Why does the Irish State lay Laurel wreathes at WW1 commemorations?

LordSutch

Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials? This year in particular its very noticeable at every memorial event (Somme etc) wherby President Higgins lays a green laurel wreath beside a throng of Poppy wreaths. I used to go to St patrick's Catherdral on remembrance Sunday (11th/Nov) just as the state began to recognise the Irish losses (about fifteen or sixteen years ago) and even then it struck me, why a laurel wreath? specially with all the old Irish war veterans wearing poppies and laying large poppy wreaths alongside the Presidents laurel wreath :cool:

The juxtaposition is striking.

With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

Jesus.

LordSutch wrote: »

The juxtaposition is striking.With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

There was no juxtaposition at last weeks Islandbridge event. When all the different "Allied" Countries layed their wreaths there was a whole variety of colour and size. And I'm not sure all the Countries you mention did lay poppy wreaths. The Canadian one if I can recall was a green affair.

In effect you're saying the French for example don't pay respect to their fallen because they never adopted the poppy

LordSutch

Jesus. wrote: »

There was no juxtaposition at last weeks Islandbridge event. When all the different "Allied" Countries layed their wreaths there was a whole variety of colour and size. And I'm not sure all the Countries you mention did lay poppy wreaths. The Canadian one if I can recall was a green affair.

In effect you're saying the French for example don't pay respect to their fallen because they never adopted the poppy

I understand what you're saying regarding the French, but the vast majority of the Irish soldiers in the Great War fought in ther British army, hence the long tradition by ex Irish soldiers/families + their associates to lay poppy wreaths. The laurel wreath is a relatively modern twist which coincides with the State finally recognising the Irish dead from WW1, most of whom fell on the poppy fields of flanders. I think the laurel wreath has something to do with ancient Greece?

The poppy as a symbol was introduced by a Canadian general who in the following years noticed how the wild poppies grew on the battle fields where so many died (50k Irish inc).

Jesus.

I agree with you Lord Sutch that the poppy should eventually be adopted by the Free State also. I suppose its just the historical connotation it has with the British Army in Ireland & the Black & Tans etc (although the latter not actually being British Army). In time it might be used. Having said that I don't see any disrespect using a different type of wreath. Any kind of wreath shows the same level of respect imo.

Pawwed Rig

There are lots of political issues with using the poppy. To commemerate WWI I doubt many would see an issue. Unfortunately it has been hijacked for general British military use and includes unpopular and often illegal actions on tbe part of the British army.
Never mind the intolerance shown to those in the UK who choose not to wear a poppy.

LordSutch

I'm not sure there's any disrespect intended, but I would suggest a slight disconnect between the State, and the Irish families, RBL tradition & memory of those who died. Every year you have the old Irish regiments, Irish representitives & families of Irish soldiers laying poppy wreaths . . . then you have the State laying a laurel wreath.

The Somme commemorations at Islandbridge is a prime example.
http://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/British-Legion.png
http://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Islandbirdge-2014-07-12-Minister-Patrick-Hugh-Lynch-33-Small.jpg

Just an observation.

That's all.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials?.... Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

First, as a proud member of the Anglo-Irish community one would think you'd be delighted that the Irish state is now commemorating Irish-born British soldiers who used violence to achieve the aims of the British Empire you laud so frequently on this website. But that's not enough for you, is it.


The (obvious) answer? Because it is an independent Irish state, a republic, that is commemorating those British soldiers and not a member of the British Commonwealth as are all the other countries you mention. This shouldn't need explaining. Therefore, using the commemorative symbol of the British Commonwealth that is the poppy is inappropriate.

The poppy is also widely associated with the worst excesses of British jingoism and with using deaths in WW I and elsewhere to support recent British state political campaigns in Iraq and other countries. Today the poppy - or "poppy fascism" as it's frequently known as - is also used to exclude anybody in British public life - e.g. soccer players, tv panelists, etc - who refuse to honour people who fought to achieve the decidedly extremist aims of the British Empire across the planet. It is also organised by the most jingoistic of all British organisations the Royal British Legion. (former Nazi collaborators, but shhh.).

In sharp contrast, the green laurel is apolitical and part of a much older Irish tradition of commemoration of Irish-born soldiers in foreign wars. The song 'Green Grows the Laurel' is the most obvious example of this tradition. See these notes about symbolism attached to the song.

Jesus.

