Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

noodler · 03-02-2019 6:54pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Another moronic post from you. Why don’t you go find out ? How , I’ve no idea .. we can only really go on people who work in hospitals or make rosters. What we do know is the government currently pay €2 million a week on agency staff ! €104 million per annum .. crazy figures

That's an absolutely disgraceful post.

If you don't like things being questioned then you've probably shown your true colours.

I'd prefer statistics than anecdotal evidence though, wouldn't you?

Miike · 03-02-2019 6:56pm

KaneToad wrote: »

It boils down to this, nurses are arguing that an increase in pay will stop nurses leaving. It would seem that the nurses leaving is not seen as that much of a problem ergo the nurses will fail in their attempts.

The union argument about the spending on agency staff doesn't make sense to me either. 104 million a year on agency but 300 million a year if nurses get pay claim. 104 < 300. Also an agency nurse doesn't command a pension, has differing sick leave entitlements and can be cut at will (ie are a very flexible resource) - all of which have cost saving implications.

Using agency staff has a dramatic impact on the quality and continuity of care. This has the caveat of having a negative impact on patient care.

Nurses are held responsible for every action, inaction or omission in their care. Every stroke of the pen is under scrutiny and when there is a shortage of staff on the ward how do you expect the staff (stretched ulta thin) to provide high quality care to all of the patients, if they're doing the work that's normally the work of more than 1 staff nurse? (all due to either recruitment or retention problems)

I agree with some of what you've said but it's not the whole picture - it's less than 50% of the picture. This is as much a problem of money as it is around patient safety but the media isn't going to get into the academic aspects of patient care and quality care metrics.

You can't have your cake and eat it, unfortunately.

03-02-2019 7:01pm

hawkelady wrote: »

What we do know is the government currently pay €2 million a week on agency staff ! €104 million per annum .. crazy figures

Some solid logic there.

Spending €104m is crazy while a €300m pay increase is fine?

iamwhoiam · 03-02-2019 7:04pm

noodler wrote: »

That's an absolutely disgraceful post.

If you don't like things being questioned then you've probably shown your true colours.

I'd prefer statistics than anecdotal evidence though, wouldn't you?

Then why don't you find out instead of asking posters to do so on your behalf ?

Ash.J.Williams · 03-02-2019 7:04pm

KaneToad wrote: »

It boils down to this, nurses are arguing that an increase in pay will stop nurses leaving. It would seem that the nurses leaving is not seen as that much of a problem ergo the nurses will fail in their attempts.

The union argument about the spending on agency staff doesn't make sense to me either. 104 million a year on agency but 300 million a year if nurses get pay claim. 104 < 300. Also an agency nurse doesn't command a pension, has differing sick leave entitlements and can be cut at will (ie are a very flexible resource) - all of which have cost saving implications.

That's one of the more sensible posts I've read on the subject. However, if it suits us to have nurses leaving and working abroad could we make further savings by cutting back in training them in the first place?

noodler · 03-02-2019 7:06pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Then why don't you find out instead of asking posters to do so on your behalf ?

I asked what it was, I didn't ask anybody to "find out on my behalf". So please, read up.

Also, it was relevant to the discussion about whether it widespread or more relevant to specific nurses.

iamwhoiam · 03-02-2019 7:08pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Another moronic post from you. Why don’t you go find out ? How , I’ve no idea .. we can only really go on people who work in hospitals or make rosters. What we do know is the government currently pay €2 million a week on agency staff ! €104 million per annum .. crazy figures

Quite a percentage of agency hours are in home care settings. Paediatric home care with 12 hourly shifts in their package . Kids with tracheostomies , PEG feeds etc are only allowed home with a care package in place
Eldery home care and adults with medical needs also covered by agency nurses

noodler · 03-02-2019 7:09pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

That's one of the more sensible posts I've read on the subject. However, if it suits us to have nurses leaving and working abroad could we make further savings by cutting back in training them in the first place?

Alot of official evidence says turnover is not out of the ordinary.

We need to stop taking the narrative as fact.

hawkelady · 03-02-2019 7:10pm

noodler wrote: »

That's an absolutely disgraceful post.

If you don't like things being questioned then you've probably shown your true colours.

I'd prefer statistics than anecdotal evidence though, wouldn't you?

Anyone who has a leaving cert or higher would know that an answer to the question you asked would be nigh on impossible to answer correctly ! Hence why I thought you were just being a smart alec !!

