Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

L1011 · 13-11-2016 9:18pm

Just had some records make an arse out of what I thought was set in stone (from paper genealogy done by a great uncle prior to the 1990s)

Looking to get a second set of eyes on the May 4th 1890 marriage between Richard Grogan and Mary Keely here:

http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633720#page/57/mode/1up

I'm absolutely certain this is the right couple - the husbands address is "Greystones Station" and he was a DSER employee and the witnesses are other relations of mine from that era.

Mothers surname for him I thought was Dunne but looks like Baskin there? Parents names and address for the bride are what I really want though - James Keely and Bridget Devlin and Blackrock Dublin are my best guesses.

L1011 · 13-11-2016 9:26pm

Cross referencing and the husbands mothers name is definitely Dunne unless she forgot every single time she gave birth (and also the only marriage match)...

oceanclub · 13-11-2016 10:05pm

lottpaul wrote: »

I presume Byrne would be the maiden name also -- it would be a very common name in Wicklow afaik.

Could the godmother be Eliza Merna (sometimes Mernagh)?

Yes, going through the Rathdrum parish records, it's _very_ common - Byrnes on every page.

Also baffled as I can find my great-grandmother Mary's siblings (Michael above in 1862, Bridget in 1865, Jane in 1871) but no luck finding her. (According to her death cert, born in 1862, according to the censuses, anytime between 1857 and 1862).

P.

KildareFan · 13-11-2016 10:08pm

was she married twice by any chance? Also, note that mistakes in names were corrected on the same page, so it could be a mistake.

L1011 · 13-11-2016 10:15pm

Found the female witness for that marriage - her sister, as I had from before - birth cert - Devlin and Blackrock it is then. I don't want to add up how much I spent chasing the inaccurate line there pre-GRO/NLI changes >.<

oceanclub · 18-11-2016 1:03am

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

KildareFan · 18-11-2016 1:55am

oceanclub wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

In presence of....

You'd have to check other marriages to see if the last name John McGrath recurs in which case he is probably the celebrant.

tabbey · 18-11-2016 9:56am

oceanclub wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/Krl9NIR.jpg

Seems to read:

Matt Leary and Maria (corrected to Mary) Creaton were joined in marriage in ??????? of John Leary & Sarah Gleeson & John McGrath

Not sure if I'm missing something here; I presume two of those people are witnesses, is one the priest?

P.

Lots of older marriages had three witnesses,

usually two male and one female, occasionally three men, on one record I saw three women.

The idea of having two men was that if the marriage ended up in court, civil or ecclesiastic, there would be one man for each party to the marriage, thereby saving the bridesmaid the difficult task of giving evidence.

It is for this reason that the Church of Ireland made it more specific; Witness for the husband, Witness for the wife. RC records of course were much more informal.

pinkypinky · 18-11-2016 12:37pm

I've never seen any marriage with 3 witnesses recorded: that's very interesting.

KildareFan · 18-11-2016 12:46pm

I've seen several in my excursions through the church marriage registers.

montgo · 18-11-2016 12:49pm

I've seen 3 witnesses many times on marriage records, also A.N. other, A.N. other + others:)

oceanclub · 18-11-2016 2:21pm

KildareFan wrote: »

In presence of....

You'd have to check other marriages to see if the last name John McGrath recurs in which case he is probably the celebrant.

Yup, you're right, he was the priest.

montgo · 25-11-2016 10:31am

Hi,
Another deciphering query - on William Davoren's (Davern) death record (4th record from bottom of page), where is he from and what was his occupation?
If the name of his home place begins with P, could be Palmerston. Occupation? Nailor???

spurious · 25-11-2016 10:55am

Looks like Palmerston to me and 'Nailor + discharged soldier(?)'

pinkypinky · 25-11-2016 10:58am

All I can see is the words you've suggested!

It might be a B not a P though.

pedroeibar1 · 25-11-2016 11:07am

I’d agree on Palmerston. It does look like ‘Nailor’ and under that ‘discharged xxxxxx (builder?) Cause of death was Cardiac disease, 3 months certified.

montgo · 25-11-2016 11:47am

Thanks guys. I'm not sure that this is the William Davern that I'm looking for. Will keep searching.

pedroeibar1 · 25-11-2016 11:53am

Palmerston is an area in Limerick city. FWIW, Davern is a name I'd immediately associate with Cashel, Co. Tipp.

tabbey · 26-11-2016 12:07am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Palmerston is an area in Limerick city. FWIW, Davern is a name I'd immediately associate with Cashel, Co. Tipp.

