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Why does the Irish State lay Laurel wreathes at WW1 commemorations?

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    #32
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Got a yellow card for this post!!! Can my fellow posters back me up with the outright injustice of Moderators trying to shut up people they don't like especially when the person doesn't do a God dang thing wrong?
    .

    Mod Note:
    The above poster has been invited to raise any such issues in the appropriate dispute resolution forum.


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    #33
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Why did WW1 happen Fred?

    Political tensions over colonies, arms race, Alsace-Lorraine, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Germany invading Belgium and lots more.

    Family argument being obviously absent.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    No it doesn't, that's just little irelander bull****. A bit like the little Ireland bull**** about the RBL being Nazi collaborators, that's just something Fauranach came up with because of the blatant collaborators in the Irish republican movement.

    More puerile namecalling. You're in denial again. First, as a matter of indisputable fact the poppy commemorates and supports "all generations of the Armed Forces", all of them. According to the Royal British Legion: "The money we raise from the Poppy Appeal helps us to provide practical, social and financial support to the serving and ex-service community. We support all generations of the Armed Forces and their families - today and for the rest of their lives."

    That includes British soldiers who murdered children in Belfast and Derry. As Nodin has often shown (to your disapproval), it includes the British soldiers who policed what Caroline Elkins termed "Britain's Gulag" in Kenya in her Pulitzer Prize-winning book of the same title. It includes the British soldiers who partook in the mass executions of over 10,000 Kenyans during the so-called Mau Mau Revolt. And so many other British state perpetrators of mass murder.

    Needless to say, the poppy money is not going to fund the families of the victims of the British Armed Forces. And yet still you persist in claiming the poppy is "not political". You've a singularly idiosyncratic understanding of the word "political". And this is all before we consider how people in British public life who object to the poppy's politics have been treated by people who share your politics, or how the commemorations have been used to recruit troops for Iraq and elsewhere.
    Whether it's the treatment of Jon Snow, James McClean or its enforced use on British TV for about two months each year, it's disingenuous to deny its politics. The fact that the Royal British Legion, contender for the most jingoistic British organisation on the planet, is the organiser of poppy day month months is enough to warn most people to stay away from it as a symbol.


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    #35
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    More puerile namecalling. You're in denial again. First, as a matter of indisputable fact the poppy commemorates and supports "all generations of the Armed Forces", all of them. According to the Royal British Legion: "The money we raise from the Poppy Appeal helps us to provide practical, social and financial support to the serving and ex-service community. We support all generations of the Armed Forces and their families - today and for the rest of their lives."

    That includes British soldiers who murdered children in Belfast and Derry. As Nodin has often shown (to your disapproval), it includes the British soldiers who policed what Caroline Elkins termed "Britain's Gulag" in Kenya in her Pulitzer Prize-winning book of the same title. It includes the British soldiers who partook in the mass executions of over 10,000 Kenyans during the so-called Mau Mau Revolt. And so many other British state perpetrators of mass murder.

    Needless to say, the poppy money is not going to fund the families of the victims of the British Armed Forces. And yet still you persist in claiming the poppy is "not political". You've a singularly idiosyncratic understanding of the word "political". And this is all before we consider how people in British public life who object to the poppy's politics have been treated by people who share your politics, or how the commemorations have been used to recruit troops for Iraq and elsewhere.
    Whether it's the treatment of Jon Snow, James McClean or its enforced use on British TV for about two months each year, it's disingenuous to deny its politics. The fact that the Royal British Legion, contender for the most jingoistic British organisation on the planet, is the organiser of poppy day month months is enough to warn most people to stay away from it as a symbol.

    Yawn.

    Does the Easter Lilly commemorate Nazi collaborators, child killers and pedophiles?


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    #36
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    The poppy only commemorates military personnel killed in the war and not the many many civilians. They also deserve to be remembered.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #37
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,745 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Jesus. wrote: »
    I agree with you Lord Sutch that the poppy should eventually be adopted by the Free State also.

    Thought I had been magically transported back in time there.

    It's a good thing that any wreath at all is being laid. I really don't care what vegetation is used in the make up of the wreath.