Apologies if you haven’t done your LC yet btw.

Listen to mike. He knows what he’s talking about.

noodler · 03-02-2019 7:11pm

hawkelady wrote: »

Anyone who has a leaving cert or higher would know that an answer to the question you asked would be nigh on impossible to answer correctly ! Hence why I thought you were just being a smart alec !!

Apologies if you haven’t done your LC yet btw.

Listen to mike. He knows what he’s talking about.

Wow.

We actually have statistics on lots of things.
The fact you think that's an unreasonable question makes me think you have too much skin in the discussion.

Anyway, if part of the claim is based on conditions such as having to do mandatory OT, I think it's fair to know how widespread that is.

For example you wouldn't want to be making decisions on the pay of 40,000 nurses costing 300m if it turns out its a minority of them that are working in particularly busy areas.

ste · 03-02-2019 7:14pm

You'd swear agency staff are sub-par half-nurses the way some of the reporting is.

Another thing to look at for nursing & public sector is complete Opt Out of pension. A lot talk about take home pay & comparing to wages in other jurisdictions without putting value of the excellent pension (albeit with contribution). With financial advice often to prioritize getting a home before focusing on pension perhaps it's time to give Public Sector this opportunity. Storing trouble for future maybe but good to offer choice IMO.

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 7:16pm

The big agency staff issue.

How many nurses are out sick or on maternity leave or holidays or training or them parental days off you get now or any of the other reasons you don’t have to actually be at the job.

How are them jobs expected to be held for these absent nurses without agency staff.

Should we hire a new permanent nurse every time a permanent nurse heads off for an undetermined amount of time?

Miike · 03-02-2019 7:22pm

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

The big agency staff issue.

How many nurses are out sick or on maternity leave or holidays or training or them parental days off you get now or any of the other reasons you don’t have to actually be at the job.

How are them jobs expected to be held for these absent nurses without agency staff.

Should we hire a new permanent nurse every time a permanent nurse heads off for an undetermined amount of time?

How dare nurses have the same employment rights as everyone else in the country... You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now if you're using these as arguments.
Did you know nurses are the most likely people to be assaulted and injured on the job compared to any other profession in this country? Maybe that would account for 1% of the people out on their fancy "sick days". Would you prefer no nurses got sick, had babies or used their legal entitlement to maternity leave or parental leave?

ste wrote: »

You'd swear agency staff are sub-par half-nurses the way some of the reporting is.

Another thing to look at for nursing & public sector is complete Opt Out of pension. A lot talk about take home pay & comparing to wages in other jurisdictions without putting value of the excellent pension (albeit with contribution). With financial advice often to prioritize getting a home before focusing on pension perhaps it's time to give Public Sector this opportunity. Storing trouble for future maybe but good to offer choice IMO.

Agency nurses break the chain of continuity of care. Wards are incredibly complex environments and to claim a sub is as good as a staff nurse is blindly ignorant. Do you think in your job or your company that agency could do any job in the building as well as any WTE staff in their role? Agency staff should be not routine but in extreme circumstances only.

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 7:27pm

Miike wrote: »

How dare nurses have the same employment rights as everyone else in the country... You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now if you're using these as arguments.
Did you know nurses are the most likely people to be assaulted and injured on the job compared to any other profession in this country? Maybe that would account for 1% of the people out on their fancy "sick days". Would you prefer no nurses got sick, had babies or used their legal entitlement to maternity leave or parental leave?

Agency nurses break the chain of continuity of care. Wards are incredibly complex environments and to claim a sub is as good as a staff nurse is blindly ignorant. Do you think in your job or your company that agency could do any job in the building as well as any WTE staff in their role? Agency staff should be not routine but in extreme circumstances only.

The same rights as everybody else? You all went from your mammies breast straight onto the public suckers didn’t you.

I don’t get sick pay, pension, parental days off. Security in my job and very few people who arnt hoovering money out of the tax stash do.

It’s an absolute money grab. Get it before the bus drivers or the gaurds get it is the mantra.

Annabella1 · 03-02-2019 7:29pm

Think nurses will get modest pay rise but it won’t be for nothing
Sick leave is excessively high compared to junior docs
Nurses seem to be paid for the amount of years they work but there seems to be minimal pay inceases for specialisation and extra qualifications
Unions may have to accept that some nursing jobs like theatre nurses may be replaced by other technicians at cheaper wage

03-02-2019 7:30pm

salonfire wrote: »

Some solid logic there.

