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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

15657596162102

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭Reuben1210


    flatty wrote: »
    Can anyone see this not going ahead?

    Nope


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Carol25 wrote: »
    What an obnoxious and arrogant bunch this anti bypass crowd are.
    First of all everyone around us travels at least 15kn per day. Myself and husband are 25km each way. NO-ONE I know choses this, no one choses to sit in their ‘comfy cars’ by choice to do a days work, they do to get to their jobs and their children to school as it is the only option. How dare any of you suggest otherwise! How dare any of you suggest we set off with young children on dark country roads to schools by foot and then what hitch a ride to work, on roads not fit for purpose!


    A lot to unpack there, so let's break it down into manageable chunks.

    Since you're referring to "dark country roads", it appears that you, your family and "everyone around" are resident in a rural area 15-25 km from Galway City, and presumably not in a village or town.

    Also, it appears that you live there not by choice ("NO-ONE I know chooses this") but somehow by chance or by circumstances outside your control.

    If you and "everyone around" you were born and reared in the countryside, and your parents (who you didn't choose) and their parents likewise, then why has your community developed to that size yet you have no street lighting and your children cannot walk or cycle to school? How has the community developed to that extent and yet has no public transport? Are there no local schools? No school transport?

    Why are the residences 15-25 km from employment? It's a rural area: what rural employment do the rural dwellers have? Farming has changed massively over the past 50 years and more. Many of us, myself included, are the children of people who left their small family farms and moved to the towns and cities because that's where the jobs and opportunities were. And the schools, and hospitals, and amenities, and maybe even public transport links.

    Or were you, and many if not most people around you, born in a town or in Galway City (perhaps of parents who were once farmers, as so many Irish people were many decades ago), and then you built or bought a house in a rural area, 15-25 km from employment, where the streets were not lit, and there were no schools, and your children could not walk anywhere? Because we know that's what literally hundreds of thousands of people have done all over Ireland, with County Galway being an especially notable example of such development.

    Even though the inexorable trend in Ireland, as elsewhere in the world, has been towards urbanisation, Ireland is an outlier in Europe with regard to the scale of "one-off" housing in the countryside, a misnomer for sure, since there were 450,000 of such houses built by 2010, and the trend didn't stop there. According to the Irish Planning Institute, "between 2010 and 2013 one-off units represented between 30% and 52% of all housing units granted permission each year". Almost half of all houses built as recently as 2016 were one-off and the ongoing settlement patterns "indicate a growing spread of commuter-led development in settlements" (Irish Planning Institute Submission on the National Planning Framework, 2017).

    In that context, what is a road that is "not fit for purpose"? Is it like one of those old country boreens through farmland where numerous "one-off" houses have been built, where the ancient hedgerows and stone walls have been ripped out, and where the road surface has been destroyed by constant traffic that the boreen was never designed for?

    Where is all that traffic heading? Why is a "bypass" relevant to it? And why do we feel in Ireland that we have "no choice" but to organise our housing, our schools, our employment and our transport in that way?

    And why can't the County Council fix the boreens, since they apparently have enough money to build a motorway -- in the city?


    Carol25 wrote: »
    Secondly, someone posted co2 emissions as a reason to oppose a badly needed piece of infrastructure, does this person realise cars are slowly but surely becoming electrically powered, and autonomous also. Or do they not believe in electricity either or those pesky noisy electric windmills and other renewable energy sources.

    Providing broadband to the hundreds of thousands of 'rural' dwellers in Ireland is hugely challenging in terms of costs and resources. Imagine trying to do the same with recharging infrastructure for electric cars.

    Electric cars won't address the problem of traffic congestion.

    Autonomous vehicles are pie in the sky. Do people really believe Ireland will soon see the day when autonomous vehicles in their tens of thousands will trundle down the perfectly surfaced boreens to join the free-flowing traffic on the shiny urban motorways?

    And why do rural dwellers regard wind generators as "pesky"?


    Carol25 wrote: »
    Thirdly, another poster seems to think people work in Eyre Square? Do they realise most factories are surrounding Galway City Centre, does s/he even know where they are located or what factories/industry is in Galway?

    Not sure what that's about, but an earlier post pointed out that 64500 people live within a 20 minute cycle of Eyre Square, the point being to illustrate that thousands of people in the city are driving short distances that could be shifted to other modes, unclogging the roads for essential traffic.

    Two key issues in Galway with regard to transport planning (and resultant car traffic congestion) is that there are large residential areas in the west and large employment areas in the east (plus some in the centre), along with a huge influx of county dwellers heading to destinations in Parkmore, Ballybrit, Ballybane, UHG, NUIG etc. Only 3% of car traffic is bypassing the city entirely, and 40% of all car trips don't cross the river. Shift a significant percentage of trips under 5-8 km to other modes, and trips over 8-10 km to public transport, and you achieve a significant reduction in traffic congestion.

