News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

InTheTrees · 18-06-2010 11:13pm

A picture is worth a thousand words, Thanks!

darter · 18-06-2010 11:43pm

InTheTrees wrote: »

A picture is worth a thousand words, Thanks!

Pan to the left and show the mess still from the concrete plant and the land lost and being lost from the North Beach subsidence...

A picture can also tell a thousand lies...

pixbyjohn · 18-06-2010 11:56pm

There is enough negativity without me adding to it. Its going to be a place of beauty when the harbour works are finished.

Dunphus · 19-06-2010 12:32am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

You seem to be in the site there, hope you had your PPE on

Nice pic

darter · 19-06-2010 12:43am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Its going to be a place of beauty when the harbour works are finished.

Pity I only have "three score years and ten", and I've used up quite a bit of my allocation already... Ah well, at least our grandchildren will look back kindly on us...

pixbyjohn · 19-06-2010 10:31am

Dunphus wrote: »

You seem to be in the site there, hope you had your PPE on

Nice pic

I was in the area where the temporary slip is and which is used by all the clubs to launch their boats, kayaks etc. when the gates are open for the public.
Always have my personal protective equipment.

Blanchflower · 19-06-2010 11:30am

darter wrote: »

Pan to the left and show the mess still from the concrete plant and the land lost and being lost from the North Beach subsidence...

A picture can also tell a thousand lies...

The site is generally very untidy and has the look of a cash strapped development. Following the bursting of the property bubble it is not a going concern and will most likely never be properly completed.

pixbyjohn · 19-06-2010 12:27pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

The site is generally very untidy and has the look of a cash strapped development. Following the bursting of the property bubble it is not a going concern and will most likely never be properly completed.

same old same old

darter · 19-06-2010 6:17pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

same old same old

the sun rises in the east - same old same old
the pope is catholic - same old same old
irish developers always leave a mess - same old same old
irish bankers are not paying for their mess - same old same old
greystones is going to be screwed for years to come because of the harbour development - same old same old

Just because it has been said many times before does not make it any less truthful...

What is becoming "old" though is the constant whining and moaning without any action to follow it up. Not sure what can be done, but we are all being kept in the dark by the Council and SisPar about the future plans.

Welsh Wizard · 19-06-2010 8:14pm

Personally I can't wait for it to be finished... better than the old crappy, smelly excuse of a harbour we had...

Least then people might stop moaning about it all... but I wont hold my breath..

Oh and BTW Building sites are normally messy till they are finished..

Nice pic by the way...

pixbyjohn · 19-06-2010 8:31pm

darter wrote: »

What is becoming "old" though is the constant whining and moaning without any action to follow it up.

Who are the constant whiners and moaners, will you answer me that please ?

loyatemu · 19-06-2010 9:35pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

Who are the constant whiners and moaners, will you answer me that please ?

no, don't answer that, this thread will just end up as another one with a big lock under it. The arguments have been done to death here already.

thecommander · 19-06-2010 9:52pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

The site is generally very untidy and has the look of a cash strapped development.

Are you still on holiday here or have you given up on the "Im just a tourist" angle?

darter · 19-06-2010 10:33pm

loyatemu wrote: »

no, don't answer that, this thread will just end up as another one with a big lock under it. The arguments have been done to death here already.

Thank you Mod for that timely reminder...

We all want this thread to stay open and alive to keep everyone informed about the harbour developments, and not suffer from being locked like all other such threads.

I'll endeavour to try to abide by own admonitions that I made in the very first post of this thread, and to not get drawn into futile argument, appealing though that may be...

darter wrote: »

I'd like to start a thread that collects news and views on Greystones harbour and marina. Given the demonstrated eager propensity of the large-handed moderators to close anything down quickly if it strays from the topic of the OP, I ask that all of you who want to discuss anything other than "News and views on Greystones harbour and marina" do it in a separate thread. That way perhaps we can avoid the thread being closed whilst there are still very active participants providing useful information to the community...

I will initiate the thread by saying that although I was against the development that was on principle - the principle being that this is the first time that public beach land in Ireland has been given over to a developer, and that it should not have been counternanced without the State becoming involved - as in the "real" politicians rather than our municipal ones. Now that it is happening, I have "moved on", and welcome its completion as I do think it will add significantly to Greystones.

