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Why does the Irish State lay Laurel wreathes at WW1 commemorations?

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  • 17-07-2016 7:50am
    #1
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭


    Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials? This year in particular its very noticeable at every memorial event (Somme etc) wherby President Higgins lays a green laurel wreath beside a throng of Poppy wreaths. I used to go to St patrick's Catherdral on remembrance Sunday (11th/Nov) just as the state began to recognise the Irish losses (about fifteen or sixteen years ago) and even then it struck me, why a laurel wreath? specially with all the old Irish war veterans wearing poppies and laying large poppy wreaths alongside the Presidents laurel wreath :cool:

    The juxtaposition is striking.

    With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?


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    #2
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The juxtaposition is striking.With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

    There was no juxtaposition at last weeks Islandbridge event. When all the different "Allied" Countries layed their wreaths there was a whole variety of colour and size. And I'm not sure all the Countries you mention did lay poppy wreaths. The Canadian one if I can recall was a green affair.

    In effect you're saying the French for example don't pay respect to their fallen because they never adopted the poppy


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    #3
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Jesus. wrote: »
    There was no juxtaposition at last weeks Islandbridge event. When all the different "Allied" Countries layed their wreaths there was a whole variety of colour and size. And I'm not sure all the Countries you mention did lay poppy wreaths. The Canadian one if I can recall was a green affair.

    In effect you're saying the French for example don't pay respect to their fallen because they never adopted the poppy

    I understand what you're saying regarding the French, but the vast majority of the Irish soldiers in the Great War fought in ther British army, hence the long tradition by ex Irish soldiers/families + their associates to lay poppy wreaths. The laurel wreath is a relatively modern twist which coincides with the State finally recognising the Irish dead from WW1, most of whom fell on the poppy fields of flanders. I think the laurel wreath has something to do with ancient Greece?

    The poppy as a symbol was introduced by a Canadian general who in the following years noticed how the wild poppies grew on the battle fields where so many died (50k Irish inc).


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    #4
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    I agree with you Lord Sutch that the poppy should eventually be adopted by the Free State also. I suppose its just the historical connotation it has with the British Army in Ireland & the Black & Tans etc (although the latter not actually being British Army). In time it might be used. Having said that I don't see any disrespect using a different type of wreath. Any kind of wreath shows the same level of respect imo.


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    #5
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,301 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    There are lots of political issues with using the poppy. To commemerate WWI I doubt many would see an issue. Unfortunately it has been hijacked for general British military use and includes unpopular and often illegal actions on tbe part of the British army.
    Never mind the intolerance shown to those in the UK who choose not to wear a poppy.


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    #6
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I'm not sure there's any disrespect intended, but I would suggest a slight disconnect between the State, and the Irish families, RBL tradition & memory of those who died. Every year you have the old Irish regiments, Irish representitives & families of Irish soldiers laying poppy wreaths . . . then you have the State laying a laurel wreath.

    The Somme commemorations at Islandbridge is a prime example.
    http://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/British-Legion.png
    http://www.decadeofcentenaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Islandbirdge-2014-07-12-Minister-Patrick-Hugh-Lynch-33-Small.jpg

    Just an observation.

    That's all.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials?.... Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?

    First, as a proud member of the Anglo-Irish community one would think you'd be delighted that the Irish state is now commemorating Irish-born British soldiers who used violence to achieve the aims of the British Empire you laud so frequently on this website. But that's not enough for you, is it.


    The (obvious) answer? Because it is an independent Irish state, a republic, that is commemorating those British soldiers and not a member of the British Commonwealth as are all the other countries you mention. This shouldn't need explaining. Therefore, using the commemorative symbol of the British Commonwealth that is the poppy is inappropriate.

    The poppy is also widely associated with the worst excesses of British jingoism and with using deaths in WW I and elsewhere to support recent British state political campaigns in Iraq and other countries. Today the poppy - or "poppy fascism" as it's frequently known as - is also used to exclude anybody in British public life - e.g. soccer players, tv panelists, etc - who refuse to honour people who fought to achieve the decidedly extremist aims of the British Empire across the planet. It is also organised by the most jingoistic of all British organisations the Royal British Legion. (former Nazi collaborators, but shhh.).