Yes, we usually associate Davern with Cashel, because Noel Davern TD was from there, I think his family were the proprietors of the Davern Bar & restaurant in Cashel, popular with people driving from Dublin to Cork as it was midway between the two cities.

The name seemed most common in mid Tipperary and East Limerick, but was also found in Clare and Galway.

tabbey · 26-11-2016 12:13am

spurious wrote: »

Looks like Palmerston to me and 'Nailor + discharged soldier(?)'

Definitely Palmerston (place) & Nailor. Discharged soldier could perhaps be discharged sailor.

Leeside · 26-11-2016 12:36pm

Any suggestion on the cause of death here?

Haemorrhage result of ......... self inflicted whilst insane.

http://i.imgur.com/q1T9Q3R.jpg

montgo · 26-11-2016 12:50pm

Thanks Tabby & Pedro.
I was looking for parents of James Davern b. 1857 in Kilteely, parents William & Ellen Breen. On parish register, William was recorded as a butcher. I have since found 2 more baptisms/births in Ballylanders to the same named parents. Micheal born 1870, father William a nailor!! So maybe it is him, after all. Tkx again.

mickmackey1 · 26-11-2016 1:20pm

Leeside wrote: »

Any suggestion on the cause of death here?

Haemorrhage result of ......... self inflicted whilst insane.

http://i.imgur.com/q1T9Q3R.jpg

nail in throat, lovely

Leeside · 26-11-2016 1:47pm

mickmackey1 wrote: »

nail in throat, lovely

Thanks for suggestion. All the letter 'i"s are dotted in the rest of the writing and if you're correct the word 'nail' doesn't have one.

I thought originally it read 'a cut in throat' and that seems unlikely. I don't see the word 'nail' as being correct either though.

BowWow · 26-11-2016 2:31pm

My take -

Leeside wrote: »

Haemorrhage result of "a cut in throat"......... self inflicted whilst insane.

mickmackey1 · 26-11-2016 2:33pm

Just beat me to it - you're spot on.

Leeside · 26-11-2016 4:05pm

I'll take it so as reading 'a cut in throat'. Cheers!

montgo · 01-12-2016 1:55am

Can someone make out what Kate's profession was on this marriage record -(last record on the page)?

tabbey · 01-12-2016 9:54am

montgo wrote: »

Can someone make out what Kate's profession was on this marriage record -(last record on the page)?

Fr daughter = farmer's daughter.

montgo · 01-12-2016 10:58am

Cheers, too tired to see it last night! Tkx

VirginiaB · 01-12-2016 4:45pm

Bravo. I was totally flummoxed on that one.

Boscod · 03-12-2016 1:06pm

Looking for help to identify the location of the church in this marriage. Many thanks.
John_Doyle_1893.PNG

shanew · 03-12-2016 2:29pm

Boscod wrote: »

Looking for help to identify the location of the church in this marriage. Many thanks.
John_Doyle_1893.PNG

"St James Church Rawtenstall", which is in Lancashire (Catholic Directory UK & IRL) north of Manchester & Salford and not far from Blackburn and Preston.

shanew · 03-12-2016 2:32pm

from FreeBMD

Year/Quarter : 1922 / June
Volume : 8e / Page 304
Reg. District : Haslington (Lancs.), which includes Rawtenstall civil parish
names include a John Doyle and Norah Jackson

oceanclub · 05-12-2016 12:09am

Would appreciate help on these two:

http://i.imgur.com/0okpDtR.png

http://i.imgur.com/TZYwRme.png

Two records for a John Wixted & Biddy Bradshaw, 4 years apart. I'm guessing that one is possibly my great-great-grandparents, John Wixted & Catherine Bradshaw. Can anyone make out the other text in each?

"Married by ???? John Wixted to Biddy Bradshaw. ??? John Bradshaw Johanna O'Brien ??? Jimmy Keefe"

"Ditto (refers to date) married by Ditto John Wixted to Biddy Bradshaw, in presense of John Wixted, Michael ???? & Tom Ryan"

P.

tabbey · 05-12-2016 9:52am

oceanclub wrote: »

Would appreciate help on these two:

http://i.imgur.com/0okpDtR.png

http://i.imgur.com/TZYwRme.png

Two records for a John Wixted & Biddy Bradshaw, 4 years apart. I'm guessing that one is possibly my great-great-grandparents, John Wixted & Catherine Bradshaw. Can anyone make out the other text in each?