    Carol25 wrote: »
    Fourthly, I just don’t believe ‘most people in Galway travel in cars less than 1km to destination’ - funny how there’s zero proof of this posted, because it isn’t true. Does this take into around the 200,000 people living in Galway County or just the people not working who could walk their children to school as they’ve no where to be besides?

    What was said was that "in the 2011 census, Galway was found to be the place in Ireland with the highest percentage of people who drive less than 1 kilometre."


    Carol25 wrote: »
    And finally, if any of you truly believed public transport was the solution, you’d be delighted the bypass was happening as it will help it develop proper, express routes to all major industrial estates. I don’t want my children emigrating for jobs that should be here just because of a bunch of arrogant and opinionated keyboard warriors that no nothing of the situation because they’re not living it.


    Of course we want proper public transport. It has never been tried in Galway. Where is the Bus Rapid Transit? Where is the orbital bus route for commuters? Where is the city-wide network of connected bus lanes and bus priority measures? Where are the bus shelters? Where is the enforcement of traffic regulations regarding access to bus lanes and bus stops? The fact is that Galway City Council has sat on its publicly-salaried and expensively-pensioned arse for decades while neglect public transport, because organising it is too much trouble and because they have been waiting since at least the mid-1990s for a "bypass" to rescue them from their own incompetence.

    By the way, when a ring road is built, who will use public transport, and why?

    And of course we're living in it. That's why we care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Reuben1210 wrote: »
    Nope

    Yep.


    marno21 wrote: »
    May .. which will become August .. then November

    This will drag on for a year by the time all the usual suspects have had their go at delaying the project.

    This could go on for much longer, as the various democratic processes take their due course.


    serfboard wrote: »
    As I've often said before: Ttake a city that's divided by a river. Put most of the employment on one side of the river (Mervue/Ballybrit/Parkmore), and most of the housing on the other (Newcastle/Rahoon/Salthill/Knocknacarra), provide an insufficient number of river crossings, and no direct public transport between them, and what do you think you're going to get?

    Oh yeah, and do this in the wettest, windiest city in the country, just in case people were thinking of cycling ...

    Why is has no orbital bus route been provided for decades? Why are the Council, other State agencies and various vested interests opposed to an orbital bus service?

    The weather argument is the standard excuse. There are already significant numbers of people cycling to work and education in Galway, just in case anybody was imagining that there weren't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Galway city is atrociously planned and the traffic gridlock is a legacy of that

    Galway very badly needs properly planned development...

    The ring road has a major role to play in this strategy. But given the gombeen idiots in the City Council and a construction industry unwilling to adopt decent residential design approaches, I don’t envisage any of this common sense development happening any time soon. :mad::(

    The ring road will seriously undermine the coherent anti-sprawl strategy that you say is needed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    serfboard wrote: »
    As I've often said before: Take a city that's divided by a river. Put most of the employment on one side of the river (Mervue/Ballybrit/Parkmore), and most of the housing on the other (Newcastle/Rahoon/Salthill/Knocknacarra), provide an insufficient number of river crossings, and no direct public transport between them, and what do you think you're going to get?

    You forgot the elephant in the room.
    Its the County Car Traffic that is the major cause of the Car traffic in Galway City. Places like Newcastle, Salthill and Rahoon actually have high* no's walking, cycling to work/school . Public transport is not great but could be improved.
    Agree on the direct public transport between East and West. That would certainly improve the public transport figures in these area's

    *High - in a Galway City/County Context


  • Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Carol25


    Wow firstly RIP rural Ireland with Ruhanna in charge. RIP all rural schools, parishes, communities, etc. We all need to up sticks and move into the overcrowded and over priced city market ASAP. Also are you seriously suggesting every single boreen in the country should have street lights? You do realise that would be terrible for the environment that you seem to be so concerned about.

    Secondly, you make the claim that autonomous cars are pie in the sky? You must not be informed well enough in this area as they’re just 15 years away max and do not need perfectly smooth roads do drive on. You mention overcrowded charge points as a reason to oppose electric cars. How will they be overcrowded when they’ll be at every filling station, you will be able to charge at your own house, and numerous other points besides.

    You mentioned urban sprawl being a reason to oppose the Galway bypass. The ring road under the current design, is running close to Galway city due to planning restrictions, it will not cause ‘sprawl’ to the degree you suggest.

    And finally, I want examples from people on here suggesting public transport alternatives, and maps to demonstrate how it would work on current roads. Bare in mind you won’t be able to knock off any lanes on a single road in existence as they’re barely wide enough for the vehicles currently on them.
    I’m curious to know, would you have built the M50 in Dublin or the newer M17 running north to south?

    P.S. I was being sarcastic when referring to windmillls being ‘pesky’, hence why it had inverted commas. What I meant was people oppose windmills and other forms of renewable energy but still want to burn up the ESB no questions asked.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    This could go on for much longer, as the various democratic processes take their due course.
    Very true - ABP is just one step in the process. Just look at Dublin City Council who look like they are going to challenge recent ABP decision re College Green.
    Can easily see this going to the High Court post any ABP decision.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Very true - ABP is just one step in the process. Just look at Dublin City Council who look like they are going to challenge recent ABP decision re College Green.
    Can easily see this going to the High Court post any ABP decision.

