If the world goes completely vegan

Thelonious Monk · 02-12-2020 4:20pm

Gary kk wrote: »

And of the 66% cropland how much is for confectionery for alcohol and other products we don't necessarily need maybe we could rewind that land first. And no I don't expect anyone to agree to that.

Some of us need alcohol

Gary kk · 02-12-2020 4:20pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Some of us need alcohol

Lol me included.

Thelonious Monk · 02-12-2020 4:23pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Lol me included.

You can make quite a lot of alcohol with not that much sugar and a packet of yeast and a few flavourings, I make a ginger beer easy enough that comes in at about 7.2%, I wonder what the biological footprint of that is.

El Tarangu · 02-12-2020 4:24pm

Gary kk wrote: »

And of the 66% cropland how much is for confectionery for alcohol and other products we don't necessarily need maybe we could rewind that land first. And no I don't expect anyone to agree to that.

Again - this post is an example from posters from the F & F forum asking posters on this forum to solve all the problems of agricultural production, of any kind.

Perhaps you should try on the beer, wine and spirits forum, because tbh I don't see how this question is relevant to this forum.

Gary kk · 02-12-2020 4:26pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You can make quite a lot of alcohol with not that much sugar and a packet of yeast and a few flavourings, I make a ginger beer easy enough that comes in at about 7.2%, I wonder what the biological footprint of that is.

7.2% I would be ko after a pint.

Gary kk · 02-12-2020 4:27pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Again - this post is an example from posters from the F & F forum asking posters on this forum to solve all the problems of agricultural production, of any kind.

Perhaps you should try on the beer, wine and spirits forum, because tbh I don't see how this question is relevant to this forum.

Cool

ElKavo · 02-12-2020 4:30pm

The boss of Eat Just called it "one of the most significant milestones in the food industries" but challenges remain.

Firstly, it is much more expensive to produce lab-grown meat than plant-based products.

Case in point: Eat Just previously said it would sell lab-grown chicken nuggets at $50 each.

The cost has since come down but it will still be as expensive as premium chicken.

SRC: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55155741

Although it was $50 the price has already come down. Thought the article doesn't give a todays price. It certainly wont take 30 years before we see these directly competing with the cheapest nuggets on the market. Tech moves quick, far quicker than any optimization in animal farming.

Thelonious Monk · 02-12-2020 4:38pm

I wonder how it works... do they have to feed soy to some kind of meat lab monster?

ElKavo · 02-12-2020 4:39pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I wonder how it works... do they have to feed soy to some kind of meat lab monster?

Well 66% anyway

Seamai · 02-12-2020 4:52pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?

I read that earlier, sounds vile. There was a time when some people shifted towards vegetarian diets for health reasons, (myself included for almost 10 years). However veganism seems a very different animal (no pun intended) to me.
In the last few years there has been a huge drive towards producing all manner of vegan options to pretty much everything, much of it highly processed and not healthy. A few years ago I was in vegan supermarket in Germany and was struck by how processed and unnatural much of the food was. I only eat meat a few times a week but I'd never substitute it with any sort of fake meat.

Thelonious Monk · 02-12-2020 4:55pm

Seamai wrote: »

I read that earlier, sounds vile. There was a time when some people shifted towards vegetarian diets for health reasons, (myself included for almost 10 years). However veganism seems a very different animal (no pun intended) to me.
In the last few years there has been a huge drive towards producing all manner of vegan options to pretty much everything, much of it highly processed and not healthy. A few years ago I was in vegan supermarket in Germany and was struck by how processed and unnatural much of the food was. I only eat meat a few times a week but I'd never substitute it with any sort of fake meat.

Vegan or not, everyone eats too much processed food. It's a big market now for vegans but the staples of a good vegan diet would be pulses and veg.

gozunda · 02-12-2020 7:02pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Edit : Just to clarify I don't know because I am having a hell of a time trying to locate solid figures on what products are produced and value of the products produced.

I'd agree with that much of what is published is at best confusing.

