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John Waters gone mad

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    #62
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but the guy seems to be genuinely honest lad, who speaks the truth how he sees it, and does his own thing. Good for him.

    He's done a lot of good work in relation to men's rights, which also deserves major respect.

    Irish people hate people who do better than them, and are in general incredibly conformist people who hate those who stand out, and love being told what to do without thinking for themselves. Waters you can say, unlike Una Mullaly or Tintin, is not like that at all.


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    #63
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I think having Waters championing men's rights probably set them back a few years.


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    #64
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    I think having Waters championing men's rights probably set them back a few years.

    Why do you say that on the day that’s in it?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #65
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    pumpkin4life wrote: »

    He's done a lot of good work in relation to men's rights, which also deserves major respect.
    Did he actually achieve anything in relation to men's rights?


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    #66
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Did he actually achieve anything in relation to men's rights?


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/unmarried-fathers-to-be-given-more-rights-under-new-laws-30994819.html

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #67
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/unmarried-fathers-to-be-given-more-rights-under-new-laws-30994819.html
    And what was his role in this?


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    #68
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Why do you say that on the day that’s in it?


    Anti abortion, anti-gay rights, pro Catholic Church - he's only about 10 years older than me, but he sounds more like my Dad, born in the 1920s.


    If you want a cause to be championed by a pre-Vatican II dinosaur who is out of touch with everything and spends what time he has in the public eye moaning about how those kids should get off his lawn, Waters is your man.


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    #69
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Why do you say that on the day that’s in it?


    Anti abortion, anti-gay rights, pro Catholic Church - he's only about 10 years older than me, but he sounds more like my Dad, born in the 1920s.


    If you want a cause to be championed by a pre-Vatican II dinosaur who is out of touch with everything and spends what time he has in the public eye moaning about how those kids should get off his lawn, Waters is your man.

    You are basing your opinion on his work for fathers rights on your attitude to his opinion on other issues.
    The opinions he holds are aligned to those of his faith, a post Vatican II Catholic Church.

    It’s interesting that you describe him as a dinosaur and out of touch because he was opposed to abortion. One must remember the anti abortion beliefs of the majority of politicians including Simon Harris up to 2 years ago until their Pauline conversion.
    So everyone whos opinions differ from yours is an out of touch dinosaur?

    There are dozens of male journalists who have never used their platform to support any aspect of men’s rights but constantly rail against the patriarchy and champion any female friendly cause.

    He highlighted the hypocrisy of politicians by rushing to claim credit for extending marriage rights to gay couples while consistently ignoring the plight of unmarried, separated and divorced fathers.

    The plight of these fathers was completely ignored by the majority of social justice warrior journalists because they view anything which is pro man to be regressive, old fashioned and contrary to their narrow liberal feminist beliefs.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #70
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Born in the wrong generation, I am reading an interesting book at the moment called The Circus Animals by James Plunkett it's not a great book or anything but it tries to capture the zeitgeist the tightening of the power of the Catholic church on Irish society versus the questioning that started in the 1960s, reading the book puts some of his ramblings and beliefs in to a context.

    It a longing for rules and permanency and certainties.


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    #71
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    You are basing your opinion on his work for fathers rights on your attitude to his opinion on other issues.
    The opinions he holds are aligned to those of his faith, a post Vatican II Catholic Church.

    It’s interesting that you describe him as a dinosaur and out of touch because he was opposed to abortion. One must remember the anti abortion beliefs of the majority of politicians including Simon Harris up to 2 years ago until their Pauline conversion.
    So everyone whos opinions differ from yours is an out of touch dinosaur?

    There are dozens of male journalists who have never used their platform to support any aspect of men’s rights but constantly rail against the patriarchy and champion any female friendly cause.

    He highlighted the hypocrisy of politicians by rushing to claim credit for extending marriage rights to gay couples while consistently ignoring the plight of unmarried, separated and divorced fathers.

    The plight of these fathers was completely ignored by the majority of social justice warrior journalists because they view anything which is pro man to be regressive, old fashioned and contrary to their narrow liberal feminist beliefs.


    How does opposing marriage rights for gay people help the plight of unmarried, separated and divorced fathers?


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    #72
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    You are basing your opinion on his work for fathers rights on your attitude to his opinion on other issues.

    No, I did not say one word about his work on fathers rights. I am saying that having those out-of-touch opinions on other issues means everyone under 60 is going to sigh and roll their eyes when Waters says anything.

    So no matter what you or I think of his attitude on fathers rights, he is a bad front man.


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    #73
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    How does opposing marriage rights for gay people help the plight of unmarried, separated and divorced fathers?

    Let us not forget that some fathers are gay, so a right to SSM is a right for fathers.

    But Waters doesn't care about those fathers, because he actually only cares about himself. His entire crusade is simply his own obsession with his ongoing quest for vengeance against the Great White Female that wounded him long ago.

    [Legal disclaimer: he is not to be referred to as homophobic, his stated opinion that them lads will destroy the very fabric of Irish society is totally non-homophobic, legally speaking, for the purposes of slander and libel law.]