    Following article published today
    "
    One in ten planning decisions in Galway appealed last year
    "
    https://connachttribune.ie/one-in-ten-planning-decisions-in-galway-appealed-last-year-220/
    "
    The rate of appeals was 11.4%, which is higher that the national average of 7.3%.
    "


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 320 ✭✭WillieMason


    The M50 done wonders for development in Dublin.

    I would argue that road alone was primarily responsible for the economic boom of the 90's and early 2000's.

    It opened everything up.

    Very true.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Carol25 wrote: »

    1. Wow firstly RIP rural Ireland with Ruhanna in charge. RIP all rural schools, parishes, communities, etc. We all need to up sticks and move into the overcrowded and over priced city market ASAP.

    2. Also are you seriously suggesting every single boreen in the country should have street lights? You do realise that would be terrible for the environment that you seem to be so concerned about.

    3. Secondly, you make the claim that autonomous cars are pie in the sky? You must not be informed well enough in this area as they’re just 15 years away max and do not need perfectly smooth roads do drive on. You mention overcrowded charge points as a reason to oppose electric cars. How will they be overcrowded when they’ll be at every filling station, you will be able to charge at your own house, and numerous other points besides.

    4. You mentioned urban sprawl being a reason to oppose the Galway bypass. The ring road under the current design, is running close to Galway city due to planning restrictions, it will not cause ‘sprawl’ to the degree you suggest.

    5. And finally, I want examples from people on here suggesting public transport alternatives, and maps to demonstrate how it would work on current roads. Bare in mind you won’t be able to knock off any lanes on a single road in existence as they’re barely wide enough for the vehicles currently on them.
    I’m curious to know, would you have built the M50 in Dublin or the newer M17 running north to south?


    1. So which category of rural dweller are you? Seed, breed and generation? Or urban 'migrant' fleeing the city to get more bang for your buck in terms of square metres of house and land? It matters hugely in the context of the proposed ring road for Galway, because the recurring complaint from people resident in the county who commute to the city is that lack or roads is what is causing the problem, whereas in fact the real problem is our car-dependent society, a major part of which is our strange penchant for 'rurban' living.

    2. You were the one who mentioned "setting off with children on dark country roads". If the dark roads are not a problem for you, why mention them in that way? If there are thousands of people living in one-off houses down dark country roads that are "not fit for purpose" (your own words again) where their children cannot walk or cycle safely to school and where no public transport is available, to school or anywhere else, then we need to ask ourselves as a society how we have come to create such a situation as well as question why we need to spend several hundred million Euro to accommodate it by bulldozing a motorway through communities in Galway City, demolishing forty family homes in the process.

    3. Good luck with the autonomous cars on these roads. Maybe in 15 years' time Galway County Council will have autonomous trucks filling in the potholes?

    4. The selected route for the proposed ring road (RR) is based on a number of considerations. Firstly, the outer bypass failed because the plan contravened EU directives. The new road is intended to get around those restrictions. Secondly, documentation for the RR specifically refers to its intended purpose being to facilitate commuter traffic by car across the river. Only 3% of traffic through Galway is 'bypassable'. Thirdly, council officials have said that they want a road to facilitate car travel from suburbia ("if it's too far out nobody (ie the residents of suburbia) will use it"). Fourthly, the RR will be routed through currently undeveloped land, and both politicians and commercially interested parties have spoken about how it will "free up" or "open up" greenfield sites for new development. The anticipated development will be car-dependent, otherwise known as sprawl.

    5. If the existing roads in the city are wide enough for space-wasting private cars, then of course they're wide-enough for far more space-efficient buses and bikes. Can you identify any specific roads where "you won’t be able to knock off any lanes" for public transport, walking and cycling?


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Very true - ABP is just one step in the process. Just look at Dublin City Council who look like they are going to challenge recent ABP decision re College Green.
    Can easily see this going to the High Court post any ABP decision.

    It will be challenged all the way to Europe (and beyond, if such a thing exists!).

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/climate-change-ireland-failing-on-human-rights-obligations-says-un-1.3681485


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    The M50 done wonders for development in Dublin.

    I would argue that road alone was primarily responsible for the economic boom of the 90's and early 2000's.

    It opened everything up.



    Ah yes, the magnificent M50.
    • Imagined as a bypass of Dublin back in the 1970s-1980s
    • Became a magnet for uncontrolled car-dependent development in the 1990s
    • Generated vast swathes of sprawl outside the capital in the 1990s-early 2000s
    • Turned into a "car park" by mid-2000s
    • Widened and "upgraded" at a cost of nearly €1 billion 2006-2010
    • Became a "car park" again only seven years after the widening scheme was officially opened to great fanfare.

    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    marno21 wrote: »
    Can you provide a source for this statement please.

    Good question, thanks for asking.