Spending €104m is crazy while a €300m pay increase is fine?

Increasing pay won't make the requirement for agency staff go away either.

Miike · 03-02-2019 7:31pm

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

The same rights as everybody else? You all went from your mammies breast straight onto the public suckers didn’t you.

I don’t get sick pay, pension, parental days off. Security in my job and very few people who arnt hoovering money out of the tax stash do.

It’s an absolute money grab. Get it before the bus drivers or the gaurds get it is the mantra.

You keep throwing up pension like it's free, comical.

Inline with the parental leave act you're entitled to that leave as any PS/CS staff. It's not paid but neither is for the PS/CS.

Sick pay is part of the contract you signed on for. Look for a better job if you want to be paid on sick leave. (it seems like thats the logic from most people here re nurse conditions?)

ste · 03-02-2019 7:32pm

Miike wrote: »

How dare nurses have the same employment rights as everyone else in the country... You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now if you're using these as arguments.
Did you know nurses are the most likely people to be assaulted and injured on the job compared to any other profession in this country? Maybe that would account for 1% of the people out on their fancy "sick days". Would you prefer no nurses got sick, had babies or used their legal entitlement to maternity leave or parental leave?

Agency nurses break the chain of continuity of care. Wards are incredibly complex environments and to claim a sub is as good as a staff nurse is blindly ignorant. Do you think in your job or your company that agency could do any job in the building as well as any WTE staff in their role?

Miike I have some insight actually so less assumptions please. Like many careers including nursing & for reasons you touch on about unavoidable employee gaps (sick, maternity, training etc) I expect there will always be a cohort of temporary/cover staff
required. Quite whether they come from a pool of permanent backup/cover staff or an agency I'd let operational management weigh up the pros/cons.

My point really is that having flexible hard-working staff to plug gaps can be very valuable & I wanted to counterpoint the lazy narrative on agency staff.

FWIW I accept continuity of care is important but experience & skillset mix isn't expected to be flat across a large staff group. There will always be requirememt for backup/cover staff unless we somehow manage to create operational perfection.

03-02-2019 7:34pm

Miike wrote: »

.....

Agency nurses break the chain of continuity of care. Wards are incredibly complex environments and to claim a sub is as good as a staff nurse is blindly ignorant. Do you think in your job or your company that agency could do any job in the building as well as any WTE staff in their role? Agency staff should be not routine but in extreme circumstances only.

Agency staff in IT & engineering gigs have been performing temp work for decades as many staff folk don't have the expertise.

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 7:37pm

As regards the most likely to be assaulted in their job stat which I couldn’t be bothered looking at. I’d say the majority are assaults from 100 year old women.

Which job is most likely to cause the death or injury of their customers through misconduct assault or neglect?

Just out of interest would nursing be up there? In the top ten?

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 7:39pm

Augeo wrote: »

Agency staff in IT & engineering gigs have been performing temp work for decades as many staff folk don't have the expertise.

In all industries. If we havnt got a certain type of welder on our crew or that welder has been fired for missing a few days or not performing to a satisfactory level we will call in an agency lad.

Miike · 03-02-2019 7:40pm

ste wrote: »

Miike I have some insight actually so less assumptions please. Like many careers including nursing & for reasons you touch on about unavoidable employee gaps (sick, maternity, training etc) I expect there will always be a cohort of temporary/cover staff
required. Quite whether they come from a pool of permanent backup/cover staff or an agency I'd let operational management weigh up the pros/cons.

My point really is that having flexible hard-working staff to plug gaps can be very valuable & I wanted to counterpoint the lazy narrative on agency staff.

FWIW I accept continuity of care is important but experience & skillset mix isn't expected to be flat across a large staff group. There will always be requirememt for backup/cover staff unless we somehow manage to create operational perfection.

Ste, my apologies if you feel I've undermined your knowledge. This was not my intention but I try to cover as much as I can in replies here so when other people read them, they might take that onboard and retort to it.

Agency staff play a vital role in our health system but the extent at which they're being deployed is far too high and is having impacts on the standard of care and this is observable in any unit where agency is routine. Agency staff can't provide certain aspects of care (one example of which would be a Nursing Care Plan) because they simply don't have the required exposure of client or unit to do so. These are vital parts of nursing care and a requirement of the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland for every client in the system.

Operational perfection is a dream but nevertheless should be the goal.

Miike · 03-02-2019 7:46pm

Augeo wrote: »

Agency staff in IT & engineering gigs have been performing temp work for decades as many staff folk don't have the expertise.