I think what we do know is that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption and much of that is crop residues and by-products

On the article quoted above

Analysis of shipping data shows that Cargill imported 1.5m tonnes of Brazilian soya to the UK in the six years

That works out at approx. 250,000 kg of Brazilian soybeans imported into the UK each year. And as you pointed out those soybeans are processed for their oil and the leftover meal is sent for animal feed.

Don't agree with growing soy there - but looking at total Soybean production for Brazil - that's a drop in the ocean tbh. Production figures show that more than 122 million metric tons of soy beans were grown in Brazil in 2019/ 2020.

In the same period combined domestic use and exports of soy beans to China made up 87% (106.6 million metric tons) of all soybeans grown in Brazil

Leaving approx 13 % of all Brazilian soybeans being exported to other countries globally - of which the main importers were the Netherlands, Iran and Spain Thailand and Turkey.

I'd like to see all countries stopping such imports from Brazil. Not sure how that would go down with China tbh.

At present approx two thirds of all soybeans are grown outside of Brazil with the United States as the leading soybean producing country globally. No reason Brazilian production cant be moved to other suitable regions which don't involve deforestation tbh.

02-12-2020 10:59pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?

It’s clear where all this is heading and it’s great to see.

The numbers in there are crazy and this is from the article - https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/02/chart-of-the-day-this-is-how-many-animals-we-eat-each-year/

This will be an easy transition for your average carnist to make and especially the younger carnist who wants to make better choices for, what will be, their planet.

It’s also good to see the terms ‘drug-free’ and ‘cruelty-free meat’ in that article as I’ve never understood the struggle to accept that those terms have common use.

The Guardian has always provided great journalism and I’m happy to make my regular contributions to access their online content. I would encourage more people to do this. I do it through PayPal.

This article gives hope and it’s great to think that within 20 years we could see that 60% of meat provided will not come from dead animals - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/12/most-meat-in-2040-will-not-come-from-slaughtered-animals-report

That’s great news for the environment and for the billions of animals that won’t face slaughter.

Thelonious Monk · 02-12-2020 11:46pm

The Guardian have this as their main story tonight

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/humanity-is-waging-war-on-nature-says-un-secretary-general-antonio-guterres

They are the only major news source that are taking the environmental crisis seriously. That is why I have given them contributions. Also love their sport content.

richie123 · 03-12-2020 12:09am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Not yet, but some day, i reckon. I cant see it ever replacing meat totally it will just be another option, so you wont be out of a job any time soon.

Why wouldn't it replace meat it's basically the same thing ?
Only problem I have with this is it'll just be big conglomerate s that will be allowed produce it!

Thelonious Monk · 03-12-2020 12:50am

richie123 wrote: »

Why wouldn't it replace meat it's basically the same thing ?
Only problem I have with this is it'll just be big conglomerate s that will be allowed produce it!

Well you're talking to a tiny subsection of people in this sub, most people would probably prefer to eat real animals, for now anyway. I just hope we can find a way to balance nature with food production, worldwide.

richie123 · 03-12-2020 9:20am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well you're talking to a tiny subsection of people in this sub, most people would probably prefer to eat real animals, for now anyway. I just hope we can find a way to balance nature with food production, worldwide.

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

White Clover · 03-12-2020 12:05pm

richie123 wrote: »

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

True, but the conglomerates aim is money, they will keep banging the drum that food is manufactured by them in a factory.
Essentially, a certain amount of people will be dependent on these manufacturers for their food. The remainder will still realise that they can produce their own food of much higher quality without swelling the coffers of big business.

Tar.Aldarion · 03-12-2020 5:35pm

richie123 wrote: »

Lab grown has some battle to become mainstream.beef at the minute is produced below cost and it's dirt cheap ..vast majority on the planet don't care what they eat so long as it's cheap

I wonder how cheap they can make it, should have low costs when it is at scale. In 4 years it got 30,000 times cheaper to make.

patsy_mccabe · 03-12-2020 8:52pm

No farm yard animals = no farm yard manure

No farm yard manure = no organic fertiliser

No organic fertiliser = no sustainable food production for 8.3 billion people

It really is that simple.

.

richie123 · 03-12-2020 9:38pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No farm yard animals = no farm yard manure

No farm yard manure = no organic fertiliser

No organic fertiliser = no sustainable food production for 8.3 billion people

It really is that simple.