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    #74
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    Irish people hate people who do better than them, and are in general incredibly conformist people who hate those who stand out, and love being told what to do without thinking for themselves. Waters you can say, unlike Una Mullaly or Tintin, is not like that at all.
    Gonna buck the trend so and think for myself. Which Irish people? The thing with these wild claims about Irish people (made by Irish people :D) is their crazy lack of nuance.
    Why would people hate Waters because he has done better than them? Has he?

    Isn't he the one yearning for people to be conformist?


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    #75
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    Duke Obedient Patio wrote: »
    Gonna buck the trend so and think for myself. Which Irish people? The thing with these wild claims about Irish people (made by Irish people :D) is their crazy lack of nuance.
    Why would people hate Waters because he has done better than them? Has he?

    Isn't he the one yearning for people to be conformist?

    The vast majority.

    We have four political parties and some independents that are all the same variation of very left wing. Unlike most other countries, there isn't any political opposition to this. Try having any dissenting opinion in an office workplace. It won't go well for you.

    People bitch about the Catholic Church and how it was in every part of Irish people's lives. That isn't true. It was that way because Irish people wanted it to be like that. We love being controlled and being told what to do. Just replace The Catholic Church with Progressivism and how wonderful the E.U is.

    And Waters is clearly not being conformist. Otherwise he would be manhating like Una Mullally and comparing Donald Trump to Hitler like Tintin is for 100 grand a year.

    Like Kevin Myers, I don't agree with him on very much, but you have to respect going against the grain like that.


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    #76
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Waters had some useful things to say about 30 odd years ago. He now comes across as a bigoted old reactionary right wing curmudgeon. But I suppose he does stick to his beliefs, however blinkered they may be.

    Being opposed to equal rights for LGBT people and women's reproductive health detracts hugely from his supposed work highlighting the lack of fathers' rights. The men's rights lobby in Ireland doesn't need John Waters as a spokesperson.

    Also, Waters is not a young man any more...not by a long shot. He is still stuck in a 1980s/early 90s timewarp. He is also exactly 20 years my senior.


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    #77
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    Like Kevin Myers, I don't agree with him on very much, but you have to respect going against the grain like that.

    No, I don't.

    Him and Myers have discovered that the more outrageous their columns get, the higher their profile gets. Going against the grain is not a brave move, it is just their brand.

    Until one day they go too far and get fired.


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    #78
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    The vast majority.

    We have four political parties and some independents that are all the same variation of very left wing. Unlike most other countries, there isn't any political opposition to this. Try having any dissenting opinion in an office workplace. It won't go well for you.

    People bitch about the Catholic Church and how it was in every part of Irish people's lives. That isn't true. It was that way because Irish people wanted it to be like that. We love being controlled and being told what to do. Just replace The Catholic Church with Progressivism and how wonderful the E.U is.

    And Waters is clearly not being conformist. Otherwise he would be manhating like Una Mullally and comparing Donald Trump to Hitler like Tintin is for 100 grand a year.

    Like Kevin Myers, I don't agree with him on very much, but you have to respect going against the grain like that.

    You'd have to be pretty right wing to see FF & FG as left wing.

    Also, the bolded bit. Lol.


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    #79
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    How does opposing marriage rights for gay people help the plight of unmarried, separated and divorced fathers?

    I said he claimed it was hypocritical for politicians to go for an easy win in extending marriage rights while failing to tackle the lack of rights of fathers.

    Politicians were quick to use terms like fairness, decency, compassion, equality when campaigning for marriage equality while treating fathers who look for the same with contempt.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #80
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I said he claimed it was hypocritical for politicians to go for an easy win in extending marriage rights while failing to tackle the lack of rights of fathers.

    Politicians were quick to use terms like fairness, decency, compassion, equality when campaigning for marriage equality while treating fathers who look for the same with contempt.


    an easy win? go away and ****e.


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    #81
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »
    A few snippets:

    "She had a beauty that suggested itself as emanating from an infinity within. She seemed to believe anything was possible and her smile convinced you, for an instant, that she was right. I wanted her dreams to come true."


    "I am crying, writing this. How can you cry for someone you've only once said hello to? Katy was the daughter of our dreams, in the sense that it was the dreams of her people that gave birth to what is tritely called her celebrity."


    "Driven by angelic recall, they plod on clay feet into the mire of three-dimensional reality. They do not know, are not conscious, that their appetites are infinitely greater than the world's capacity to satisfy them."
    "Kill everyone now! Condone first degree murder! Advocate cannibalism! Eat ****! Filth is my politics! Filth is my life!"


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    #82
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    I said he claimed it was hypocritical for politicians to go for an easy win in extending marriage rights while failing to tackle the lack of rights of fathers.

    Politicians were quick to use terms like fairness, decency, compassion, equality when campaigning for marriage equality while treating fathers who look for the same with contempt.

    The guy is nuts. He said that the black and tans were preferable to the Yes campaigners.
    https://gcn.ie/john-waters-compares-lgbt-campaigners-black-tans/


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    #83
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    No, I don't.

    Him and Myers have discovered that the more outrageous their columns get, the higher their profile gets. Going against the grain is not a brave move, it is just their brand.