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    #38
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Apollo is usually depicted wearing a laurel wreath on his head. The reason for this is because he took the micky out of Cupid, so Cupid made Apollo fall in love with Daphne while at the same time he made Daphne despise Apollo. Apollo kept trying to get off with Daphne but she kept telling him to feck off. Eventually she asked the gods to change her form so that Apollo would leave her be, so they turned her into a laurel. Apollo then fashioned a wreath of laurels and wore it to remind him of her.


    The Greeks used the laurel wreath as a civic award. The Romans saw themselves as successors to the Greeks and adopted many elements of Greek culture, including the Laurel. The Roman version of a military medal was a Corona (a crown) which obviously enough was worn on the head. The Corona was made from different material depending on what it was being awarded for The highest military honour a Roman general could receive was to be awarded a Triumph. The corona for this was called a corona triumphalis and was made from laurels.

    Since then the laurel wreath has been used extensively in military iconography and national flags form the coat of arms of Portugal, North Korean military flags and the flag of the UN. On the Arc de Triomphe Napoleon is depicted being crowned with a laurel wreath by Nike/Victoria (goddess of victory). In Berlin, the statue of Victoria at the top of the victory column holds aloft a laurel wreath.

    The laurel wreath is also depicted on numerous Irish military medals and as far as I'm aware has been used in military commemorations since the foundation of the State. Queen Elizabeth laid a laurel wreath at the garden of remembrance, JFK also laid one at Arbour Hill when he visited Ireland.


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    #39
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I really don't care what vegetation is used in the make up of the wreath.

    .........and we will now have the solemn laying of the traditional wreath of brussel sprouts......

    It just doesn't have the same ring to it.


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    #40
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    The Greeks used the laurel wreath as a civic award. The Romans saw themselves as successors to the Greeks and adopted many elements of Greek culture, including the Laurel. The Roman version of a military medal was a Corona (a crown) which obviously enough was worn on the head. ...........

    Since then the laurel wreath has been used extensively in military iconography and national flags form the coat of arms of Portugal, North Korean military flags and the flag of the UN. On the Arc de Triomphe Napoleon is depicted being crowned with a laurel wreath by Nike/Victoria (goddess of victory). ............

    The laurel wreath is also depicted on numerous Irish military medals and as far as I'm aware has been used .......... etc

    Firstly thanks very much for that educational post, it really is what the history forum is all about. I do get everything you say, and I fully agree with your thrust (the origins are fascinating), but regarding my very specific & nuanced question (posts 1 & 6) what say you? I'm not looking for a solution, but maybe a reason for the juxtaposition as we see it. So I think it good that the State lays a laurel wreath, and I am not saying that the State should lay a poppy wreath either, but I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism).

    I just want your thoughts really.
    Thanks in advance.


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    #41
    Owryan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Owryan


    Unless someone asks each family then we ll probably never know.

    Maybe there are a wide range of reasons, perhaps some families have always used a poppy and the tradition has been handed down. It could be that since for a long time there was no state recognition for the dead of WWI that some families felt that the only way to remember their loved one was to use a poppy. That the poppy is closely associated with WWI could be another reason.

    Personally, im glad the state now recognises and remember all its war dead. At the end of the day its the act of remembrance rather than the colour of the wreath that matters.


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    #42
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism). .

    Connotations etc. Fred drew up the Easter Lilly earlier. The descendants & various other groups use it for Easter Rising commemorations. Simply because of that, do you think the State should automatically adopt it also?


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    #43
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Please lets not get into another discussion about the Easter Lilly, lets stay on the thread topic.


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    #44
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    It ties in with what I said earlier on. You seem to be of the view that because a small unrepresentative group adopt a symbol, that the State should automatically do so also.

    Jesus. wrote: »
    Its just an observation but I'm just curious as to why you think the actual State should use a particular wreath just because a certain group chooses to do so? The State is performing this act on behalf of all the people of Ireland not just a tiny number of people related to the soldiers.


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    #45
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Jesus. wrote: »
    It ties in with what I said earlier on. You seem to be of the view that because a small unrepresentative group adopt a symbol, that the State should automatically do so also.

    Jesus may I suggest you study the wording more closely in post no 40.


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    #46
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    I studied it very closely, Lord Sutch, and tried to illuminate to you as to why a poppy might not necessarily be appropriate; connotations etc. I gave you an alternative example but you told me not to use it!


