct...

I'd say there's even a mathematical formula to prove my theory,
I wouldn't like to see beef any dearer with larry supplying england with cheaper polish friesian beef,.... customers aren't fools

Bass will be along shortly to explain it to you.

patsy_mccabe

I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

Ah that gave it a lift all the same patsy!
A ray of sunshine....,,. " You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille with 4 little children and me bales running out"

Limestone Cowboy

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

You forgot brexit

Say my name

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

I hope you're not from Kilkenny?

Wexford 3 in a row.

Ps. All subs should be abolished over all Europe, forestry included and trade restrictions upheld on non eu imports that aren't up to eu standards.
Subs just turn farmers into infants always looking for more.
There's a farmer near me with a e60k sfp and horses and sheep. Sheep constantly breaking out. Horses been impounded. Telling anyone who'll listen that he hasn't two cents to rub together and farming is bet. Nobody's asked him the simple question why is he still farming though.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Ah but the likes of that lad is the enemy. He is looked at as no better than the knacker. Waste disposal for the dairy boys and glutting the market for the rest. And please dont give me guff about bad land. I was doing a scheme back the far end of Lettermore and met one guy and got talking. He said come down here and ill show ya what I have. He had a big newly constructed byre and 14 cows chained up with the finest calves I have seen in any field or yard in the country. Ave price 1050 per weanling over last 5 years. If he can do it on rock and rushes then there is no excuse for the rest.

That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

Bullocks wrote: »

That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

And what about the lads back there with 14 hex cows and bulled by the best weanling from the year before. They are losing their boll1x altogether.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

And what about the lads back there with 14 hex cows and bulled by the best weanling from the year before. They are losing their boll1x altogether.

Unless they have the run of a mountain with way less wintering , housing , fodder and slurry/dung costs .
Theres a good reason that the conemarra area would be using traditional breeds and maybe crossing them with a continental for a bit of style .

Bullocks wrote: »

That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

I was more saying if he can produce that type why cant everyone. But sure what would i know about it either.☺

Bass Reeves

blue5000 wrote: »

I think we need to step back a bit and try look at the bigger picture. Why aren't sucklers profitable?

IMO it's inefficient to produce 0.79 calves/cow on average per year.
It's inefficient to have to feed 7-800kg cows that only produce a weanling of 250-300kg.
It's inefficient trying to produce export quality weanlings where the vet bills are building up year to year because of calving difficulties.

Bass I think you missed what I was trying to say, the point I was trying to make was that we can still export large quantities of quality beef, where do you think all those 4 yr old cull cows end up? I'll tell you where, on someone's plate as a meatball/burger/as a mini steak. It's happening here too, with cull cows going straight from the mart to the factory. France (66.9m), Italy(60.6m) and Spain (46.5m) might have more suckler cows than us, but the human population in these countries is a lot bigger than ours (4.7m) too.
In 2015 there were just over 1m suckler cows in Ireland, here is a eurostat for number of animals in each country http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Livestock_population,_2016_(million_head).png

In Ireland
we have 4.7m people and 6.6m cattle
France has 66.9m people and 19m cattle
Spain has 46.5m people and 6.28m cattle
Italy has 60.6m people and 6.3m cattle

This is where our beef (and dairy) exports come from.

I bet the French have found a nice big loophole to subsidise their suckler cows.

Blue as you explained most problems with suckler profitability need to be addressed inside the gate. It up to lads to adapt to the market and produce for it. But the problem with producing extra beef is that we have to market it. History has taught us that extra beef =lower prices across the whole industry.

France never decoupled there suckler cow premia so french suckler farmers are forced to produce wheather they like it or not.

wrangler wrote: »

You still haven't disclosed where all the extra land is going to come from to feed the extra cattle that the ''barons'' are going to get....the fact is there'll probably be less cattle killed even if the cow numbers increase marginally.
There's no reason why there won't be a quota the same as the ewes, in fact it'd likely be mandatory that a scheme wouldn't incentivise an increase in the national suckler herd

Where did all the extra land appear out of that caused the kill to rise by 100K head last year and dairy production to expand by about 20%+. It was there all along just under utilised. Some of it was at the cost of fodder production hense we have a a small shortage this year

wrangler wrote: »

I'd say there's even a mathematical formula to prove my theory,
I wouldn't like to see beef any dearer with larry supplying england with cheaper polish friesian beef,.... customers aren't fools

Suckler subsidy and extra beef =lower prices to farmer and more profit for Larry

There is your formula. We can do little about what beef Poland produces or Holland either. But there beef price early last year was about 3/kg it is now 3.5/kg. Our has remained static in the same period while Beef prices have climbed across Europe with the exception of Holland who beef nobody wants.

Bullocks wrote: »

That lad in Lettermore would want every penny of his ANC money and a double cow premium to have 14 cows fed in a shed for a winter back there .
I doubt he is overly profitable just because he is getting a high price .
I get what youre saying about sucklers that should be breeding the E and U grade only though to increase profitability and have more buyers for their stock

You would be surprised. More than likely he is stocked about a cow to the HA or even lower than that. High rate of ANC 1500 euro. GLAS 3K, SFP 250/HA about 3750K. Discussion group and suckler welfare 2.5K. If he manages to keep his costs/cow below 550/head then he could be looking at 9K from cattle.
After deduction for costs involved in GLAS, discussion Group etc he may be clearing 20K.