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

In all industries. If we havnt got a certain type of welder on our crew or that welder has been fired for missing a few days or not performing to a satisfactory level we will call in an agency lad.

I do not refute that agency staff are good at what they do. I'm simply asking do you think agency staff understand all the procedural intricacies associated with where they work or the company they work for and provide the exact same standard as a full time employee of 10+ years? If this was the case not one of us would have full time, permanent jobs in any sector.

Mrsmum · 03-02-2019 8:13pm

The thing about nurses leaving, one of the attractions for young people thinking of this career is the very fact that you can travel all over the world with a nursing degree. I know many young girls that are already dreaming of Australia as they are filling out the CAO form before they ever set foot in a ward. So inho there will always be a high amount of nurses who want to go abroad regardless of conditions or pay here. Quality of life outside the hospital abroad is a big attraction. Secondly from what you hear conditions in hospitals are tough but the pay rise spread thinly across the board won't cause any big change in those conditions and individually won't be enough to compensate any nurse who is able and wants to leave. So what guarantee would we have that we won't end up with an increased wage bill for the nurses and still pay the same agency bill.

Miike · 03-02-2019 8:23pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

The thing about nurses leaving, one of the attractions for young people thinking of this career is the very fact that you can travel all over the world with a nursing degree. I know many young girls that are already dreaming of Australia as they are filling out the CAO form before they ever set foot in a ward. So inho there will always be a high amount of nurses who want to go abroad regardless of conditions or pay here. Quality of life outside the hospital abroad is a big attraction. Secondly from what you hear conditions in hospitals are tough but the pay rise spread thinly across the board won't cause any big change in those conditions and individually won't be enough to compensate any nurse who is able and wants to leave. So what guarantee would we have that we won't end up with an increased wage bill for the nurses and still pay the same agency bill.

My take on the wage increase is that it would make the salary and thus job more palatable for graduates making them more inclined to remain. As it stands, I would argue, there is currently no incentive for them to stay

Twenty Grand · 03-02-2019 8:27pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

The thing about nurses leaving, one of the attractions for young people thinking of this career is the very fact that you can travel all over the world with a nursing degree.

You can travel the world with many degrees. Once the recession hit anyone with a trade left the country.
Why are there large nursing shortages in Ireland and the UK over other professions?

Mooooo · 03-02-2019 8:30pm

Dunno the figures but I would reckon a large amount of graduates of every degree course leave initially. Half my chemistry course emigrated, only a couple came back. And that was before the crash

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 8:42pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

You can travel the world with many degrees. Once the recession hit anyone with a trade left the country.
Why are there large nursing shortages in Ireland and the UK over other professions?

I’m not saying there is but it may be due to the low level of points needed for nursing as opposed to other options like medicine law etc.
Lads who want to travel and can’t or don’t want to do college get a trade and girls don’t really have the trade option so do nursing.
I know you will say a girl can do a trade but female plumbers and brick layers are very few and far between in real life Ireland.

animaal · 03-02-2019 8:45pm

ste wrote: »

Another thing to look at for nursing & public sector is complete Opt Out of pension.

I can just see it...

1. The opt-out from the pension will result in some form of a negotiated benefit/payoff in its place.
2. In a few years there'll be union action for the poor people without pension.
3. Everybody given back their pensions, and keep the payoff too.

Goldengirl · 03-02-2019 8:46pm

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

So your way of dealing with spiraling rent costs is to give 37000 people a payrise to up their ability to raise rent?

Followed by the gaurds and the bus and Luas drivers and the teachers.

Everyone else can feck off to carrickfergus

I thought the guards, the teachers and the Luas and bus drivers had already had their pay rises.ðŸ™„

Miike · 03-02-2019 8:51pm

Nurses study nursing because they can't do / don't want to do a trade...

That's enough internet for today. Good night everyone!

Wheeliebin30 · 03-02-2019 8:55pm

Miike wrote: »

Using agency staff has a dramatic impact on the quality and continuity of care. This has the caveat of having a negative impact on patient care.

Nurses are held responsible for every action, inaction or omission in their care. Every stroke of the pen is under scrutiny and when there is a shortage of staff on the ward how do you expect the staff (stretched ulta thin) to provide high quality care to all of the patients, if they're doing the work that's normally the work of more than 1 staff nurse? (all due to either recruitment or retention problems)

I agree with some of what you've said but it's not the whole picture - it's less than 50% of the picture. This is as much a problem of money as it is around patient safety but the media isn't going to get into the academic aspects of patient care and quality care metrics.