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any disrespect intended, but I would suggest a slight disconnect between the State, and the Irish families, RBL tradition & memory of those who died. Every year you have the old Irish regiments, Irish representitives & families of Irish soldiers laying poppy wreaths . . . then you have the State laying a laurel wreath.

Just an observation.

That's all.

Its just an observation but I'm just curious as to why you think the actual State should use a particular wreath just because a certain group chooses to do so? The State is performing this act on behalf of all the people of Ireland not just a tiny number of people related to the soldiers.

LordSutch

I've said all I need to say in my above posts, but the point I was making (re Irish commemorations) seems to be totally lost on most posters here . . . .

Anyway, it was just an observation.

Cheerio & thank's for your contributions.

riffmongous

I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google

tromtipp

Is it a laurel wreath? The First World War memorial plaque given to the next of kin of empire servicemen featured an olive wreath. A green wreath is an older piece of memorial symbolism than the poppy, and not specifically linked to one arena of conflict.

I can't post links yet, but a search for ww1 memorial medallion should give an illustration.

tromtipp

A late nineteenth century Brewer's dictionary of phrase and fable I just looked up says olive (branches or wreaths) is emblematic of peace, and laurel of 'victory and peace''. Both bits of symbolism with at least three millennia behind them, unlike the poppy.

Jesus.

LordSutch wrote: »

the point I was making (re Irish commemorations) seems to be totally lost on most posters here . . . .

I don't think it is mate to be honest

LordSutch

Jesus I said most posters, (not all) mate :cool:

I opened this thread in good faith, with a genuine question.

So thanks again, I think?

PCX

Different countries choose different wreaths to lay in respect of the war dead. Even commonwealth countries that still have the Queen as their head of state lay wreaths that are not made from poppies when remembering their dead that fought for the British Empire in WW1.

Here is a picture of the Australian Prime Minister laying a wreath to remember WW1 dead. He laid this right after Prince Charles laid a wreath of Poppies.



I imagine that the colours in the wreath are chosen because they are representative of the nation they are laid on behalf of. I really do not think that the Aussies do this as a form of insult to the war dead or anyone else.

In exactly the same way it might be considered appropriate that the President of the Republic of Ireland lays a wreath of green as that is the recognised colour that is used to represent Ireland.

Perhaps sometimes people can look for offence where none is intended. Just my take on it.

Jesus.

PCX wrote: »

Here is a picture of the Australian Prime Minister laying a wreath to remember WW1 dead.

What a disrespectful <snip>

Manach

Mod Note.
Jesus: Next time usage of such language will be a user infraction.

Jesus.

I did not use a swear word Sir. I specifically changed the spelling. Did you notice that?

LordSutch

PCX wrote: »

Perhaps sometimes people can look for offence where none is intended. Just my take on it.

Many thanks for your input. Looking back thought the thread I don't think anybody did take offence.

riffmongous wrote: »

I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google

Well indeed, that was my question.

The answer I'm getting form here is that all countries use different symbols to commemorate their fallen, and here in Ireland the State has relatively recently started to remember the Irish dead from the Great War by way of a laurel wreath, while the actual relatives of the Irish fallen, Irish military associations, ex Irish regiments etc use a different wreath.

I'll get my coat.

pedroeibar1

riffmongous wrote: »

I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google

Thread here from a couple of years ago

riffmongous

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Thread here from a couple of years ago

I remember that thread now, so a best guess would be that laurel is green and is a symbol of eternity.. meh. I would think yew would be a more interesting choice, as it ticks the other boxes but it does have some Irish symbolism, too christmassy perhaps?

p15574

Deleted User wrote: »

The poppy is also widely associated with the worst excesses of British jingoism and with using deaths in WW I and elsewhere to support recent British state political campaigns in Iraq and other countries.

I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.

Fratton Fred

p15574 wrote: »

I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.

No it doesn't, that's just little irelander bull****. A bit like the little Ireland bull**** about the RBL being Nazi collaborators, that's just something Fauranach came up with because of the blatant collaborators in the Irish republican movement.

Jesus.

p15574 wrote: »

I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.

That's a wee bit daft tbh

Kev1nDonn

and a couple of posters use it as an opportunity to attack the British.

This pathetic attitude demeans the brave Irish men who died fighting for their neighbours.

Pawwed Rig

Who attacked the British??

Although the British government (along with German, French, Italian, Russian etc) do deserve heavy criticism for sending so many young men to their deaths for what was essentially a family argument.

