M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

antoobrien

Zzippy wrote: »

Do you think all the stockbrokers and hedge fund managers in London drive to their jobs?

No, they have chauffeurs.

dubhthach

Folks stay on topic of the scheme, I couldn't care less if ye have a chauffeur or not.

spacetweek

veryangryman wrote: »

Most of these jobs are good high end, highly paid positions and thus most will drive to them regardless of PT options. I drive due to having such a position. It nice to be able to choose between a nice new clean aircon car and the general public. Even nicer if there is a Dual Carriageway that i can use to get to work.

This is false logic. I work in city centre Dublin and in my company all our jobs are well paid, but nearly everyone uses PT or cycles to work.

The ability to drive as a symbol of wealth or status is false because driving inevitably leads to sitting in congestion which leads to stress. Leaving the car out of it is a symbol of empowerment, not poverty.

If that road was built, it's likely that it would indeed provide a clear run to work for at least the first year or so. After that, though, it would become a victim of its own popularity and the experience would worsen.

spacetweek

monument wrote: »

Or the answer is a path/s for walking and cycling segragated from but alongside the planned road? For the bridge section at least?

But this still ignores the fact that pedestrians and cyclists don't actually want to follow the route the road is taking. The road is deliberately avoiding built-up areas; the people do want to go to those.

Carawaystick

spacetweek wrote: »

This is false logic. I work in city centre Dublin and in my company all our jobs are well paid, but nearly everyone uses PT or cycles to work.

If you worked in Blanch or other such place, badly or not at all served by public transport, on the edge of the city do you think it'd be the same?

veryangryman

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you worked in Blanch or other such place, badly or not at all served by public transport, on the edge of the city do you think it'd be the same?

A much better comparison.

Iwannahurl

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you worked in Blanch or other such place, badly or not at all served by public transport, on the edge of the city do you think it'd be the same?

The point is that, in Galway, the "ten thousand jobs" apparently justify a €500 million "bypass". It used to be €300 million, for a couple of years or so until the proposal went belly up. €14 million was wasted on a project which was doomed to fail, a level of spending on a single road project higher than any single public transport project in the city, that I can recall anyway. And that was just on the planning phase.

Why is that, do you think? Why are "ten thousand jobs" in one location important enough to revisit a road project on which €14 million was already wasted and which now has a price tag of half a billion, but not important enough for any major investment in public transport for the past two decades?

Genuine question, by the way. I'm beginning to think there's an ideological reason, but perhaps I'm being too cynical, so I'd like to hear other rational explanations first.

dubhthach

The original proposal didn't include two tunnels, these alone will probably contribute at least 100-150 million to the cost of the project

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm beginning to think there's an ideological reason, but perhaps I'm being too cynical, so I'd like to hear other rational explanations first.

There is indeed an ideological reason.

The rejection of the original route on the grounds of saving the lesser-spotted bog louse is the reason for the cost increase.

Lets not make it even more expensive by more nonsensical opposition.

Public transport to a suburban location from another suburb, it doesn't necessarily make sense; this road combines that role and the important bypass function.

Currently there is a debate about tolling the M50 to reduce traffic on it and divert people to public transport. Asked about people living in Tallaght and working in Sandyford (and visa versa) one public transport advocate in the local free-sheet supported the tolling and said that people could do the Tallaght-Sandyford commute by taking the green line into the city and the red line to Tallaght.

Which would add two hours and €10 per day to the M50 option.

That someone could actually make such an insane proposal tells us a lot about the ideological motivation (and rationality) of many anti-car fanatics.

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

The original proposal didn't include two tunnels, these alone will probably contribute at least 100-150 million to the cost of the project

The original proposal wasn't a "Galway City Transport Project" which this one supposedly is.

So are we to conclude that €350-400 million is for the rest of the road, along with new public transport services and infrastructure for walking and cycling? Or will that be extra? So is the overall budget likely to be, say, €700-800 million?

And what's your own opinion on the "ten thousand jobs" angle?

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Public transport to a suburban location from another suburb, it doesn't necessarily make sense; this road combines that role and the important bypass function.