    In sharp contrast, the green laurel is apolitical and part of a much older Irish tradition of commemoration of Irish-born soldiers in foreign wars. The song 'Green Grows the Laurel' is the most obvious example of this tradition. See these notes about symbolism attached to the song.


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    #8
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'm not sure there's any disrespect intended, but I would suggest a slight disconnect between the State, and the Irish families, RBL tradition & memory of those who died. Every year you have the old Irish regiments, Irish representitives & families of Irish soldiers laying poppy wreaths . . . then you have the State laying a laurel wreath.

    Just an observation.

    That's all.

    Its just an observation but I'm just curious as to why you think the actual State should use a particular wreath just because a certain group chooses to do so? The State is performing this act on behalf of all the people of Ireland not just a tiny number of people related to the soldiers.


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    #9
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I've said all I need to say in my above posts, but the point I was making (re Irish commemorations) seems to be totally lost on most posters here . . . .

    Anyway, it was just an observation.

    Cheerio & thank's for your contributions.


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    #10
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google


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    #11
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    Is it a laurel wreath? The First World War memorial plaque given to the next of kin of empire servicemen featured an olive wreath. A green wreath is an older piece of memorial symbolism than the poppy, and not specifically linked to one arena of conflict.

    I can't post links yet, but a search for ww1 memorial medallion should give an illustration.


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    #12
    tromtipp
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭tromtipp


    A late nineteenth century Brewer's dictionary of phrase and fable I just looked up says olive (branches or wreaths) is emblematic of peace, and laurel of 'victory and peace''. Both bits of symbolism with at least three millennia behind them, unlike the poppy.


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    #13
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    the point I was making (re Irish commemorations) seems to be totally lost on most posters here . . . .

    I don't think it is mate to be honest


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    #14
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Jesus I said most posters, (not all) mate :cool:

    I opened this thread in good faith, with a genuine question.

    So thanks again, I think?


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    #15
    PCX
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭PCX


    Different countries choose different wreaths to lay in respect of the war dead. Even commonwealth countries that still have the Queen as their head of state lay wreaths that are not made from poppies when remembering their dead that fought for the British Empire in WW1.

    Here is a picture of the Australian Prime Minister laying a wreath to remember WW1 dead. He laid this right after Prince Charles laid a wreath of Poppies.

    2E5265B500000578-3312961-image-a-118_1447207330741.jpg

    I imagine that the colours in the wreath are chosen because they are representative of the nation they are laid on behalf of. I really do not think that the Aussies do this as a form of insult to the war dead or anyone else.

    In exactly the same way it might be considered appropriate that the President of the Republic of Ireland lays a wreath of green as that is the recognised colour that is used to represent Ireland.

    Perhaps sometimes people can look for offence where none is intended. Just my take on it.


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    #16
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    PCX wrote: »
    Here is a picture of the Australian Prime Minister laying a wreath to remember WW1 dead.

    What a disrespectful <snip>


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    #17
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,671 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Mod Note.
    Jesus: Next time usage of such language will be a user infraction.


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    #18
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    I did not use a swear word Sir. I specifically changed the spelling. Did you notice that?


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    #19
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    PCX wrote: »
    Perhaps sometimes people can look for offence where none is intended. Just my take on it.

    Many thanks for your input. Looking back thought the thread I don't think anybody did take offence.
    riffmongous wrote: »
    I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google

    Well indeed, that was my question.

    The answer I'm getting form here is that all countries use different symbols to commemorate their fallen, and here in Ireland the State has relatively recently started to remember the Irish dead from the Great War by way of a laurel wreath, while the actual relatives of the Irish fallen, Irish military associations, ex Irish regiments etc use a different wreath.

    I'll get my coat.