It's produced Ina lab.lab conditions on a massive scale
I suppose they'll use normal fertilizer to fertilize plant food though that's not a very carbon friendly process ...climate change is a problem too

richie123 · 03-12-2020 9:47pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I wonder how cheap they can make it, should have low costs when it is at scale. In 4 years it got 30,000 times cheaper to make.

Jaz I doubt that ...was reading Richard Branson's take on it a while ago he reckoned it was 30 years away ... obviously he got it wrong but he won't be far out I'd imagine

White Clover · 03-12-2020 10:06pm

richie123 wrote: »

It's produced Ina lab.lab conditions on a massive scale
I suppose they'll use normal fertilizer to fertilize plant food though that's not a very carbon friendly process ...climate change is a problem too

Is it Artificial fertiliser you mean Richie?

richie123 · 03-12-2020 11:16pm

White Clover wrote: »

Is it Artificial fertiliser you mean Richie?

Yes though I'm not sure what the vegan crowds take on that is ...yields would be very poor without artificial fertilizer

03-12-2020 11:21pm

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So long as we stop imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals then all will be good.

Gary kk · 03-12-2020 11:22pm

Don't rise to him.

03-12-2020 11:23pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Don't rise to him.

You talking about Richie or White Clover ?

Nekarsulm · 04-12-2020 1:01am

It's an interesting concept, is it meat if it was never conscious?
Or does the fact that its grown from the cells of a long dead chicken mean it's like Schrodigners cat, possibly both dead or alive?
As its currently grown in a modified bovine foetal blood serum, its not exactly vegan..
What is it exactly, when you grow chicken cells in bovine blood serum?
Chicken, beef? A hybrid creature?
As far as I know the special thing about foetal blood cells from umbilical cord is that they can be used to grow any cell in the body, hence its value in experimentation to try and repair spinal nerve column breaks, and grow organs for specific purposes.
Could the cells grown in such a broth ever gain a rudimentary nervous system if left in the tank for longer periods?
I'm sure if you can think it, some lab is trying it.
Whether it is grown from cells that never were conscious or not, it's difficult to see how a vegan would consider eating it as an acceptable way of ingesting protein.
In fact, it's hard to see how an omnivore would either..

04-12-2020 1:54am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Whether it is grown from cells that never were conscious or not, it's difficult to see how a vegan would consider eating it as an acceptable way of ingesting protein.
In fact, it's hard to see how an omnivore would either..

Same can be said right now but carnists still eat dead animals.

It’s pretty disgusting (thing to actually do) eating a dead innocent animal but some people still do it so not sure the alternative could be any worse really.

Nekarsulm · 04-12-2020 2:09am

I was more interested in whether something grown in a tank from animal cells was technically "meat" than whether an animal is "innocent" or not.
Do animals care if their herd mate is innocent?
What is their concept of innocence like?
If two sheep square up to fight, and one breaks the others neck, or brain damaged them, ( as can easily happen without good sheparding) is it still "innocent" or is it now "guilty"?

04-12-2020 2:16am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I was more interested in whether something grown in a tank from animal cells was technically "meat" than whether an animal is "innocent" or not.
Do animals care if their herd mate is innocent?
What is their concept of innocence like?
If two sheep square up to fight, and one breaks the others neck, or brain damaged them, ( as can easily happen without good sheparding) is it still "innocent" or is it now "guilty"?

Are you comparing what happens in the wild with humans breeding, imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals ?

Ten of Swords · 04-12-2020 2:23am

Klopparama, while the substance of your question is perfectly valid your posts tonight are coming across as combative and inflammatory. Please be mindful of how you are engaging with other posters

Nekarsulm · 04-12-2020 2:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you comparing what happens in the wild with humans breeding, imprisoning and slaughtering innocent animals ?

You seem to have somehow missed my post in its entirety,
is a compound generated from bird cells grown in a bovine blood agar actually "meat"?
And if so, why would it be heralded as a breakthrough for vegans or vegetarians?
If it is meat, what are your views on "imprisioning" it in a 1200 litre vat while it is grown?
(seeing as you are determined to go down some emotive route).