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    #47
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Your alternative being to replace the poppy/laurel wreaths with a wreath of Easter Lillies.

    Not sure about that.

    Republicans use the Easter lily as a symbol for the Rebels who died on Easter week 1916, but I can't see how you could extend the lily to cover all those Irish soldiers who died on Flanders poppy fields.


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    #48
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Your alternative being to replace the poppy/laurel wreaths with a wreath of Easter Lillies.Not sure about that.Republicans use the Easter lily as a symbol for the Rebels who died on Easter week 1916, but I can't see how you could extend the lily to cover all those Irish soldiers who died on Flanders poppy fields.

    With respect M'Lord, what on earth are you talking about? That's the craziest idea I've ever heard.


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    #49
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Firstly thanks very much for that educational post, it really is what the history forum is all about. I do get everything you say, and I fully agree with your thrust (the origins are fascinating), but regarding my very specific & nuanced question (posts 1 & 6) what say you? I'm not looking for a solution, but maybe a reason for the juxtaposition as we see it. So I think it good that the State lays a laurel wreath, and I am not saying that the State should lay a poppy wreath either, but I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism).

    I just want your thoughts really.
    Thanks in advance.

    I suppose that the obvious answer to your question is that the state has opted to stick with the type of wreath that has traditionally been used in military commemorations worldwide and has been in use since the foundation of the state. The laurel wreath has the benefit of being pretty neutral. Like it or not, there are people who would be genuinely offended if the state were to use the poppy at official functions. The lily is not used for the same reason. Non state groups and private individuals are free to use the poppy or any flower they choose.

    Here's a link for a picture showing singer John McCormick laying a wreath at the Leinster Lawn Cenotaph (built to commemorate Collins and Griffith). Laurel wreaths are visible leaning against the monument. The picture is undated but must have been taken between 1923 and 1928 as the plaque commemorating Kevin O'Higgins has not been installed.
    http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000194535



    The Aussies and Kiwis traditionally used the laurel wreath for commemorations, but they seem to have adopted the poppy in the last few years for ANZAC commemorations (or a laurel wreath decorated with a few poppies.

    Selling the poppy was still widespread in the Republic up until the Troubles. A few years ago a friend of my dad who was in the RAF in WW2 told me he stopped wearing a poppy after Bloody Sunday because he was so angry about what happened that day.


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    #50
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    COI churches still sell it on Remembrance Sunday


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    #51
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    By widespread I mean that there were lads selling poppies on street corners and pubs and the like.


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    #52
    Full Marx
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭Full Marx


    A more worthwhile discussion would be about how we should commemorate and remember those who died in WW1. Brian Hanley gave a very good speech/talk on this subject at an event a few years ago. You can read it at the prior link. A version of it is now published by Connolly Books in a pamphlet entitled "Remember With Rage".

    As for the topic at hand, having instigated and contributed to the numerous threads about the British Poppy for years now the OP knows full well the controversies regarding that symbol and by extension why the Irish state does not use it.

    WW1 was a pointless waste of human life and a low point for the human race - it was imperialism at it's worst, and the working classes paid for this folly with their lives in their millions. An utterly pointless war which laid the foundations for WW2.

    It is important to remember that while Britain was supposedly fighting for the "freedom of small nations" their executioners were busy at work - suppressing Ireland's right to freedom as well as butchering hundreds of their own soldiers, many of whom were suffering from PTSD, were minors and had no fair trials. Needless to say the majority of these victims were from the non commissioned ranks.

    The fact that the OP would even raise such a triviality as to what type of wreath the Irish state uses shows us that the real objection he/she has is to the mentality and motive behind Irish state commemoration of those who died. That is, one which is at least semi divorced from the jingoism of British state commemorations. British military commemorations are all about tying the last 100 years or so of British military escapades into one nice package that can be celebrated and sold to gullible teenagers to get them to enlist. It is branding 101. All the rubbish about military tradition. The "brave Tommy" is remembered while we are treated to pictures of veterans of the Afghan and illegal Iraq war. The innumerable crimes by the British army are brushed under the carpet by the all encompassing Poppy. The post colonial nature of many Irish is quite interesting,only now are we starting to get some of the truth about collusion and outright British state direction via their paid agents of "terrorist" activity but we still get people defending them.