It's public transport from a suburban residential location to an area with "ten thousand jobs". Why would that not make sense?

How does an expressway for car commuters include a public transport function?

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The original proposal wasn't a "Galway City Transport Project" which this one supposedly is.

"You say Potato, I say Puh-tato". The scheme is around the same length as the original one, the key differences obviously including having to put in two sections of twin-bore tunnels, these will add heavily to cost of building the scheme.

Other that a couple of maps there are no details of what is supposed to be included in any costing, so there's no guarantee as far as I can see that anything will be spent on anything but the road element of the project.

As for proposed exit/entrance at Parkmore I don't think it's good idea based on distance between junctions, the original outer bypass project for example didn't have a junction on current N17.

Carawaystick

Iwannahurl wrote: »

?

How does an expressway for car commuters include a public transport function?

Have you travelled to Dublin recently?
Or to Limerick?
the motorway imporovemnets have made it much quicker and cheaper for public transport there from Galway. When the M18 is finished, it'll be quicker still to Limerick.

Iwannahurl

Carawaystick wrote: »

Have you travelled to Dublin recently?
Or to Limerick?
the motorway imporovemnets have made it much quicker and cheaper for public transport there from Galway. When the M18 is finished, it'll be quicker still to Limerick.

This discussion is about the N6 Galway City Transport project, which is self-evidently focused mainly on commuter travel in and to the city.

dubhthach wrote: »

there's no guarantee as far as I can see that anything will be spent on anything but the road element of the project.

That would be putting it mildly, is my guess. And this is my difficulty, because I don't understand how "ten thousand jobs" can justify one but not the other. There must be a rationale, if not an explicit one then it must be implicit.

BastardFace

veryangryman wrote: »

Most of these jobs are good high end, highly paid positions and thus most will drive to them regardless of PT options. I drive due to having such a position. It nice to be able to choose between a nice new clean aircon car and the general public. Even nicer if there is a Dual Carriageway that i can use to get to work.

Sorry to derail, but this smug attitude is not nice. Also you do in your bollocks have a highly paid position. <snip> doesn't pay engineers highly!

(Source: I worked in <snip> for 9 years and am well aware what average engineer salary is there, and know who you are in there!)

Schadenfreudia

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This discussion is about the N6 Galway City Transport project, which is self-evidently focused mainly on commuter travel in and to the city.

It is commonly referred to as the Galway Bypass, as was its defunct predecessor. So it serves, at the very least, a second very important function.

If there are 10,000 commuters likely between the west of the city and Ballybrit (I have no idea if that's true) then it seems inevitable that frequent bus services will evolve to cope for much of it and use the new road.

Certainly if frequent bus routes used the M50 to connect major suburbs in Dublin they would be used - but Dublin bus seems to see its role as connecting everything to the centre - which no longer reflects real commuter patterns.

Suburb to suburb transport, road or rail (other than those joined by radial routes) is terrible to non-existent in Dublin.

How good are the Bus Eireann inter-suburban routes bypassing the city centre in Galway?

No good I'd imagine.

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

This discussion is about the N6 Galway City Transport project, which is self-evidently focused mainly on commuter travel in and to the city.

This thread is about an infrastructural road project, commuter traffic which may used such a road is somewhat relevant but it's not the sole or most important aspect to this thread.

I suggest you read the forum charter about what is relevant in this forum.

What goes into the Roads forum?

Basically, anything road-related, from boreens to motorways, including:

• Planned schemes
• Repair works
• Fantasy road designs
• Objections to, or support for, specific road projects
• Numbering schemes
• The NRA
• Scenic routes
• Mapping
• Roadside art
• Road History
• Landscaping
• Signage
• Road trivia

Topics related to short-term traffic disruption, the rules of the road and public transport queries are better suited to the Commuting & Transport forum. The suitability of road safety threads to this forum will be decided on by the mods on a case by case basis.)

dubhthach

BastardFace wrote: »

Sorry to derail, but this smug attitude is not nice. Also you do in your bollocks have a highly paid position. Ericsson in Athlone doesn't pay engineers highly!