WWII at least was a just and noble cause to some extent (although no less horrific). WWI was a nonsense.

robp

LordSutch wrote: »

Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials? This year in particular its very noticeable at every memorial event (Somme etc) wherby President Higgins lays a green laurel wreath beside a throng of Poppy wreaths. I used to go to St patrick's Catherdral on remembrance Sunday (11th/Nov) just as the state began to recognise the Irish losses (about fifteen or sixteen years ago) and even then it struck me, why a laurel wreath? specially with all the old Irish war veterans wearing poppies and laying large poppy wreaths alongside the Presidents laurel wreath :cool:

The juxtaposition is striking.

With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

It not just recently that the State has recognised Irish losses in WW1. Both Cosgrave and De Valera supported construction of the Irish National War Memorial at considerable expense on the tax payer.

Jesus.

Kev1nDonn wrote: »

and a couple of posters use it as an opportunity to attack the British.

Please give note of the posts that did so. Because I have gone back through the thread & I cannot find the posts to which you refer Sir.

Jesus.

Jesus. wrote: »

I did not use a swear word Sir. I specifically changed the spelling. Did you notice that?

Got a yellow card for this post!!! Can my fellow posters back me up with the outright injustice of Moderators trying to shut up people they don't like especially when the person doesn't do a God dang thing wrong?

This situation on here really is farcical lads. For some reason the Mod sees himself like a bloody Dictator. Can't we all band together and tell him that this is not the way this Forum should be run? I've never liked bullies and I don't like this one either.

You'll know how much the gentleman really cares about free inquiry and indeed history itself in due course; Either he allows free speech or he deletes this post and bans me for another 3 months.

Fratton Fred

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Who attacked the British??

Although the British government (along with German, French, Italian, Russian etc) do deserve heavy criticism for sending so many young men to their deaths for what was essentially a family argument.

WWII at least was a just and noble cause to some extent (although no less horrific). WWI was a nonsense.

The family argument line is just an inaccurate, lazy, throw away statement to be honest.

Jesus.

Why did WW1 happen Fred?

Manach

Jesus. wrote: »

Got a yellow card for this post!!! Can my fellow posters back me up with the outright injustice of Moderators trying to shut up people they don't like especially when the person doesn't do a God dang thing wrong?
.

Mod Note:
The above poster has been invited to raise any such issues in the appropriate dispute resolution forum.

Fratton Fred

Jesus. wrote: »

Why did WW1 happen Fred?

Political tensions over colonies, arms race, Alsace-Lorraine, the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Germany invading Belgium and lots more.

Family argument being obviously absent.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No it doesn't, that's just little irelander bull****. A bit like the little Ireland bull**** about the RBL being Nazi collaborators, that's just something Fauranach came up with because of the blatant collaborators in the Irish republican movement.

More puerile namecalling. You're in denial again. First, as a matter of indisputable fact the poppy commemorates and supports "all generations of the Armed Forces", all of them. According to the Royal British Legion: "The money we raise from the Poppy Appeal helps us to provide practical, social and financial support to the serving and ex-service community. We support all generations of the Armed Forces and their families - today and for the rest of their lives."

That includes British soldiers who murdered children in Belfast and Derry. As Nodin has often shown (to your disapproval), it includes the British soldiers who policed what Caroline Elkins termed "Britain's Gulag" in Kenya in her Pulitzer Prize-winning book of the same title. It includes the British soldiers who partook in the mass executions of over 10,000 Kenyans during the so-called Mau Mau Revolt. And so many other British state perpetrators of mass murder.

Needless to say, the poppy money is not going to fund the families of the victims of the British Armed Forces. And yet still you persist in claiming the poppy is "not political". You've a singularly idiosyncratic understanding of the word "political". And this is all before we consider how people in British public life who object to the poppy's politics have been treated by people who share your politics, or how the commemorations have been used to recruit troops for Iraq and elsewhere.
Whether it's the treatment of Jon Snow, James McClean or its enforced use on British TV for about two months each year, it's disingenuous to deny its politics. The fact that the Royal British Legion, contender for the most jingoistic British organisation on the planet, is the organiser of poppy day month months is enough to warn most people to stay away from it as a symbol.