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    #20
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    riffmongous wrote: »
    I am curious as to where the use of laurel comes from though? There doesn't seem to be a huge irish laurel tradition from what I could see from google

    Thread here from a couple of years ago


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    #21
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Thread here from a couple of years ago
    I remember that thread now, so a best guess would be that laurel is green and is a symbol of eternity.. meh. I would think yew would be a more interesting choice, as it ticks the other boxes but it does have some Irish symbolism, too christmassy perhaps?


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    #22
    p15574
    Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭p15574


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The poppy is also widely associated with the worst excesses of British jingoism and with using deaths in WW I and elsewhere to support recent British state political campaigns in Iraq and other countries.

    I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.


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    #23
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    p15574 wrote: »
    I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.

    No it doesn't, that's just little irelander bull****. A bit like the little Ireland bull**** about the RBL being Nazi collaborators, that's just something Fauranach came up with because of the blatant collaborators in the Irish republican movement.


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    #24
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    p15574 wrote: »
    I agree. I would be very offended if a poppy wreath was used, or if they started wearing poppies on RTE. It doesn't just honour the WW1 masses sent to their deaths by generals behind the lines, it also seeks to legitimise more recent illegal war(s), and is a very 'British' (or Commonwealth) symbol.

    That's a wee bit daft tbh


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    #25
    Kev1nDonn
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Kev1nDonn


    and a couple of posters use it as an opportunity to attack the British.

    This pathetic attitude demeans the brave Irish men who died fighting for their neighbours.


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    #26
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,301 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Who attacked the British??

    Although the British government (along with German, French, Italian, Russian etc) do deserve heavy criticism for sending so many young men to their deaths for what was essentially a family argument.

    WWII at least was a just and noble cause to some extent (although no less horrific). WWI was a nonsense.


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    #27
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Have always wondered why the Irish State only ever lays laurel wreathes at 1st World war memorials? This year in particular its very noticeable at every memorial event (Somme etc) wherby President Higgins lays a green laurel wreath beside a throng of Poppy wreaths. I used to go to St patrick's Catherdral on remembrance Sunday (11th/Nov) just as the state began to recognise the Irish losses (about fifteen or sixteen years ago) and even then it struck me, why a laurel wreath? specially with all the old Irish war veterans wearing poppies and laying large poppy wreaths alongside the Presidents laurel wreath :cool:

    The juxtaposition is striking.

    With regard to where so many Irish men died, what's the significance of the laurel in relation to the poppy fields of Flanders? Why can't the state pay the same respect to the fallen as those Irish, British, Australian, Canadian, New Zealand, etc people who lay poppy wreaths?
    It not just recently that the State has recognised Irish losses in WW1. Both Cosgrave and De Valera supported construction of the Irish National War Memorial at considerable expense on the tax payer.


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    #28
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Kev1nDonn wrote: »
    and a couple of posters use it as an opportunity to attack the British.

    Please give note of the posts that did so. Because I have gone back through the thread & I cannot find the posts to which you refer Sir.


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    #29
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Jesus. wrote: »
    I did not use a swear word Sir. I specifically changed the spelling. Did you notice that?

    Got a yellow card for this post!!! Can my fellow posters back me up with the outright injustice of Moderators trying to shut up people they don't like especially when the person doesn't do a God dang thing wrong?

    This situation on here really is farcical lads. For some reason the Mod sees himself like a bloody Dictator. Can't we all band together and tell him that this is not the way this Forum should be run? I've never liked bullies and I don't like this one either.

    You'll know how much the gentleman really cares about free inquiry and indeed history itself in due course; Either he allows free speech or he deletes this post and bans me for another 3 months.


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    #30
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Who attacked the British??

    Although the British government (along with German, French, Italian, Russian etc) do deserve heavy criticism for sending so many young men to their deaths for what was essentially a family argument.

    WWII at least was a just and noble cause to some extent (although no less horrific). WWI was a nonsense.

    The family argument line is just an inaccurate, lazy, throw away statement to be honest.


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    #31
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Why did WW1 happen Fred?


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