"Married by ???? John Wixted to Biddy Bradshaw. ??? John Bradshaw Johanna O'Brien ??? Jimmy Keefe"

"Ditto (refers to date) married by Ditto John Wixted to Biddy Bradshaw, in presense of John Wixted, Michael ???? & Tom Ryan"

P.

writing seems quite clear.

If Biddy died and John then married her sister or cousin Catherine, the priest might have accidentally written the name of the deceased first wife.

Technically it was illegal for a widower to marry the sister of the first wife, but most people would consider this unfair, so may have ignored the statute.

oceanclub · 05-12-2016 11:22am

tabbey wrote: »

writing seems quite clear.

If Biddy died and John then married her sister or cousin Catherine, the priest might have accidentally written the name of the deceased first wife.

Technically it was illegal for a widower to marry the sister of the first wife, but most people would consider this unfair, so may have ignored the statute.

Interesting theory! Might see if there are any death records from then (from chattting with a distant cousin discovered from that side of family I don't think so).

P.

montgo · 14-12-2016 1:31pm

Baptism record for 21 April 1812, bottom half, left side of page.

I just wanted to confirm that Phil & Pat must have been twins. And the Sponsors were Edm'd Rafferty and Cath(erine) C..... Croagh or ?? (Gurtakilleen). I'm guessing that the next line were Pat's sponsors - maybe Carolo (Charles?) Caroll, some letters & Elena Cormack.

thanks for your help.

pinkypinky · 14-12-2016 1:39pm

I'd concur with all of that.

pedroeibar1 · 14-12-2016 3:20pm

Phil & Pat ex Thoma Realy & Margarita
Treacy Spr Edm Rafferty &
Catha Cloagh (Gurtakilleen)
Carolo Carrol Ellena Cormac

ps the letters are the top of the date from the next line?

montgo · 14-12-2016 8:48pm

Thanks guys.

Alan259 · 18-12-2016 12:22am

I'm wondering what people think it says under the age for the groom. It is the marriage of Patrick Forde and Anne Fox, the second entry on this page: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1929/09062/5278503.pdf

spurious · 18-12-2016 12:38am

Alan259 wrote: »

I'm wondering what people think it says under the age for the groom. It is the marriage of Patrick Forde and Anne Fox, the second entry on this page: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1929/09062/5278503.pdf

It looks like it says 'aged' which is odd, usually they just put 'full'.

tabbey · 18-12-2016 1:08am

Alan259 wrote: »

I'm wondering what people think it says under the age for the groom. It is the marriage of Patrick Forde and Anne Fox, the second entry on this page: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1929/09062/5278503.pdf

Aged 27.

The groom, the bride or both are aged 27. Take your pick.

spurious · 18-12-2016 1:45am

Looking at the census, Patrick (or a person matching his address and father's name) was 31 in 1911.

Alan259 · 19-12-2016 12:30am

spurious wrote: »

It looks like it says 'aged' which is odd, usually they just put 'full'.

That's what I was thinking. Why the priest recorded 'aged' instead of 'full' confused me. The census link you posted was the correct one, the groom would have been 48 on his wedding day. Maybe it was just the age difference between the couple which prompted the priest to write 'aged' down for the groom.

tabbey wrote: »

Aged 27.

The groom, the bride or both are aged 27. Take your pick.

But the word which is down for the groom and the number which is down for the bride are both on their separate lines though. As well as that, it looks like their is a full stop after both the word and the number.

Thanks to both of you for your replies, second and third opinions are vital for Irish genealogy research.

Cul a cnoic · 21-12-2016 9:33pm

Hi,
A dedication on a book from Rev James Connolly but who is it to I am having difficulty with. Joseph(?) Dob....

Thanks for looking.

pinkypinky · 21-12-2016 9:53pm

The rest of the surname looks like -obinson.

montgo · 21-12-2016 10:14pm

Yes appears to be Dobinson.

I need help with this one.
Here is a rather difficult to decipher baptism record - bottom of right hand page.
March 9, James? of Owen Magrath, Ashfield, farmer? & ???????
Can anyone make out anything else?
Thanks.

tabbey · 21-12-2016 10:14pm

Cul a cnoic wrote: »

Hi,
A dedication on a book from Rev James Connolly but who is it to I am having difficulty with. Joseph(?) Dob....

Thanks for looking.

Seems to be Dobinson. The "b" and the "s" compare with those in Feby and James.

The surname Dobinson is an English one derived from the Norman D'Aubin.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page