Please add your news (state the facts and reference the sources) and views (fact-less), but please keep to the topic of the thread.

darter

LEIN · 19-06-2010 11:18pm

darter, as Mods we like to see discussion flow and in the majority of cases they are fine but when things start getting a little personal we need to act before a flame war breaks out and things get out of hand.

Hope you can understand our position.

Fiachra2 · 21-06-2010 10:35am

Wicklow County Council recently proposed two changes to the housing element of the plan. The first involved replacing some of the housing units (which obviously will not be built inn the near term) with a medical centre. This was probably an acceptable change and would have facilitated the removal of some of the hoarding in the harbour area.
The second however involved increasing the total number of houses back up to the level originally proposed. A level which An Bord Pleanala had deemed unacceptably high. This seemed rather odd given that they are not going to build the housing for some time. Anyway, not unsurprisingly, the Bord has advised the council that if they wish to do this then the must prepare a new Environmental Impact Statement. This will of course draw objections from the public and may lead to a significant delay in bringing the works to some sort of a conclusion.

Blanchflower · 21-06-2010 1:26pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Wicklow County Council recently proposed two changes to the housing element of the plan. The first involved replacing some of the housing units (which obviously will not be built inn the near term) with a medical centre. This was probably an acceptable change and would have facilitated the removal of some of the hoarding in the harbour area.
The second however involved increasing the total number of houses back up to the level originally proposed. A level which An Bord Pleanala had deemed unacceptably high. This seemed rather odd given that they are not going to build the housing for some time. Anyway, not unsurprisingly, the Bord has advised the council that if they wish to do this then the must prepare a new Environmental Impact Statement. This will of course draw objections from the public and may lead to a significant delay in bringing the works to some sort of a conclusion.

Any idea when the EIS will be available to the public?

Mullie · 21-06-2010 2:12pm

Just looking at the planning permission post related to La Touche hotel there and it states that there will be a medical center!
Does this mean we'll have one at the La Touche, one at the harbour and the existing HSE just around the corner?

darter · 21-06-2010 4:08pm

Mullie wrote: »

Just looking at the planning permission post related to La Touche hotel there and it states that there will be a medical center!
Does this mean we'll have one at the La Touche, one at the harbour and the existing HSE just around the corner?

A lot of sickly people in Greystones....

.... possibly from all of the shenanigans about the harbour and now the La Touche hotel.... but we need psychologists to sort us all out....

Fiachra2 · 22-06-2010 7:33am

Blanchflower wrote: »

Any idea when the EIS will be available to the public?

Dont know yet. I would guess that the process will involve the preparation of an EIS followed by its publication and then a relativly short period for the public to make submissions on the EIS to the bord. At best I would imagine the EIS wont be ready for 3-4 months and possibly longer. Once I have any idea of timescale I will post it here.

loyatemu · 22-06-2010 9:58am

Mullie wrote: »

Just looking at the planning permission post related to La Touche hotel there and it states that there will be a medical center!
Does this mean we'll have one at the La Touche, one at the harbour and the existing HSE just around the corner?

I assumed the one at the harbour would replace the existing one opposite the cinema.

danjo · 22-06-2010 10:23am

loyatemu wrote: »

I assumed the one at the harbour would replace the existing one opposite the cinema.

I understand it is a private practice which will relocate from the town to the harbour area.

Alan_P · 22-06-2010 10:58am

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Dont know yet. I would guess that the process will involve the preparation of an EIS followed by its publication and then a relativly short period for the public to make submissions on the EIS to the bord. At best I would imagine the EIS wont be ready for 3-4 months and possibly longer. Once I have any idea of timescale I will post it here.

Can you clarify something ? My understanding was that WCC were planning on adding the extra houses using some clause of the relevant planning act that allows them to do it autonomously, without reference to the Bord.

Does the Bord's determination that a new EIS is required mean do they have a role/veto over the extra housing ?

loyatemu · 22-06-2010 11:10am

danjo wrote: »

I understand it is a private practice which will relocate from the town to the harbour area.

thats the GP's surgery on Church Road - they are moving to the harbour centre, but they're not the only tenants.

MyPerfectCousin · 22-06-2010 11:14am

"Medical centre" is a pretty vague term. I guess planning permission is easier for medical-related premises, given the ability of doctors and dentists to house surgeries in otherwise residential areas. When in doubt when building a multi-use development, throw in a medical centre!

Huntthe · 22-06-2010 12:47pm

How do they reckon the harbour area is going to deal with all the new Traffic !?