04-12-2020 2:45am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

You seem to have somehow missed my post in its entirety,
is a compound generated from bird cells grown in a bovine blood agar actually "meat"?
And if so, why would it be heralded as a breakthrough for vegans or vegetarians?
If it is meat, what are your views on "imprisioning" it in a 1200 litre vat while it is grown?
(seeing as you are determined to go down some emotive route).

I don’t think I’ve missed your point. What makes you think that ?

I’m not heralding anything.

I’ve read what the results may be.

Less innocent animals being bred and then slaughtered.

Good enough for me.

I’m not determined to go down any route. It is emotive. Innocent animals have a horrible life and are then slaughtered. Something has come along that may lessen all that pain. That’s a big yes from me.

Nekarsulm · 04-12-2020 2:59am

Again with the "innocent" bit.
Looking back at your earlier post is it your consideration that farmed animals are "innocent" but if running wild, such prefixes do not need apply?
"Horrible life"? Methinks you are either unfortunate enough to only know the kind of individual who should never be let care for animals, or choose to consider all farmers as such.
Interesting to read that you consider an artificially constructed substance, produced at the lowest possible cost (as it surely would be, to maximise profit) and by a process owned by bio-tech/chemical corporations as an acceptable food.

But back to my original question, is it meat?
Is reactivating part of an animal dead for years, encouraging those cells to multiply and then killing them again actually progress?

El Tarangu · 04-12-2020 3:24am

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

No farm yard animals = no farm yard manure

No farm yard manure = no organic fertiliser

No organic fertiliser = no sustainable food production for 8.3 billion people

It really is that simple.

If we weren't using one-quarter of the ice-free land in the world for livestock grazing, we could use some of that land for growing food for people instead - I'm sure we would manage without a bit of manure.

richie123 wrote: »

It's produced Ina lab.lab conditions on a massive scale
I suppose they'll use normal fertilizer to fertilize plant food though that's not a very carbon friendly process ...climate change is a problem too

Well, if we didn't have to dedicate a full one-third of ALL of the cropland in the world to feeding (methane-producing) livestock, we wouldn't have to use nearly as much fertiliser, now would we?

And I while I'm glad to hear about your concerns for the environment, I think the sentiment is a little misplaced - it would be a lot more efficient to just grow some crops, and have people consume them directly, rather than:

chopping down rainforests in South America to produce feed for cattle;
shipping that feed to Ireland;
feeding it to the cattle (as I am sure you will know, it takes many, many kilos of feed to produce a single kilo of beef;
shipping those cattle to north Africa to be hacked to death.

- that all doesn't sound particularly efficient, from the perspective of the environment.

gozunda · 04-12-2020 6:05am

El Tarangu wrote: »

If we weren't using one-quarter of the ice-free land in the world for livestock grazing, we could use some of that land for growing food for people instead - I'm sure we would manage without a bit of manure.Well, if we didn't have to dedicate a full one-third of ALL of the cropland in the world to feeding (methane-producing) livestock, we wouldn't have to use nearly as much fertiliser, now would we?And I while I'm glad to hear about your concerns for the environment, I think the sentiment is a little misplaced - it would be a lot more efficient to just grow some crops, and have people consume them directly, rather than:
chopping down rainforests in South America to produce feed for cattle;

shipping that feed to Ireland;

feeding it to the cattle (as I am sure you will know, it takes many, many kilos of feed to produce a single kilo of beef;

shipping those cattle to north Africa to be hacked to death.

That's the thing. You cannot grow commercial crops without widespread use of fertilisers. And lots of land simply can't be used to grow crops because the soil, topography or climatic conditions are simply not suitable. Remember the dust bowl in the US and what happened when natural grasslands were used for growing crops? And artificial fertilisers require huge amounts of fossil fuels and release huge amounts of methane. Definitely not efficient for the environment.

And the fact is globally there is no shortage of food. Where shortages happen at present - its mainly due to corruption social and economic inequalities.