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

I was more saying if he can produce that type why cant everyone. But sure what would i know about it either.☺

There is different ways to peel an apple. He has only 15 cows and that may be all he is able to manage with work. He has adapted his system more than likly around work. Another lads may have slightly better land using an easier calving LM bull on 30 HE cows carrying there calves to finish. Finishing the bulls at sub 16 months or as 2 year olds. Most lads that are efficient getting a calf/cow each year are making a bob if they can keep there costs in order. But there is an awful lot that are not. Neighbour sold a nice LM bull in mart last week 430 for 830, he was blaming that it was not a charly for the low price. It had the capibility to finish as a bull next winter at 450 DW as an U. There is a nice twist in him for the next man.

Suclers are all about having a system that is profitable.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You would be surprised. More than likely he is stocked about a cow to the HA or even lower than that. High rate of ANC 1500 euro. GLAS 3K, SFP 250/HA about 3750K. Discussion group and suckler welfare 2.5K. If he manages to keep his costs/cow below 550/head then he could be looking at 9K from cattle.
After deduction for costs involved in GLAS, discussion Group etc he may be clearing 20K.

There is different ways to peel an apple. He has only 15 cows and that may be all he is able to manage with work. He has adapted his system more than likly around work. Another lads may have slightly better land using an easier calving LM bull on 30 HE cows carrying there calves to finish. Finishing the bulls at sub 16 months or as 2 year olds. Most lads that are efficient getting a calf/cow each year are making a bob if they can keep there costs in order. But there is an awful lot that are not. Neighbour sold a nice LM bull in mart last week 430 for 830, he was blaming that it was not a charly for the low price. It had the capibility to finish as a bull next winter at 450 DW as an U. There is a nice twist in him for the next man.

Suclers are all about having a system that is profitable.

I would be very surprised alright if he is keeping 14 cows all of the type to average over 1K Euro weanlings for 550 .
I know well that some boys are producing great stuff in very challenging areas but these same boys tend to give a great do regardless of the economics .
If he working to your sums we should all be back at that farm walk (if the tide let's us over the bridge haha )

Mac Taylor

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I dunno which is more depressing, the weather, my diminishing number of bales or reading this thread.

This thread is giving the bad weather a good run for its money, it can be tiresome the way some threads end up being a peeing competition with the good posts getting lost in the mire........:eek:

Birdnuts

Regards this proposed sub - is there a limit in the number of suckler cows per herd number/owner it will be paid on?? I hope so cos if its unlimited it will simply end up boosting the bottom line of Larry et al.

grassroot1

Perhaps there are two issues for debate
1.Lack of profit in beef farming(unfair division of the retail price)
2.Should we introduce a payment to keep suckler cows for Ireland INC.

Grueller

K.G. wrote: »

Daftest thing ive ever heard.why not just give straight to larry.nevermind from an emissions point of view.looking at journal every week and seeing some of taxpayers money already wasted on buildings for suckers that makes no sense on hobby farms.if any crowd should get a sub its the tillage men considering the battering they ve taken and their importance nationally.lets face it 90 %of suckler farmers could jack it in the morning and it would make little difference to their standard of living as they have jobs.

The tillage sector? I have to disagree completely. They are producing a product from land that is of sufficient quality to run any enterprise you like. Dairy or whatever you like. That is not the case for the majority of suckler men.
As for tillage men not having off farm jobs. They are busy for about six weeks of the year and have pucks of time to run off farm jobs.
Whatever about subsidies and whether they should exist, I can see that argument but to give it to tillage men who are on top quality land. Sorry, not seeing it.

Who2

Would Larry still give a fair price if all the sucklers were gone and exporters stopped coming.

Who2 wrote: »

Would Larry still give a fair price if all the sucklers were gone and exporters stopped coming.

Course he would .......

sonnybill

If the lad in lettermore with 14 sucklers housed hadn't his own fodder and is buying in everything ie hay e35+ a round bale, straw 25 and 25kg bags of dairy nuts at E8.00 believe me he got no E1050 average this year, E40 ai, bullets , dosing , pour on, rent, etc etc They a past time I'm afraid

Butcher Boy

sonnybill wrote: »

If the lad in lettermore with 14 sucklers housed hadn't his own fodder and is buying in everything ie hay e35+ a round bale, straw 25 and 25kg bags of dairy nuts at E8.00 believe me he got no E1050 average this year, E40 ai, bullets , dosing , pour on, rent, etc etc They a past time I'm afraid

I have been to a lot of weanling sales this past year down here in west cork and Kerry and I can tell you the amount of them making the E1000 was very few.in macroom last Saturday 370 kg ch bulls E810 after along struggle.

White Clover

Butcher Boy wrote: »

I have been to a lot of weanling sales this past year down here in west cork and Kerry and I can tell you the amount of them making the E1000 was very few.in macroom last Saturday 370 kg ch bulls E810 after along struggle.

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

Butcher Boy

White Clover wrote: »

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

I saw nice outwintered lads a bit washed looking , 530kgs make E870.that was the best I saw ,the lighter they were the worse they were.

Bass Reeves

White Clover wrote: »

Off topic BB, what were friesian bullocks making? 500 to 550 kg, nice warm types

I was at a mart last week and these types were making 400ish with there weight. 400kg ones were making 300 with there weight. Same type of HE and AA were making 500 with there weight.