You can't have your cake and eat it, unfortunately.

I’ve never heard of a nurse been held accountable for anything in this country?

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 8:58pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I’ve never heard of a nurse been held accountable for anything in this country?

There was two of them that managed to have a woman get strangled on their watch. They put her into bed, changed her clothes and clocked out. A post mortem found she died of strangulation which I doubt they were happy about so they said she died in her chair where she slipped and her strap choked her.
They got suspended for a couple of years the last I heard. The way she was put in the bed makes me wonder does this happen often. But I’m not a doctor or in the know.

Goldengirl · 03-02-2019 8:59pm

jay0109 wrote: »

Again, with the Socialist Workers Party rhetoric:rolleyes:

I'll repeat- the banking bailout will cost 60bn in the end. Disgusting, horrible. I'm 100% with you on that.
But there was another 60bn+ borrowed around the time of the crash and after from the Troika to pay the daily bills the Government were running up i.e. Teachers, Nurses, Guards, Civil Servants etc. We are also still paying that back.
The tax base had collapsed, the Govt wage bill had gone way beyond what the country could afford.

The crash was two fold, it wasn't just the banking burst. You must have heard of this?

And no, I'm not a banker or builder :rolleyes:

I am not a member of any political party...ðŸ™„

So the government could not access money to pay the people working for them because the banks crashed fue to a property developers bubble , and along with paying g the debt back to the ECB that Irish banks owed , they were looking to the Troika to give money for day to day expenditure. Are you seriously trying to blame the Public service for the national debt?

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 9:00pm

Miike wrote: »

Nurses study nursing because they can't do / don't want to do a trade...

That's enough internet for today. Good night everyone!

No because it has lower points than other degrees just like myself who went and got a trade because I didn’t get the points to do law.

Mrsmum · 03-02-2019 9:02pm

Regarding the agency nurses and lack of continuity, is it not more likely that the same agency nurse turns up at the same hospital or ward regularly rather than a constant stream of span new agency nurses to that hospital/ward every day kind of thing ??

Goldengirl · 03-02-2019 9:03pm

jay0109 wrote: »

The Gardai were the same when they got their extra pay rise a couple of years ago. Reports quickly appeared after they got the new deal, that the average Gardai pay was 66k all in.
And that if you allow for the pension (full pension available after 30yrs service), the total Gardai package was worth over €100k per year. And this from people who faked over 1m breath tests and not 1 of them was reprimanded!

From what I've read, average nurses pay here is about €55k per year. And if the defined benefit pension is factored in, that rises to around 70-75k.

Well that is bs too. Read the thread.

Miike · 03-02-2019 9:06pm

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I’ve never heard of a nurse been held accountable for anything in this country?

There is a public register for the findings of inquiries or cases of conviction via The Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland. It amazes me that grown adults fixate and formulate thought on these false dichotomies... "well if I didn't see it happening then it doesn't happen".

judeboy101 · 03-02-2019 9:06pm

Varadkar says nurses have reached the current deal and technically should have increments frozen, like teachers. BUT he won't as he doesn't want to anger them. https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0203/1027272-nurses/

Looks like nurses are untouchable.

Miike · 03-02-2019 9:07pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

Regarding the agency nurses and lack of continuity, is it not more likely that the same agency nurse turns up at the same hospital or ward regularly rather than a constant stream of span new agency nurses to that hospital/ward every day kind of thing ??

No because agency nurses choose when they work, not visa versa. One of the freedoms of working with an agency.

Miike · 03-02-2019 9:15pm

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

No because it has lower points than other degrees just like myself who went and got a trade because I didn’t get the points to do law.

Did you ever consider nursing? :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Flyingsnowball · 03-02-2019 9:18pm

Miike wrote: »

Did you ever consider nursing? :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

At the time it may have raised a few eyebrows down the local.

Goldengirl · 03-02-2019 9:24pm

1641 wrote: »

I wouldn't get too worked up about it -with many thousands of nurses and a few dozen or so Nursing Directors, their pay is going to add very little to the average anyway. But the point is - it is an across the board increase that the unions are fighting for - for everyone!

Of course , CNMs and CNSs must be included in the average. Just because you haven't reached this grade yet is irrelevant. It is part of the nurses progression ladder. And they all want the increase. (I take it that this strike is not just about getting a pay increase for you!)