(Source: I worked in Ericsson for 9 years and am well aware what average engineer salary is there, and know who you are in there!)

Can we keep the thread on topic, if the two of ye want to have an argument with regards to various multi-nationals and their pay scales it's not relevant to either the thread or to the forum.

WallyGUFC

People need to be able to get from their homes in the West side to their jobs in the East. They can't be expected to walk or cycle that. Public transport isn't a viable option. So this road makes sense.

I'd imagine that when it's built a QBC could be built on the Quincentenary Bridge and that'll be your public transport side of things sorted. Of course if there was to be no improvements in public transport after the road is built it'd be a bit stupid but hey, this is Galway we're talking about.

monument

WallyGUFC wrote: »

People need to be able to get from their homes in the West side to their jobs in the East. They can't be expected to walk or cycle that. Public transport isn't a viable option. So this road makes sense.

Why not upgrade public transport first?

Why not upgrade the cycle paths? Why should many people not be expected to cycle between 2-10km?

WallyGUFC

monument wrote: »

Why not upgrade public transport first?

Why not upgrade the cycle paths? Why should many people not be expected to cycle between 2-10km?

Okay so. Let's say they don't build the road and put a QBC each way over the Bridge. You're basically forcing people to use public transport in that scenario which isn't a good option.

Irish people moving from car use to public transport isn't just a modal shift, it's a complete culture shift and it won't happen overnight. With the bypass you get another bridge over the Corrib (which I think everyone will agree is needed), QBCs all the way from Westside to Parkmore and then people will have a choice. More people will use public transport and will breeze in on the QBCs, while those who still drive will face less traffic on the new road.

As for cycling, I don't regard that as a serious option for commutes of any reasonable distance. It takes longer, you could face into wind and/or rain, you'll need a shower at work, you may need to haul a suit/laptop etc. with you. Of course if you're putting QBCs on the Bridge you may as well put in cycle lanes to cater for the few who will use them so that they can cycle safely.

Personally speaking I'd never cycle 10km to work because frankly I'm not bothered. At least a bus would be dry, quick and comfortable.

lucernarian

WallyGUFC wrote: »

OAs for cycling, I don't regard that as a serious option for commutes of any reasonable distance. It takes longer, you could face into wind and/or rain, you'll need a shower at work, you may need to haul a suit/laptop etc. with you. Of course if you're putting QBCs on the Bridge you may as well put in cycle lanes to cater for the few who will use them so that they can cycle safely.

Personally speaking I'd never cycle 10km to work because frankly I'm not bothered. At least a bus would be dry, quick and comfortable.

I wouldn't see anyone being "forced" to use public transport just because more space is given to buses. And better measures for cycling could hardly claim much road space. I have read in other threads about some cost-effective measures that could be taken to improve bus and cycling use in Galway. But I see cycling as something that should complement centralised and regular public transport, like from train or bus stations or from tram/BRT stations, and also to enable shorter distances in urban areas from e.g. home to school in a safe manner.

There are people out there who would think cycling is a panacea to all commuting situations and I think that we should have progressed as a country and indeed a species past the point of relying on self-powered and unsheltered transport in dense areas to go from A to B. Anybody who wants to cycle 10km should be safely and speedily accommodated, far more than what's the current case in Galway but investment in public transport and pedestrian facilities should form the main alternative to investments that benefit just the car user.

what_traffic

Meet your local ARUP Civil Roads Engineers!

http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/phase-2/public-consultation-no-3/

Date Time Venue
Monday 25 May 2015 2.00pm-8.00pm Menlo Park Hotel, Terryland
Tuesday 26 May 2015 2.00pm-8.00pm Westwood Hotel, Dangan

Middle Man

monument wrote: »

Why not upgrade public transport first?

Why not upgrade the cycle paths? Why should many people not be expected to cycle between 2-10km?

Look, it's this simple:

If you want to revamp a room, it might be a good idea to remove some furniture first. Likewise, if you want to revamp Galway's transport, it might be a good idea to remove unnecessary through traffic first so that there's road capacity released for bus lanes or even a Galway Luas or Swiftway style BRT.