    I keep meaning to get back to this, but then I run out of time.

    Will get to it in due course, because it's an issue of absolutely critical importance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Carol25


    Ruhanna do not use my posts and phrases out of context. I did not state country roads were not fit for purpose, I was referring to the city roads, following drop off to school. You made the claim that people were choosing to travel in their ‘comfy’ cars for less that 1km on a single journey each day and I refuted that claim.
    Out of interest, as 190,000 people currently live in County Galway, how would you go about transplanting people and families from the county to the City, and at what cost? Would you consider apartments suitable for families to live in as costs of property in the city are extremely high and would rise due to demand if everyone from County Galway was required to move in.
    What would the social implications be of such a move?
    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport and yet more idealistic talk. Cars ‘wasting’ space on the roads currently are getting to people to work, school, etc. How and what roads/lanes would you suddenly shut down? Currently if there’s when a minor change even with traffic light timings, there are miles and miles of tailbacks. This happened frequently last year and this year.
    Would using public transport be mandatory in your idealistic City?
    My suggestion, plan a new urban centre and submit it to government. It’s ridiculous that people actually use an idealistic objective to claim a counter argument for a city and county crying for more infrastructure to get across the river and have been for years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,934 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Ruhanna wrote: »


    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!

    Couldn't agree more.

    The sooner it starts construction the better.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 320 ✭✭WillieMason


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    Ah yes, the magnificent M50.
    • Imagined as a bypass of Dublin back in the 1970s-1980s
    • Became a magnet for uncontrolled car-dependent development in the 1990s
    • Generated vast swathes of sprawl outside the capital in the 1990s-early 2000s
    • Turned into a "car park" by mid-2000s
    • Widened and "upgraded" at a cost of nearly €1 billion 2006-2010
    • Became a "car park" again only seven years after the widening scheme was officially opened to great fanfare.

    Yes, great example to follow. Bring it on!

    Lol jesus how many cars hit you in the past? You really hate cars and roads lol Dublin is really small compared to other capital cities not some sprawling mess reaching as far as donegal.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    mod: Cut the personal abuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Carol25 wrote: »
    Ruhanna do not use my posts and phrases out of context. I did not state country roads were not fit for purpose, I was referring to the city roads, following drop off to school.

    You made the claim that people were choosing to travel in their ‘comfy’ cars for less that 1km on a single journey each day and I refuted that claim.

    Out of interest, as 190,000 people currently live in County Galway, how would you go about transplanting people and families from the county to the City, and at what cost? Would you consider apartments suitable for families to live in as costs of property in the city are extremely high and would rise due to demand if everyone from County Galway was required to move in.

    What would the social implications be of such a move?

    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport and yet more idealistic talk. Cars ‘wasting’ space on the roads currently are getting to people to work, school, etc.

    How and what roads/lanes would you suddenly shut down?

    Currently if there’s when a minor change even with traffic light timings, there are miles and miles of tailbacks. This happened frequently last year and this year.

    Would using public transport be mandatory in your idealistic City?

    My suggestion, plan a new urban centre and submit it to government. It’s ridiculous that people actually use an idealistic objective to claim a counter argument for a city and county crying for more infrastructure to get across the river and have been for years.

    What is the primary purpose of the city's roads? Moving county dwellers in their driver-only cars from A to B and back? Because the rurban commuter cohort, thanks to Galway County Council's stupid "planning" policies over decades, are huge contributors to the city's traffic congestion. You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

    Are you saying modern cars are not comfortable? What are you driving, a Lada? You didn't refute anything with regard to short distance driving in Galway. The fact remains, because the data have been there for years, that a significant proportion of journeys in the city are over short distances. The thousands of county drivers entering the city after their long drives from rurban developments spread over a very large commuter catchment meet thousands of city drivers travelling relatively short distances and the resultant mess is called "permanent gridlock" or some such. It's this chaotic and unsustainable mosaic of travel patterns that gives rise to demand for a so-called "bypass", which may ease congestion in the short term but which will not fix the core problems in the long term and will probably make things worse (see the story of the M50).

    Our stupid and unsustainable planning policies have led to many thousands of people transplanting themselves to the countryside, many of whom moved out to have "an urban-type home while avoiding the cost of city living" as mentioned in a link posted earlier. Can they be transplanted back? Unlikely. Our "planning" policies over decades have gifted us a legacy of unsustainable transport and infrastructure problems that will last for decades more. An urban motorway costing hundreds of millions of Euro is probably only the start of it.

    Private cars, regardless of trip purpose, are massively inefficient. If you want to make the worst possible use of finite space, then the private car is the ideal way to do it.

    fxclrt.jpg

    Look at the picture above. Is either lane "shut down"? Which mode of transport illustrates the most efficient use of available resources?

    A better question might be: what are the social implications of our rurban settlement patterns, which is one major source of the seemingly insatiable demand for more road construction?