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

More puerile namecalling. You're in denial again. First, as a matter of indisputable fact the poppy commemorates and supports "all generations of the Armed Forces", all of them. According to the Royal British Legion: "The money we raise from the Poppy Appeal helps us to provide practical, social and financial support to the serving and ex-service community. We support all generations of the Armed Forces and their families - today and for the rest of their lives."

That includes British soldiers who murdered children in Belfast and Derry. As Nodin has often shown (to your disapproval), it includes the British soldiers who policed what Caroline Elkins termed "Britain's Gulag" in Kenya in her Pulitzer Prize-winning book of the same title. It includes the British soldiers who partook in the mass executions of over 10,000 Kenyans during the so-called Mau Mau Revolt. And so many other British state perpetrators of mass murder.

Needless to say, the poppy money is not going to fund the families of the victims of the British Armed Forces. And yet still you persist in claiming the poppy is "not political". You've a singularly idiosyncratic understanding of the word "political". And this is all before we consider how people in British public life who object to the poppy's politics have been treated by people who share your politics, or how the commemorations have been used to recruit troops for Iraq and elsewhere.
Whether it's the treatment of Jon Snow, James McClean or its enforced use on British TV for about two months each year, it's disingenuous to deny its politics. The fact that the Royal British Legion, contender for the most jingoistic British organisation on the planet, is the organiser of poppy day month months is enough to warn most people to stay away from it as a symbol.

Yawn.

Does the Easter Lilly commemorate Nazi collaborators, child killers and pedophiles?

pinkypinky

The poppy only commemorates military personnel killed in the war and not the many many civilians. They also deserve to be remembered.

whisky_galore

Jesus. wrote: »

I agree with you Lord Sutch that the poppy should eventually be adopted by the Free State also.

Thought I had been magically transported back in time there.

It's a good thing that any wreath at all is being laid. I really don't care what vegetation is used in the make up of the wreath.

Arsemageddon

Apollo is usually depicted wearing a laurel wreath on his head. The reason for this is because he took the micky out of Cupid, so Cupid made Apollo fall in love with Daphne while at the same time he made Daphne despise Apollo. Apollo kept trying to get off with Daphne but she kept telling him to feck off. Eventually she asked the gods to change her form so that Apollo would leave her be, so they turned her into a laurel. Apollo then fashioned a wreath of laurels and wore it to remind him of her.


The Greeks used the laurel wreath as a civic award. The Romans saw themselves as successors to the Greeks and adopted many elements of Greek culture, including the Laurel. The Roman version of a military medal was a Corona (a crown) which obviously enough was worn on the head. The Corona was made from different material depending on what it was being awarded for The highest military honour a Roman general could receive was to be awarded a Triumph. The corona for this was called a corona triumphalis and was made from laurels.

Since then the laurel wreath has been used extensively in military iconography and national flags form the coat of arms of Portugal, North Korean military flags and the flag of the UN. On the Arc de Triomphe Napoleon is depicted being crowned with a laurel wreath by Nike/Victoria (goddess of victory). In Berlin, the statue of Victoria at the top of the victory column holds aloft a laurel wreath.

The laurel wreath is also depicted on numerous Irish military medals and as far as I'm aware has been used in military commemorations since the foundation of the State. Queen Elizabeth laid a laurel wreath at the garden of remembrance, JFK also laid one at Arbour Hill when he visited Ireland.

Arsemageddon

whisky_galore wrote: »

I really don't care what vegetation is used in the make up of the wreath.

.........and we will now have the solemn laying of the traditional wreath of brussel sprouts......

It just doesn't have the same ring to it.

LordSutch

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The Greeks used the laurel wreath as a civic award. The Romans saw themselves as successors to the Greeks and adopted many elements of Greek culture, including the Laurel. The Roman version of a military medal was a Corona (a crown) which obviously enough was worn on the head. ...........

Since then the laurel wreath has been used extensively in military iconography and national flags form the coat of arms of Portugal, North Korean military flags and the flag of the UN. On the Arc de Triomphe Napoleon is depicted being crowned with a laurel wreath by Nike/Victoria (goddess of victory). ............

The laurel wreath is also depicted on numerous Irish military medals and as far as I'm aware has been used .......... etc

Firstly thanks very much for that educational post, it really is what the history forum is all about. I do get everything you say, and I fully agree with your thrust (the origins are fascinating), but regarding my very specific & nuanced question (posts 1 & 6) what say you? I'm not looking for a solution, but maybe a reason for the juxtaposition as we see it. So I think it good that the State lays a laurel wreath, and I am not saying that the State should lay a poppy wreath either, but I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism).