This is not true. Many nurses never attain these grades but retire from senior staff nurse grade. . Also many nurses never get paid for a qualification or location allowance, so are dependant on weekend shifts , bank holidays and nights to bump their pay up to a reasonable amount.
My understanding is that the increases are being sought for staff nurses only as the others are promotional grades with different payscales.

Miike · 03-02-2019 9:54pm

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

At the time it may have raised a few eyebrows down the local.

I just stumbled across a thread started by you where someone insinuated that plumbers fix blocked toilets and undermined that role (your role). I have to be honest, it cracked me up. It's exactly what you're doing to Nursing despite the fact it's a honors science degree, you insist people choose it because a trade wasn't an option, like it's some Z list qualification people get because it's "easy".

Pull up a chair, I'm about to blow your mind:
I'm currently in a well paid seniorish, patient facing role within the HSE and I'm giving thought to going back to do a degree in Nursing next year (Applications filled out and submitted but I've not made my mind up totally). I'd enter a serious salary sacrifice and a huge change of pace. But... why? Because modern nursing is rewarding and you can make a huge change to someones health and well-being resulting in a huge change in their quality of life. It's diverse, it's complicated and it's a function of what you give to it.

Why am I telling you this? Because I want to give you a little insight into the plight you're submitting onto the nursing profession as has been submitted onto yours, in the desperate hope that it can open your eyes to the reality of what modern nursing REALLY is and not what you perceive it to be... gone are the days of nuns trotting around the ward executing the doctors will. Modern nursing is afforded with a lot of autonomy, a huge scope of practice and Irish nurses practice at a very high level by international standards. This needs to be recognised if there's any hope for people respect the profession instead of people disqualifying the role or qualification because they know no better.

03-02-2019 10:07pm

Goldengirl wrote: »

My understanding is that the increases are being sought for staff nurses only as the others are promotional grades with different payscales[/B].

Are you a nurse? Can you verify that the INMO are looking for an increase for staff nurses only ? That CNMs and CNSs are excluded from this? They have said (as reported in the press) that they want an across the board 12% increase. Please correct if not so - can you post an INMO statement or point to where it is?

Do you think there is even the slightest chance of an increase for staff nurses being acceptable without a corresponding increase for promotional grades ?

Goldengirl · 03-02-2019 10:17pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Not every degree is the same. A degree in engineering is not necessarily the same as a degree in social studies. Not all engineering degrees are the same for that matter.

Nurses do not have decision making responsibility in the same way as some of the other professions have. They do not diagnose or select treatment options.

They do a critical role but it is a misnomer to suggest that just because it is a degree that it equates to another role in which (I feel) there is generally* more responsibility held by a person in a particular role.

* the word generally is important here as there are exceptional cases but this strike is not about exceptional cases it is about an across the board increase.

No it takes more Leaving Cert points to get into General Nusing than Engineering , not that that makes a difference. A Bsc is a BSc .

hawkelady · 03-02-2019 10:23pm

1641 wrote: »

Are you a nurse? Can you verify that the INMO are looking for an increase for staff nurses only ? That CNMs and CNSs are excluded from this? They have said (as reported in the press) that they want an across the board 12% increase. Please correct if not so - can you post an INMO statement or point to where it is?

Do you think there is even the slightest chance of an increase for staff nurses being acceptable without a corresponding increase for promotional grades ?

AFAIK it’s an across the board increase. It’s all 40k nurses

Miike · 03-02-2019 10:24pm

hawkelady wrote: »

AFAIK it’s an across the board increase. It’s all 40k nurses

This is also my understanding.

Wheeliebin30 · 03-02-2019 10:29pm

Miike wrote: »

There is a public register for the findings of inquiries or cases of conviction via The Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland. It amazes me that grown adults fixate and formulate thought on these false dichotomies... "well if I didn't see it happening then it doesn't happen".

But nurses are angels.

03-02-2019 10:30pm

Miike wrote: »

I do not refute that agency staff are good at what they do. I'm simply asking do you think agency staff understand all the procedural intricacies associated with where they work or the company they work for and provide the exact same standard as a full time employee of 10+ years? If this was the case not one of us would have full time, permanent jobs in any sector.

That's not at all correct.
Many folk are determined to be full-time and literally couldn't cope with the concept of not being so long-term.
I don't think it takes 10 years to get to the standard you describe either. If it does the folks who take that long to perform are the problem.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Comments