And that 1/3 cropland statistic again. This ignores that a full 86% of what is fed to animals is not suitable for human consumption. And is largely made up of the byproduct and left overs of the human food industry.

Terrible waste to throw that away ...

As to these often repeated stories

Deforestation in Brazil etc - where the bulk of what is being grown is used iin Brazil or directly exported to China.
the relatively small amount of animal feeds used in Ireland primarily comes from the US, Europe and elsewhere.
in Ireland again most cattle are fed a grass based diet with additional feed used as necessary during winter months etc.
"Hacked"??? Dont agree with Hal al practice but of the relatively small numbers of cattle who are exported to such countries - are killed using this method. Increasingly Hal al practice includes stunning.

But perhaps most importantly what was not included when quoting the land use and livestock figures from that source previously quoted is this section.

"One billion poor people, mostly pastoralists in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa depend on livestock for food and livelihoods. "

But perhaps we should tell them such sentiments are misplaced and that they should just grow some crops.

richie123 · 04-12-2020 9:17am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

It's an interesting concept, is it meat if it was never conscious?
Or does the fact that its grown from the cells of a long dead chicken mean it's like Schrodigners cat, possibly both dead or alive?
As its currently grown in a modified bovine foetal blood serum, its not exactly vegan..
What is it exactly, when you grow chicken cells in bovine blood serum?
Chicken, beef? A hybrid creature?
As far as I know the special thing about foetal blood cells from umbilical cord is that they can be used to grow any cell in the body, hence its value in experimentation to try and repair spinal nerve column breaks, and grow organs for specific purposes.
Could the cells grown in such a broth ever gain a rudimentary nervous system if left in the tank for longer periods?
I'm sure if you can think it, some lab is trying it.
Whether it is grown from cells that never were conscious or not, it's difficult to see how a vegan would consider eating it as an acceptable way of ingesting protein.
In fact, it's hard to see how an omnivore would either..

Are you suggesting lab grown meat is not a vegan product?

El Tarangu · 04-12-2020 9:41am

gozunda wrote: »

That's the thing. You cannot grow commercial crops without widespread use of fertilisers. And lots of land simply can't be used to grow crops because the soil, topography or climatic conditions are simply not suitable. Remember the dust bowl in the US and what happened when natural grasslands were used for growing crops? And artificial fertilisers require huge amounts of fossil fuels and release huge amounts of methane. Definitely not efficient for the environment.

And the fact is globally there is no shortage of food.

Great - I don't see why the fact that crops can't be grown on land, it automatically defaults to "well, I guess we need to raise beef here" - this land could be used for anything else

gozunda wrote: »

And that 1/3 cropland statistic again. This ignores that a full 86% of what is fed to animals is not suitable for human consumption. And is largely made up of the byproduct and left overs of the human food industry.

More harping on about fertilizers, while ignoring the fact that this 86% of crops would not need to be grown, at all, were it not for the billions of livestock animals on the planet. Also, the article does not say that this is all "byproduct and left over of the human food industry" - this line you added yourself. This has been claimed time and again on this forum, with zero evidence to support, and in fact much evidence being posted to the contrary.

[*]Deforestation in Brazil etc - where the bulk of what is being grown is used iin Brazil or directly exported to China. - used in Brazil for what? Is it.... feeding cattle?
[*]the relatively small amount of animal feeds used in Ireland primarily comes from the US, Europe and elsewhere. - that's a wonderfully-opaque statement - how much is "a relatively small amount"? Also, is shipping thousands of tonnes of feed from the U.S. also not contributing greenhouse gasses?
[*]in Ireland again most cattle are fed a grass based diet with additional feed used as necessary during winter months etc. --nice to know; again, zero figures being offered
[*]"Hacked"??? Dont agree with Hal al practice but of the relatively small numbers of cattle who are exported to such countries - are killed using this method. Increasingly Hal al practice includes stunning. - if you search 'live exports' in the Farming & Forestry forum, you will find many examples of farmers soul-searching about sending their animals off to north africa - though for most this only goes so far as that it does not affect their bottom line.

But perhaps most importantly what was not included when quoting land use figures and livestock from that source previously quoted is this piece.