    Until one day they go too far and get fired.

    It’s incredible that you label dissenting opinion expressed by journalists as some sort of artificial device of self promotion.

    Were liberal, left wing journalists who expressed opinions a generation or two ago, which differed from the consensus at the time merely engaged in self promotion or were they strongly held beliefs that they expressed despite public opprobrium?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #84
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    timthumbni wrote: »
    That is not the John Waters I thought you were talking about.

    The one I know thought eating dog **** would play well with the audience...


    He's the sane one of the pair


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    #85
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    pumpkin4life wrote: »
    The vast majority.

    We have four political parties and some independents that are all the same variation of very left wing. Unlike most other countries, there isn't any political opposition to this. Try having any dissenting opinion in an office workplace. It won't go well for you.

    People bitch about the Catholic Church and how it was in every part of Irish people's lives. That isn't true. It was that way because Irish people wanted it to be like that. We love being controlled and being told what to do. Just replace The Catholic Church with Progressivism and how wonderful the E.U is.

    And Waters is clearly not being conformist. Otherwise he would be manhating like Una Mullally and comparing Donald Trump to Hitler like Tintin is for 100 grand a year.

    Like Kevin Myers, I don't agree with him on very much, but you have to respect going against the grain like that.
    "We" this and that. Speak for yourself dude. There is non stop complaining about authority in this country. Utterly non stop. Even a sense of indignation from people for simply being expected to pay for a service they use.

    You said earlier that Irish people hate those who do well for themselves - surely we would be doffing our caps to them when we love to be subjugated so much... which is it? :D

    Look how much trouble Britain's economy will be in without the EU. It's not without its flaws but Ireland's economy would be screwed without it. That's not lickspittling, it's just a fact.

    FF and FG very left-wing? They are as centre as you could get.

    I know what you mean about Waters going against the grain of the Una and Fintan dominated narrative but he just wants everyone to be conformist in the conservative sense. To be the things you listed above (like wanting to be controlled by the Catholic church). And he's as negative and finger-pointing as they are.


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    #86
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

    This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

    They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

    Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

    Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

    He is many things but I thing he is less hypocritical than a certain high profile environmental journalist who regularly condemns meat eaters and commuters while driving a 3 litre 15 mile per gallon petrol Mercedes.

    Has he left the country yet like he said he would if it was a Yes vote in the 8th amendment referendum?

    I’d suggest he got nowhere on father’s rights because nobody took him seriously enough to listen. Whose fault is that? The movement needs more credible figureheads.


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    #87
    Thomyokk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭Thomyokk


    Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »
    Gone mad?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/dreams-die-with-death-of-katy-1.990174

    Dunno I thought it was nice

    He's prob the romantic type


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    #88
    monkeybutter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    super_furry wrote: »
    On a scale of one to crazy, John Waters fathered a child with Sinead O'Connor.

    He's always been pushing the limit.


    can you remember what mid 1980s/1990s sinead o'connor looked like?

    I would


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    #89
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

    There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

    The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

    Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

    I get a bit fed up of reading on boards.ie that people who lean liberal can’t think for themselves and haven’t arrived at their views after having a good think about it.

    Me personally, I watched a number of the marriage equality referendum debates with a genuinely open mind. I was really interested to hear about research, statistics, studies etc. that showed that it might not be the best idea to allow same sex marriage. I was interested in listening to the opinions of those who opposed same sex marriage. And, nothing, nothing that I heard convinced me. Nothing I heard stood up to logical scrutiny, to me at least. I used my noggin to arrive at the viewpoint that same-sex marriage was a good thing. And I can’t help that I think less of those who were unable to convince me.

    I can’t help but feel a tad resentful that people on the liberal spectrum are presented as utterly bovine folks who didn’t arrive at their views after deep thought whilst those who don’t hold liberal viewpoints are presented as courageous free-thinkers railing against this cadre of a liberal elite who have us all in the palm of their hands.

    Some people, no matter their views, are easily led. Liberals aren’t the only ones!


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    #90
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,321 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Someone was saying here that Fintan O'Toole was saying in his book that he viewed all pro Brexit voters as deranged. Well; John Waters himself is politically advocating for an Irish exit from the EU while being stringed along with the group's supposed leader Nigel Farage. You probably remember those meetings for Irexit that were held in the RDS in Dublin and reported by our media in recent months. There is even a thread made somewhere about Irexit on boards.ie. Would Fintan O'Toole actually say in front of John Water's face that he is deranged when they both write their own columns for the same newspaper?


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    #91
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,187 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    Someone was saying here that Fintan O'Toole was saying in his book that he viewed all pro Brexit voters as deranged. Well; John Waters himself is politically advocating for an Irish exit from the EU while being stringed along with Nigel Farage. You probably remember those meetings for Irexit that were held in the RDS in Dublin and reported by our media in recent months. There is even a thread made somewhere about Irexit on boards.ie. Would Fintan O'Toole actually say in front of John Water's face that he is deranged when they both write their own columns for the same newspaper?


    Waters doesn't write for the Times any more.


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