Aard

Middle Man wrote: »

Look, it's this simple:

Transport planning is nowhere near that simple!

Middle Man

Aard wrote: »

Transport planning is nowhere near that simple!

When I say 'simple', I'm talking about a basic concept behind integrated transport thinking. Gone are the days of partisan ideologies where it's either all cars or no cars - transport planning must realistically cater for all modes of transport and properly define the role of each.

What this country is going to have to get used to is spending money on transport infrastructure - lots of it! Governments must cease taking the easy way out with half arsed cycle schemes that try to force people from their cars or painting a few bus lanes. We need rail in our cities - DART, Luas and Metro along with quality walkways - many people prefer to walk and ride. For example, Galway should really go for it and not only get the bypass done, but also an East/West Luas that takes advantage of released road capacity in the aftermath of the bypass opening. I also think that walking and public transport should be seriously developed as commuting options rather than cycling - cycling infrastructure should be developed as a recreational amenity - more greenways etc. Compatibility and legibility are essential in transport planning.

Iwannahurl

Middle Man wrote: »

Look, it's this simple:

If you want to revamp a room, it might be a good idea to remove some furniture first. Likewise, if you want to revamp Galway's transport, it might be a good idea to remove unnecessary through traffic first so that there's road capacity released for bus lanes or even a Galway Luas or Swiftway style BRT.

Let's go with that analogy for the moment, before we're redirected to the Interior Design & Decoration forum.

It depends on what the intended function of the revamped room is. If, for example, what is really required in a family home is a quiet place to read or study, then first putting in a 48" TV, surround sound, a huge recliner sofa and a mini-bar would not be advisable, because the actual use of the room would most likely be the exact opposite to that intended function. Aspirations to add bookshelves and reading lamps at some vague future date are unlikely to make much of a difference.

Likewise, if the overarching objectives of a transport project for a city include, for example, the sustainable mobility of citizens, travel demand management, BRT, a proper school bus service and significant modal shift to cycling and walking, then the time to implement such measures is at the earliest possible stage.

The reason is obvious: massive increase in road capacity is the high-octane fuel for the fire of car use and car dependence. It's the 48" TV in the room with the volume turned up to eleven, showing repeats of Top Gear, when the teenagers are supposed to be studying for the Leaving Cert.

Iwannahurl

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Irish people moving from car use to public transport isn't just a modal shift, it's a complete culture shift and it won't happen overnight.

If the expressway is built, it will be available to car commuters quite literally overnight, once the official opening ceremony (beloved of politicians) is finished. In terms of encouraging a move from car use to public transport, what is the most likely effect of a 100 km/h four-lane expressway, in the short, medium and long term?

Middle Man wrote: »

What this country is going to have to get used to is spending money on transport infrastructure - lots of it!

Governments must cease taking the easy way out with half arsed cycle schemes that try to force people from their cars or painting a few bus lanes.

We need rail in our cities - DART, Luas and Metro along with quality walkways - many people prefer to walk and ride. For example, Galway should really go for it and not only get the bypass done, but also an East/West Luas that takes advantage of released road capacity in the aftermath of the bypass opening.

I also think that walking and public transport should be seriously developed as commuting options rather than cycling - cycling infrastructure should be developed as a recreational amenity - more greenways etc. Compatibility and legibility are essential in transport planning.

I couldn't disagree with a lot of that.

However, there are major opportunity costs in building an expressway for car commuters first, for reasons I would say are obvious.

If €500 million is spent on an expressway, what's left for the required massive improvements in public transport especially? Bear in mind that the total spending on sustainable transport in Galway over the last 20 years must surely be less than the half a billion suggested for this single road project. If that kind of money has been spent on public transport, cycling and walking in the city, then clearly it has been wasted.

You're absolutely right about the uselessness of painting a few bus lanes. An absolutely crucial issue is that what is needed to bring about a major shift to public transport is not merely bus (or rail) infrastructure but bus (or rail) services. There are both capital and operational costs.