"One billion poor people, mostly pastoralists in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa depend on livestock for food and livelihoods. "

But perhaps we should tell them such sentiments are misplaced and that they should just grow some crops.

If your aim is to improve the lot of your farming brethren in the global south, perhaps your time would be better spent campaigning for CAP reform, rather than expending so much worry about veganism.

Gary kk · 04-12-2020 9:58am

86% bulk from a field of corn would be the straw which is clearly a by product and not why that crop is grown.

Do you see? Can you see that this is why we are looking for solid numbers?

And manure is needed to keep a healthy organic matter in the soil. Crop rotation only goes so far. And those beyond burgers are using more of the soya plant to get a texture and taste similar to meat. Leaving less to compost after.

Edit : Cap is for farmers in the European Union weather they grow crops or raise livestock. It's to help produce food at a higher standard.
Its usually in the account for a day and then gone to pay bills.

gozunda · 04-12-2020 10:51am

El Tarangu wrote: »

Great - I don't see why the fact that crops can't be grown on land, it automatically defaults to "well, I guess we need to raise beef here" - this land could be used for anything else

Other than the fact that indeed crops can't be grown and that many people around the world depend on livestock for food and their livelihoods and as detailed in the article you linked which shows how livestock farming (not just "beef") can work as an benefit for people and the land itself.

El Tarangu wrote: »

More harping on about fertilizers, while ignoring the fact that this 86% of crops would not need to be grown, at all, were it not for the billions of livestock animals on the planet. Also, the article does not say that this is all "byproduct and left over of the human food industry" - this line you added yourself. This has been claimed time and again on this forum, with zero evidence to support, and in fact much evidence being posted to the contrary.

Well my apologies I was replying to your own comment on fertilisers. But yes fertilisers are required for the commercial growing of crops. Getting rid of animals won't reduce the vast amount of crops grown or artificial fertilisers required or indeed crops being shipped around the world.

And again Animal feedstuffs are largely made up of the byproducts and leftovers of the human food industry (my words). That also includes those crops which fail, are diseased, dont meet human grade food standards etc. Btw this is the part of that report to which I referred.

This study determines that 86% of livestock feed is not suitable for human consumption. If not consumed by livestock, crop residues and by-products could quickly become an environmental burden as the human population grows and consumes more and more processed food

And also

A new study by FAO and published in Global Food Security found that livestock rely primarily on forages, crop residues and by-products that are not edible to humans and that certain production systems contribute directly to global food security, as they produce more highly valuable nutrients for humans, such as proteins, than they consume.

El Tarangu wrote: »

if you search 'live exports' in the Farming & Forestry forum, you will find many examples of farmers soul-searching about sending their animals off to north africa - though for most this only goes so far as that it does not affect their bottom line.

Many many farmers have issues regarding live export. One being the one you raised ie the use of Hal al. I've already detailed that. It remains a tiny amount of live cattle are exported from Ireland every year.

El Tarangu wrote: »

If your aim is to improve the lot of your farming brethren in the global south, perhaps your time would be better spentcampaigning for CAP reform, rather than expending so much worry about veganism.

Again it's is a discussion and yes all everyone should be concerned about the impacts of what we eat on the planet.

Bill Hook · 04-12-2020 10:52am

Not a vegan myself but I happened across the concept of stockfree organic gardening last year when I was looking into maintaining fertility in my no-dig vegetable garden without the use of farmyard manure. I can't find local organic farmyard manure so I am trying to generate fertility on site using homemade compost.

Anyway, for anyone that is interested there is a bloke called Iain Tolhurst in the UK running a market garden without animal manure.

https://www.tolhurstorganic.co.uk/about-us/what-is-stockfree-organic/

Nekarsulm · 04-12-2020 10:55am

richie123 wrote: »

Are you suggesting lab grown meat is not a vegan product?