    As stated earlier, probably more than once, 40% of car trips don't cross the river at all. Shifting a chunk of those trips to modes other than massively space-inefficient single-occupant private cars would go a long way to relieving congestion on the river crossings. Likewise, eliminating cross-river trips (such as with Park & Ride, and making much more efficient use of bridges (such as by mode-shifting to public transport especially) would also make much better use of existing infrastructure at much lower cost.

    The "miles and miles of tailbacks" are primarily composed of single-occupant cars (90% in Parkmore, according to a Council engineer).

    Mandatory? Do you have some sort of ideological objection to transport planning and measures to control private car use?

    Speaking of which, do you think that the County Council's construction of a motorway within the City Council's administrative area should be mandatory, to the extent that 40 family homes should be demolished, the relative tranquility of numerous other homes destroyed or diminished, and the property of an even larger group compulsorily acquired, divided or restricted, just so that county car commuters can drive faster?


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Couldn't agree more.

    The sooner it starts construction the better.


    Lead, horse, water etc.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we get back on topic. General discussion of tax, motor tax, sprawl, etc are off topic. Discussion on whether Galway Ring road is needed should be put in that thread. Off topic stuff will be moved or deleted depending on whether there is a thread for it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,166 ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    Last Saturday, I drove from Athenry to Terryland and back. It was interesting because the traffic was not too bad, but I noticed the inordinate delay at the various traffic lights on the four or so junctions. They are complex and use sequencing that is very inefficient and give rise to tailbacks on the major route. There is also the Coolagh roundabout which also gives rise to problems.

    Now, I am not a traffic engineer, but looking at the map, it would appear to me there is plenty of space available to widen the N6 (Bothar Na dTreabh) to allow extra lanes, slip roads and bus lanes where appropriate. The main aim should be to make the N6 free flow as much as possible, and to widen or duplicate the Centenial bridge, again there is space to do so.

    Bus transport along the N6 is notable by its absence. Park and rides are also absent. Do the small things first.

    Bothar na dTreach could possibly be widened, which would create additional space for bus and cycle lane infrastructure, if you're not going to assign existing lanes for those, which IMO should be the first order of business. You can't widen/duplicate the Quin bridge, however, without taking out significant property interests on the western side, and even if you did, you're still funnelling additional traffic quicker into the bottleneck that is Seamus Quirke Road, which cannot be widened further. Even if you assumed a lot of that traffic is heading for the N59, there is no space for slip roads to create a free flow junction, and traffic will still grind to a halt and back up to Terryland.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    Can be you more specific (and prescriptive) regarding what is "on topic" in this thread?

    For example, what would be an "on topic" response to your post below?

    I am guilty of going off-topic myself. I intend to sort this out when I get time.

    When I sort it out, I will post specific guidelines. I will try and do so over he wekend.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    MOD: Totally off topic posts deleted.

    Sam Russell has stated that he will address this issue when he gets a chance. I don't see any need for speculation of what he plans to do. Lets leave it for a while and get back to the topic at hand


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,722 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Carol25 wrote: »
    As I suspected you’re offering no practical solution re public transport
    If you care to search and read through this and other threads posted on boards over the years about traffic in Galway you will find plenty of practical solutions.

    For instance there is a thread "'Luas on Wheels' bus service for Galway", where the following is posted (admittedly by me :o):
    • provide more bus services and have them go where people want (like for example, Knocknacarra->Ballybrit)
    • have certain streets bus-only (like what's happening in Dublin and Cork).
    • provide more Bus Lanes (me, I'd take take two lanes of the bridge and Bothar Na dTreabh)
    • provide more Park N' Rides on the city's outskirts
    • increase the number of cycle lanes.
    It is not a uniquely Irish thing to have people move out of cities to find cheaper or larger/more suitable housing.

    However, when other countries do this, planning for non-farm dwellings is only allowed in and around existing small towns, so that a critical mass can develop in the towns and so that services can then be provided to those towns, such as bus or rail transport back into the cities.

    Galway County in particular, is woefully badly unplanned - houses scattered about the countryside like confetti, making people car-dependent, which then do not allow the country towns to grow sufficiently so that services can be provided.

    This stuff is all basic planning, and Galway County is probably the best example of how not to do it.

    I've often said that being a planner in Ireland must be one of the most frustrating jobs - you go to college and learn how things should be done, and then you come out into the real world and see that destroyed by gombeen politicians - for a lot of politicians spend a lot of their time "representing constituents" (as Michael Lowry put it) which is also known as trying to get planning permission for one-off housing.

    You simply cannot choose to live in a one-off house in the countryside and then complain about the lack of services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭Ruhanna


    Galway Bus Connect project will not have an Orbital route so there is no solution to cross city traffic in the plans at all

    So in case of Galway a bypass is needed as public transport is not even an option for getting "around" the city


    The purpose of the Galway Transport Strategy is to justify a developer-friendly decision made offline elsewhere, and to tick a bunch of IROPI boxes. Policy-based evidence-making while you wait.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    Ruhanna wrote: »
    The purpose of the Galway Transport Strategy is to justify a developer-friendly decision made offline elsewhere, and to tick a bunch of IROPI boxes. Policy-based evidence-making while you wait.