    The Poppy fans need to realize that there is a difference between commemorating and celebrating. The Poppy is about celebrating. And celebrating the British army will forever be offensive to their victims - and on the score the Irish are first among many.

    In an Irish context we need to examine the role of Redmond in this needless slaughter. The ultimate "Man of Violence" he send thousands to their deaths and many more to be irreparably mentally and physically wounded.

    What we should also be remembering is the Irish people who said no to war - who pointed out its folly, its imperialist nature and stood up to Britain, who stopped conscription in Ireland. There needs to be a major commemoration and celebration of the campaign against conscription in Ireland, that it saved untold thousands from being forced to fight, to kill and to be injured or killed themselves.

    James Connolly had it right...
    “It would be well to realize that the talk of ‘humane methods of warfare’, of the ‘rules of civilized warfare’, and all such homage to the finer sentiments of the race are hypocritical and unreal, and only intended for the consumption of stay-at-homes. There are no humane methods of warfare, there is no such thing as civilized warfare; all warfare is inhuman, all warfare is barbaric; the first blast of the bugles of war ever sounds for the time being the funeral knell of human progress… What lover of humanity can view with anything but horror the prospect of this ruthless destruction of human life. Yet this is war: war for which all the jingoes are howling, war to which all the hopes of the world are being sacrificed, war to which a mad ruling class would plunge a mad world.”

    "All these mountains of Irish dead, all these corpses mangled beyond recognition, all these arms, legs, eyes, ears, fingers, toes, hands, all these shivering putrefying bodies and portions of bodies once warm living and tender parts of Irish men and youths - all these horrors in Flanders or the Gallipoli Peninsula, are all items in the price Ireland pays for being part of the British Empire."


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    #53
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    A bit strong innit Marx?


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    #54
    Full Marx
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭Full Marx


    Jesus. wrote: »
    A bit strong innit Marx?

    My comments or Connollys?


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    #55
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Your post. Don't get me wrong there's something in it but its a wee bit OTT don't ye think?


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    #56
    Full Marx
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭Full Marx


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Your post. Don't get me wrong there's something in it but its a wee bit OTT don't ye think?

    No, not at all


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    #57
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Full Marx wrote: »
    The Poppy fans need to realize that there is a difference between commemorating and celebrating. The Poppy is about celebrating.

    The poppy is a symbol of remembrance, not celebrating.


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    #58
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Full Marx wrote: »
    As for the topic at hand, having instigated and contributed to the numerous threads about the British Poppy for years now the OP knows full well the controversies regarding that symbol and by extension why the Irish state does not use it.

    WW1 was a pointless waste of human life and a low point for the human race - it was imperialism at it's worst, and the working classes paid for this folly with their lives in their millions. An utterly pointless war which laid the foundations for WW2.

    I "terrorist" activity but we still get people defending them.

    The Poppy fans need to realize that there is a difference between commemorating and celebrating. The Poppy is about celebrating. And celebrating the British army will forever be offensive to their victims - and on the score the Irish are first among many.

    James Connolly had it right...

    Wow, that's some crazed rant . . . .

    I feel the anger & venum alright, but my question was always a very simple one, see page one.


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    #59
    Full Marx
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭Full Marx


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wow, that's some crazed rant . . . .

    I feel the anger & venum alright, but my question was always a very simple one, see page one.

    How about you engage with the points raised.


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    #60
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Wow, that's some crazed rant . . . .

    I feel the anger & venum alright, but my question was always a very simple one, see page one.

    The points against the poppy are relevant to any answer to the question you raised in this thread. As such your reply above does not recognise that one of the reasons for a laurel wreath is a conscious differentiation from the poppy for reasons that include those you dismiss too lightly as a "rant".


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    #61
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Full Marx wrote: »
    How about you engage with the points raised.

    Regarding the topic raised in this thread, I think the other contributors have provided enough historical background to the laurel wreath, culminating with post #49 which has helped me get a better uderstanding of the reasons for the State's reliance on the laurel wreath, vis a vis WW1 Irish Somme/Flanders commemorations.

    Your long-winded & provocative rant has very little to contribute to this topic.

    Goodnight.


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