If its "meat" lab grown from vegetable cells, of course it's not real meat ..
My question is, as its the replication of existing poultry meat cells, and grown in a broth synthesized from bovine blood cells, what exactly is it?
It's more a "meat" than any vegetable product is.
I haven't read anything yet about the growth rates possible for this product, can you speed it up?
I'm sure that would be the aim of the companies producing it.
Would ingesting a material made of cells designed or adapted to reproduce at an accelerated rate have health risks?
Would total removal of the chemicals required to achieve this growth be possible, or possible to guarantee?
I am interested particularly because both my parents died from cancer, and while 33% of us will get it anyway, I would be wary of eating something which was grown with chemicals designed to speed up cell division and growth.
It's strange that a group of people who are particularly concerned about the origins and ethical source of their food would consider it as an acceptable product.

richie123 · 04-12-2020 11:46am

Nekarsulm wrote: »

If its "meat" lab grown from vegetable cells, of course its not.
My question is, as its the replication of existing poultry meat cells, and grown in a broth synthesized from bovine blood cells, what exactly is it?
It's more a "meat" than any vegetable product is.
I haven't read anything yet about the growth rates possible for this product, can you speed it up?
I'm sure that would be the aim of the companies producing it.
Would ingesting a material made of cells designed or adapted to reproduce at an accelerated rate have health risks?
Would total removal of the chemicals required to achieve this growth be possible, or possible to guarantee?
I am interested particularly because both my parents died from cancer, and while 33% of us will get it anyway, I would be wary of eating something which was grown with chemicals designed to speed up cell division and growth.
It's strange that a group of people who are particularly concerned about the origins and ethical source of their food would consider it as an acceptable product.

So what's the consensus in the vegan community?will it be accepted?

Gary kk · 04-12-2020 12:42pm

Bill Hook wrote: »

Not a vegan myself but I happened across the concept of stockfree organic gardening last year when I was looking into maintaining fertility in my no-dig vegetable garden without the use of farmyard manure. I can't find local organic farmyard manure so I am trying to generate fertility on site using homemade compost.

Anyway, for anyone that is interested there is a bloke called Iain Tolhurst in the UK running a market garden without animal manure.

https://www.tolhurstorganic.co.uk/about-us/what-is-stockfree-organic/

Hey Bill if they are using peat off a bog/moor it's not really good.

Thelonious Monk · 04-12-2020 1:54pm

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/04/global-soils-underpin-life-but-future-looks-bleak-warns-un-report

Much of the world's soil may not be of much use in the near future. I think vegan or not, the world is facing some serious issues in the coming decades.

patsy_mccabe · 04-12-2020 2:43pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/04/global-soils-underpin-life-but-future-looks-bleak-warns-un-report

Much of the world's soil may not be of much use in the near future. I think vegan or not, the world is facing some serious issues in the coming decades.

Thats tillage land. Land used for grazing only, is actually in a very healthy state. Just don't tell that to vegans. Sustainability doesn't seem to be on their radar.

richie123 · 04-12-2020 3:27pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

If we weren't using one-quarter of the ice-free land in the world for livestock grazing, we could use some of that land for growing food for people instead - I'm sure we would manage without a bit of manure.

Well, if we didn't have to dedicate a full one-third of ALL of the cropland in the world to feeding (methane-producing) livestock, we wouldn't have to use nearly as much fertiliser, now would we?

And I while I'm glad to hear about your concerns for the environment, I think the sentiment is a little misplaced - it would be a lot more efficient to just grow some crops, and have people consume them directly, rather than:
chopping down rainforests in South America to produce feed for cattle;

shipping that feed to Ireland;

feeding it to the cattle (as I am sure you will know, it takes many, many kilos of feed to produce a single kilo of beef;

shipping those cattle to north Africa to be hacked to death.

- that all doesn't sound particularly efficient, from the perspective of the environment.

A very large proportion of that grazing ground is not suitable for crops.

Bill Hook · 04-12-2020 3:33pm

Gary kk wrote: »

Hey Bill if they are using peat off a bog/moor it's not really good.

They're not using peat apparently...

https://organic-plus.net/2019/04/10/wood-innovation-to-phase-out-peat/

Gary kk · 04-12-2020 3:43pm

Bill Hook wrote: »

They're not using peat apparently...

https://organic-plus.net/2019/04/10/wood-innovation-to-phase-out-peat/

Oh sorry in the first link it did say peat.

If the world goes completely vegan

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