    Very little media or talk of this project one way or the other, Is it likely to sail through planning fairly handily ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    youngrun wrote: »
    Very little media or talk of this project one way or the other, Is it likely to sail through planning fairly handily ?

    Who knows, knowing Galway City Council they will probably want to CPO and demolish houses in the older parts of Galway City like Woodquay to put in Bus Lanes.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This has all the hallmarks of a dogged dragged out mess. I hope I'm wrong.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An Taisce, Derrick Hambleton is Chairman of An Taisce Galway, getting a platform through the Connacht Tribune

    https://connachttribune.ie/tackle-galways-congestion-by-building-city-houses-300/

    Tackle Galway’s congestion by building city houses

    Ever-growing congestion on Galway City’s roads over recent years has led many commentators to argue strongly for more new construction – to advocate an increase in the capacity on city roads commuter routes and for an N6 Outer Bypass, the latter again with An Bord Pleanála.

    The bypass was the option first advocated by Buchanan & Partners more than 20 years ago, until a judgement in the European Courts of Justice in 2015 put a halt to that particular whizz of a plan.

    Unfortunately for Irish taxpayers, the promoters of this ‘roads-based solution’ did not heed the warning signs.

    So even now, ‘the let’s just have more roads as a solution’ lobby are again pushing for a new alternative, which is to be an expensive €650m, now so-called Inner Ring Road, which has again been submitted for consideration by the now under-resourced Planning Board!

    This environmentally and socially damaging project simply cannot be justified, with 35% of car traffic actually crossing the river, only 3% of that traffic wanting to bypass the city.

    Yet I do believe that our main commuter routes do need upgrading. It is unarguable that the N59, N83, R339 and R338 – which carry so much traffic into the city from county areas – have not been upgraded in years!

    However, we need to remember that the Paris Agreement on climate change now has legal effect.

    Then, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), published an alarming special report, it came with both good news and bad for Galway. The good news is that the carbon budget for staying under 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming is larger than we thought, so we have a bit more time to act. The bad news is that the consequences of overshooting that threshold are very, very bad.

    The catastrophes that we once believed would be triggered by only 2 degrees of warming are likely to occur at this lower threshold, including widespread collapse of food yields and extreme levels of human displacement.

    For example, people may soon have to be moved away from living in areas such as in Galway City that are likely to flood. We can all remember the trauma caused to farming families and city residents from the flooding in November 2009, in January 2014, November 2015 and again in February 2018.

    The design, construction and management of roads, parking and other related facilities as well as the design and regulation of vehicles is known to cause significant damage to forests, prairies, streams and wetlands.

    Besides the direct habitat loss due to the road itself, and the road-kill of animal species, roads alter water-flow patterns, increase noise, water, and air pollution, and create disturbance that alters the species composition of nearby vegetation, thereby reducing habitat for local native animals, and act as barriers to animal movements.

    In the case of the N6 Ring Road, it would mean the displacement of 44 families from their homes with a further 10 houses rendered uninhabitable, as well as the demolition of two industrial properties and the loss of two industrial complexes.

    Yet the roads transport lobby, which accounts for in excess of 19.8% of this pollution, presses on with more of their unsustainable plans.

    Some would argue that the building of another new motorway will have the effect of promoting more car use, not less. This will be Galway’s continuing contribution to species extinction, and exacerbates our own contribution to climate change.

    Unfortunately, the number of cars using a spiders web of commuter routes into the city is ultimately proportional to the capacity of the network. Building yet more roads simply makes it possible for more cars to be poured into any chosen route, which itself encourages more people to live in less expensive locations outside of Galway City, but from where a daily commute is required. Eventually, when capacity is reached, people will just start clamouring again for yet more new roads (the M50 effect).

    This intensity of car use has been building in Galway since the early 80s, when the last new bridge was built crossing the River Corrib, (the 1985 Quincentenary Bridge).

    The populations of large towns in counties within an hour’s drive of Galway have also increased far more rapidly over the past two decades than in almost any other, with yet more external population growth predicted before 2040, we are told.

    The only sustainable long-term solution to congestion, and to reduce use of cars, is for people to live close enough to their place of work that they can either walk, cycle or avail of high-frequency public transport.

    Yet the IDA seem powerless to promote enough new industry into county areas, and Galway city centre itself has seen very few houses built in recent times, as compared to those larger numbers being constructed in all areas out into the county.

    In large peripheral areas such as we have in county Galway where housing is highly dispersed, it is simply not possible to effectively locate employment to facilitate shorter commutes. The only viable solution is to concentrate new housing nearer to growing business centres, hence in Galway City we are to have workers living in Ardaun, perhaps servicing Parkmore. But when construction is actually going to begin there, no one yet knows?

    There is still plenty of vacant land available within Galway City itself. I was told in 2014 that undeveloped land zoned for residential use in the Galway City Development Plan 2011-2017 is c299 hectares (739 acres), but for various reasons it has never been made available for construction.