This is where I believe there are ideological reasons for the overwhelming emphasis on road building to cater for car commuters. From the perspective of a particular ideology, public transport is seen as a cost to be avoided rather than as a service to be provided and paid for.

I'm beginning to suspect that the people pushing for this road don't want it because it will facilitate the development of Bus Rapid Transit etc. What if they want the expressway because it will buy them another twenty or thirty years of what they have already been doing: avoiding the need to plan, develop and run a reliable and efficient public transport service?

monument

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Okay so. Let's say they don't build the road and put a QBC each way over the Bridge. You're basically forcing people to use public transport in that scenario which isn't a good option.

Irish people moving from car use to public transport isn't just a modal shift, it's a complete culture shift and it won't happen overnight. With the bypass you get another bridge over the Corrib (which I think everyone will agree is needed), QBCs all the way from Westside to Parkmore and then people will have a choice. More people will use public transport and will breeze in on the QBCs, while those who still drive will face less traffic on the new road.

The same could be said for any of the QBCs in Dublin.

Personally I think a mainly on-road tram solution would be more effective and a better sell, but designing that to serve west-ease and the city centre might be a challenge.

WallyGUFC wrote: »

As for cycling, I don't regard that as a serious option for commutes of any reasonable distance. It takes longer, you could face into wind and/or rain, you'll need a shower at work, you may need to haul a suit/laptop etc. with you.

10km is not a long commute but there's also many 2-7km commutes crossing the river.

The other issues can be overcome -- you only have to look at Dublin.

lucernarian wrote: »

There are people out there who would think cycling is a panacea to all commuting situations and I think that we should have progressed as a country and indeed a species past the point of relying on self-powered and unsheltered transport in dense areas to go from A to B. Anybody who wants to cycle 10km should be safely and speedily accommodated, far more than what's the current case in Galway but investment in public transport and pedestrian facilities should form the main alternative to investments that benefit just the car user.

10km is a nice figure to choise but the reality is that there's many shorter east-west trips. In any case, 10km across Galway is only about 27mins by bike. And here's other examples:

3km = 10mins
4.2km = 14mins
5.3km = 20mins

(all based on current Google estimates of different trips, times could be improved with Dutch-like cycling infrastructure on our roads)

It's not a panacea, you might have noticed that I also mentioned public transport? But it's the closest thing to a panacea Ireland will ever see: it's more sustainable than public transport in cost, environmental reasons, and wider possible provision. If there's the proper provision, cycling is more direct, flexible, faster, and cheaper, so it can more easily partly or fully replace the car for many people, which is a lot harder to do with buses. The benefits of cycling to an individual and to the country is the closest thing we'll ever see to a panacea.

WallyGUFC

Dublin is hardly a reasonable comparison to Galway in all fairness. I would have assumed that most commuters in Dublin head towards the city centre from the suburbs for work whereas in Galway most people go from suburb to suburb or from city centre to suburb. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

Iwannahurl

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Dublin is hardly a reasonable comparison to Galway in all fairness. I would have assumed that most commuters in Dublin head towards the city centre from the suburbs for work whereas in Galway most people go from suburb to suburb or from city centre to suburb. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

The work commute patterns have not changed significantly, in terms of origins and destinations, in the last decade or longer. Most of them are car trips, of course, but despite that they collectively justified an outer bypass in former times, and an inner relief road/expressway now.

In general terms the vast majority of work trips within the city must be:

• Residential areas in the west to employment areas in the east (approx 12 km within the city boundary)
• Residential west to city centre (NUI Galway, UHG, commercial/retail sector, local authorities etc)*
• Residential east to employment areas in the east
• Residential east to city centre.

There is of course a substantial amount of traffic from outside the city heading into and across the city.

I don't know the proportions for each of the above, and ttbomk no official surveys have been done (eg using ANPR) to track origins and destinations. Open to correction on that -- I hope I'm wrong.

Add to all of the above car travel to primary, secondary and tertiary education, the majority of it by car. This is where a major part of the problem lies, and it has never been addressed.






*According to Derek Nolan TD, 30% of Galway City jobs are in the retail sector).