I just want your thoughts really.
Thanks in advance.

Owryan

Unless someone asks each family then we ll probably never know.

Maybe there are a wide range of reasons, perhaps some families have always used a poppy and the tradition has been handed down. It could be that since for a long time there was no state recognition for the dead of WWI that some families felt that the only way to remember their loved one was to use a poppy. That the poppy is closely associated with WWI could be another reason.

Personally, im glad the state now recognises and remember all its war dead. At the end of the day its the act of remembrance rather than the colour of the wreath that matters.

Jesus.

LordSutch wrote: »

I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism). .

Connotations etc. Fred drew up the Easter Lilly earlier. The descendants & various other groups use it for Easter Rising commemorations. Simply because of that, do you think the State should automatically adopt it also?

LordSutch

Please lets not get into another discussion about the Easter Lilly, lets stay on the thread topic.

Jesus.

It ties in with what I said earlier on. You seem to be of the view that because a small unrepresentative group adopt a symbol, that the State should automatically do so also.

Jesus. wrote: »

Its just an observation but I'm just curious as to why you think the actual State should use a particular wreath just because a certain group chooses to do so? The State is performing this act on behalf of all the people of Ireland not just a tiny number of people related to the soldiers.

LordSutch

Jesus. wrote: »

It ties in with what I said earlier on. You seem to be of the view that because a small unrepresentative group adopt a symbol, that the State should automatically do so also.

Jesus may I suggest you study the wording more closely in post no 40.

Jesus.

I studied it very closely, Lord Sutch, and tried to illuminate to you as to why a poppy might not necessarily be appropriate; connotations etc. I gave you an alternative example but you told me not to use it!

LordSutch

Your alternative being to replace the poppy/laurel wreaths with a wreath of Easter Lillies.

Not sure about that.

Republicans use the Easter lily as a symbol for the Rebels who died on Easter week 1916, but I can't see how you could extend the lily to cover all those Irish soldiers who died on Flanders poppy fields.

Jesus.

LordSutch wrote: »

Your alternative being to replace the poppy/laurel wreaths with a wreath of Easter Lillies.Not sure about that.Republicans use the Easter lily as a symbol for the Rebels who died on Easter week 1916, but I can't see how you could extend the lily to cover all those Irish soldiers who died on Flanders poppy fields.

With respect M'Lord, what on earth are you talking about? That's the craziest idea I've ever heard.

Arsemageddon

LordSutch wrote: »

Firstly thanks very much for that educational post, it really is what the history forum is all about. I do get everything you say, and I fully agree with your thrust (the origins are fascinating), but regarding my very specific & nuanced question (posts 1 & 6) what say you? I'm not looking for a solution, but maybe a reason for the juxtaposition as we see it. So I think it good that the State lays a laurel wreath, and I am not saying that the State should lay a poppy wreath either, but I do pose a genuine question that hasn't really been answered so far in this thread (as to why the difference between Irish family symbolism & Irish state symbolism).

I just want your thoughts really.
Thanks in advance.

I suppose that the obvious answer to your question is that the state has opted to stick with the type of wreath that has traditionally been used in military commemorations worldwide and has been in use since the foundation of the state. The laurel wreath has the benefit of being pretty neutral. Like it or not, there are people who would be genuinely offended if the state were to use the poppy at official functions. The lily is not used for the same reason. Non state groups and private individuals are free to use the poppy or any flower they choose.

Here's a link for a picture showing singer John McCormick laying a wreath at the Leinster Lawn Cenotaph (built to commemorate Collins and Griffith). Laurel wreaths are visible leaning against the monument. The picture is undated but must have been taken between 1923 and 1928 as the plaque commemorating Kevin O'Higgins has not been installed.
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000194535



The Aussies and Kiwis traditionally used the laurel wreath for commemorations, but they seem to have adopted the poppy in the last few years for ANZAC commemorations (or a laurel wreath decorated with a few poppies.

Selling the poppy was still widespread in the Republic up until the Troubles. A few years ago a friend of my dad who was in the RAF in WW2 told me he stopped wearing a poppy after Bloody Sunday because he was so angry about what happened that day.

Jesus.

COI churches still sell it on Remembrance Sunday

Arsemageddon

By widespread I mean that there were lads selling poppies on street corners and pubs and the like.