    Landowners and developers frequently argue, with little justification that high costs mean it is not possible to service land, build according to strict conditions and still provide affordable homes of the type that families want to live in. In the meantime, it has remained viable to service land and construct homes in more distant locations – but only as long as the State continues to foot the bill for the enhanced road network that makes living in out of the way areas feasible.

    Then, as we are constantly being told by opponents of light rail, a Gluas-type tram transit in Galway is unachievable, whereas all over Europe governments have learned that ‘higher density’ housing makes tram systems economically viable. As the premium now being charged on houses built near the Luas in Dublin clearly shows.

    The luckless N6 Ring Road application is again submitted to An Bord Pleanala. Meanwhile Ceannt Station, the harbour lands and at Dyke Road sites are all listed for regeneration, each having been subject to much speculation since 2002, when potential for port relocation first became news.

    Brendan McGrath, City Council Chief Executive, recently said when talking about the appointment of consultants to draw up a ‘Public Realm Strategy’. Much will depend on the outcome of plans to extend the Port and the development of the N6 Ring Road, as the bypass is now called.

    We are left to wonder when we will see more of the housing the city needs actually built? The Government’s new National Regeneration and Development Agency (NRDA) and even newer LDA, Land Development Agency, are already sniffing around the city with the notion of buying lands for housing on public lands.

    The current congestion problems being experienced in Galway are what results when the State leaves the development of homes to the private market. While the Government is left to take care of funding the building of roads to service them, the costs to the State have just been shifted from the left pocket to the right, while the long-term commuting problems of all who live in scattered development have multiplied.

    The State’s new Land Development Agency should intervene, to allow more people live within the newly extended ‘Galway Metropolitan Area’, which is being extended to include Barna and Oranmore.

    Perhaps use regeneration lands available at Ceannt Station as well as on Galway Port’s underutilised lands, instead of forcing workers into unsustainable commutes, with many workers still having to drive in from surrounding counties.

    The funding for subsidies to construct housing, to improve public transport such as providing Light Rail or, to provide better public transport services to activate potential building land, could easily be provided by diverting the vast sums of money that would otherwise be spent on building and maintaining this environmentally damaging, additional N6 Ring Road space.

    This I believe is the most sustainable solution, and one that in the long term will give the best quality of life option for the largest number of people living in Galway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    That's a great article DaCor, thanks for posting. He writes very well and makes a lot of sense, this is probably not the thread for it but €650m would easily get you a proper Luas line and multiple P&R points, would solve the traffic problem and attract development close to the stations and therefore closer to the city


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dats me wrote: »
    That's a great article DaCor, thanks for posting. He writes very well and makes a lot of sense, this is probably not the thread for it but €650m would easily get you a proper Luas line and multiple P&R points, would solve the traffic problem and attract development close to the stations and therefore closer to the city

    In no way shape or form will a luas line fix Galway’s problems. Also, will cost a buttload more than most realise for the service provided


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    An Taisce, Derrick Hambleton is Chairman of An Taisce Galway, getting a platform through the Connacht Tribune

    https://connachttribune.ie/tackle-galways-congestion-by-building-city-houses-300/

    Is this the same An Taisce which shoots done any development over 6 stories which is what this country is crying out for at its urban centres?


  • Registered Users Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Ashleigh1986


    Take it from someone driving in galway city for past 20 years .
    Someone from the city .
    All the roundabouts need to be taken out of the city .
    They need to be replaced by cctv operated traffic lights .
    These lights need to be manned from 7am to 10 am
    and 4pm to 7pm .
    Also no right turns at traffic lights when vehicles can't go by in their inner.
    Also back the west / mill street / needs to be turned into a one way sytem.
    Bus lane all along both sides of the tuam road to parkmore from monaghans.
    One way system reintroduced on Lough atalia/ college road .
    The bottom 2 suggestions are soon to be done .


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The bottom 2 suggestions are soon to be done .

    So are all the others, depending on your definition of "soon"


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,321 ✭✭✭m17


    The galway outer bypass in 2025
    hHOWfh6.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    What is the tunnel going under in this image?

    Is that going to be the ballybrit race course?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    Looks pretty cool... Is there a visual of the whole thing ? 2025 might be stretching it but I would expect it will get a go ahead


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 smalldig


    256 objections from land and property owners against city ring road plan
    By Our Reporter - January 28, 2019
    Share on Facebook Tweet on Twitter


    Galway Bay fm newsroom – 256 objections have been made by affected land or property owners subject to compulsory acquisition plans as part of the proposed city ringroad design.
    The 650 million euro road project would run from Barna across to the Headford Road and Ballybrit with a new bridge and viaduct across the River Corrib.
    The 256 objections have been made by affected land or property owners who would be subject to the compulsory acquisition on the motorway and/or protected road scheme.
    An additional 98 submissions have been received on the proposed road development overall.
    An oral hearing is expected to take place early this year.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Thats not bad

    There would be thousands of objections if houses have to be demolished among main streets (think woodquay) in order to build bus+bicycle lanes that many here dream about but refuse to acknowledge that city streets are too narrow near city centre

    Really?
    Anyhow simpler solution would be to remove on street car parking and remove priority from private cars in the Core City Center. Simple.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Really?
    Anyhow simpler solution would be to remove on street car parking and remove priority from private cars in the Core City Center. Simple.

    Well if only Galway was planned as a denser settlement in the 60s/70s instead of naval gazing, bead rattling and Britain aping, which was all this state was capable of at the time, but sure what's done is done. Motorway/HQDC bypass is probably overkill on the roads front, the population of Conemara is only about 30,000 and Galway is already bypassed by the Quincentennial.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Galway is already bypassed by the Quincentennial.

    Anyone spouting this clearly has no clue of the current situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Anyone spouting this clearly has no clue of the current situation.

    I know Galway well, it's pretty small, horrendous traffic, most employment is east of the River, large unplanned settlement to the west, overall poor layout. That' Galway's transport situation in a nutshell.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I know Galway well, it's pretty small, horrendous traffic, most employment is east of the River, large unplanned settlement to the west, overall poor layout. That' Galway's transport situation in a nutshell.

    If the Bothar Na Treadbh was freeflow with proper bridges and lilo junctions, then much of the problems would disappear - except that the Corrib Quintincentennial Bridge would need either widening for PT and cycles, or a second bridge over to Newcastle - perhaps grabbing some UCG land.

    Of course, that would cost a lot less than the €600 million or so that the new road will cost, which might leave enough for a PT system, a few P&R parks, etc. Maybe even a Luas line or two, or a Athenry to Galway commuter two track rail.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Of course, that would cost a lot less than the €600 million or so that the new road will cost, which might leave enough for a PT system, a few P&R parks, etc. Maybe even a Luas line or two, or a Athenry to Galway commuter two track rail.

    PT should be the primary focus, adding a new road is just going to add more cars. Throwing more roads at an urban traffic problem and hoping for the best is a 1960s fallacy, doesn't work, never worked, won't work in the future and it costs too much. Once BusConnects starts and a proper cycling network is built a new motorway will be rendered pointless. There's only 30,000 people in Connemara and little or no bulky industries. A motorway is overkill to connect so few people to the national road network.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭Reuben1210


    cgcsb wrote: »
    PT should be the primary focus, adding a new road is just going to add more cars. Throwing more roads at an urban traffic problem and hoping for the best is a 1960s fallacy, doesn't work, never worked, won't work in the future and it costs too much. Once BusConnects starts and a proper cycling network is built a new motorway will be rendered pointless. There's only 30,000 people in Connemara and little or no bulky industries. A motorway is overkill to connect so few people to the national road network.

    That may be so, but you have to look to the future. If this city is going to rival Dublin in any way in terms of attracting employment and thus residents, it needs top quality infrastructure, of which a ring-road is a part. Right now, it may look like overkill, but if it acts as a catalyst for growth and development, it will be a hugely worthwhile investment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Reuben1210 wrote: »
    That may be so, but you have to look to the future. If this city is going to rival Dublin in any way in terms of attracting employment and thus residents, it needs top quality infrastructure, of which a ring-road is a part. Right now, it may look like overkill, but if it acts as a catalyst for growth and development, it will be a hugely worthwhile investment.

    Motorways prevent development close to them legally.
    Galway will never 'rival Dublin'
    The most effective way of planning for Galway's future growth is ensuring the availability and attractiveness of sustainable transport modes.
    Galway has an immediate mobility problem that can be solved in a few months with a tenth the investment a motorway bypass requires by investing small amounts into bus priority.
    Motorways attract cars.
    We're going to miss our 2020 targets as it stands.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There's a separate thread for discussing the merits of the project, good and bad.

    https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057927925/3/#post109212496


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭Reuben1210


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Motorways prevent development close to them legally.
    Galway will never 'rival Dublin'
    The most effective way of planning for Galway's future growth is ensuring the availability and attractiveness of sustainable transport modes.
    Galway has an immediate mobility problem that can be solved in a few months with a tenth the investment a motorway bypass requires by investing small amounts into bus priority.
    Motorways attract cars.
    We're going to miss our 2020 targets as it stands.

    Let's take this onto the suggested thread then if you want?


  • Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Carol25


    Try and not feed the trolls re Galway bypass. They either don’t live in the city or don’t care about the wellbeing of its residents.
    The reality is Galway needs an extra bridge at the very least to help it function to sustainable levels. Traffic and bottleneck problems have cost the city and commuter areas jobs and more importantly lives, I’ve experienced this first hand.
    P.s. I don’t want to see an argument re public transport in response to this post as no one user seems to be able to give a single concrete example of how to solve the problem, plus sustain and grow jobs, and also allow for new public transport corridors within given infrastructure. If the bypass was to be built, at least infrastructure would be in place to develop public transport routes.


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