Blanchflower · 22-06-2010 9:29pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

Dont know yet. I would guess that the process will involve the preparation of an EIS followed by its publication and then a relativly short period for the public to make submissions on the EIS to the bord. At best I would imagine the EIS wont be ready for 3-4 months and possibly longer. Once I have any idea of timescale I will post it here.

Will there be another oral hearing following submissions from the public?

The Guide · 22-06-2010 9:48pm

Planning permission notice at back of La Touche Hotel, saw it couple of days ago and along with apartments etc, coffee shop.... Medical Centre, thought it was an old one but it looks new. Obviously we are all in need of many medical centres

Fiachra2 · 23-06-2010 7:16am

Alan_P wrote: »

Can you clarify something ? My understanding was that WCC were planning on adding the extra houses using some clause of the relevant planning act that allows them to do it autonomously, without reference to the Bord.

Does the Bord's determination that a new EIS is required mean do they have a role/veto over the extra housing ?

I cannot say for certain and I will try to find out but I think yes is the answer. The council sought permission from the bord to increase the housing without submitting an EIS to the Bord. The Bord declined to permit this. Its all rather confusing because the whole development was built using legislation that was designed to facilitate the fast tracking of "critical infrastructure" i.e. roads. It was never intended to cover the building of houses for commercial gain. However a marina somehow managed to become "critical infrastructure".

I will know more when I get an answer from the Bord and will post it.

Fiachra2 · 23-06-2010 7:18am

Blanchflower wrote: »

Will there be another oral hearing following submissions from the public?

AS above I am not sure but I suspect any member of the public who makes a submission to the Bord could request an oral hearing. This may or may not be granted by the bord.

Annasopra · 23-06-2010 9:48am

danjo wrote: »

I understand it is a private practice which will relocate from the town to the harbour area.

Is it not going to be the HSE centre and a private practice in the same building?

Imhof Tank · 23-06-2010 2:52pm

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Is it not going to be the HSE centre and a private practice in the same building?

Thats was my understanding - a "primary care centre" - basically split between H.S.E. administrative staff dealing with the public, and a g.p private clinic area.

Blanchflower · 23-06-2010 11:23pm

Fiachra2 wrote: »

AS above I am not sure but I suspect any member of the public who makes a submission to the Bord could request an oral hearing. This may or may not be granted by the bord.

The submissions to the impending EIS will indeed be most interesting. I await it with baited breath. I wonder who the new inspector will be for the 3rd Royal installement?

pixbyjohn · 28-06-2010 10:34pm

pixbyjohn · 28-06-2010 10:36pm

recedite · 29-06-2010 9:53am

Just looking at those pics... the area of open water in the harbour/ marina seems to be shrinking more than I thought. Once all the boats have moved in it will get pretty crowded in there? Previously there was plenty of space for locals to go swimming or paddling around in a canoe etc.within the sheltered area of the harbour.

Blanchflower · 29-06-2010 1:14pm

Thanks for posting these very revealing images.

The place looks very higgly-piggly and untidy and a health and safety risk.

d'Oracle · 29-06-2010 1:53pm

recedite wrote: »

Just looking at those pics... the area of open water in the harbour/ marina seems to be shrinking more than I thought. Once all the boats have moved in it will get pretty crowded in there? Previously there was plenty of space for locals to go swimming or paddling around in a canoe etc.within the sheltered area of the harbour.

First up, you can't tell from those pics.
I'm pretty sure that the first one is showing a section of the marina not all of it. The wall you see in the back is a divider.

Second, if this had not been done, in a few years there would be no Harbour.
People seem to forget that the old harbour was silting up fairly quickly and would have probably been useless in maybe 10 years.

Also Blanchflower, its a building site. Not a public park.
As such, it doesn't look too bad to me.

recedite · 29-06-2010 3:26pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

. The wall you see in the back is a divider. .

Yes, but each dividing wall will presumably be the anchor point for pontoons and berths for all these yachts belonging to the good people of South Dublin

d'Oracle wrote: »

.
Second, if this had not been done, in a few years there would be no Harbour.
People seem to forget that the old harbour was silting up fairly quickly and would have probably been useless in maybe 10 years.

They have been saying that since it was first built!

thecommander · 29-06-2010 3:35pm

recedite wrote: »

Just looking at those pics... the area of open water in the harbour/ marina seems to be shrinking more than I thought. Once all the boats have moved in it will get pretty crowded in there? Previously there was plenty of space for locals to go swimming or paddling around in a canoe etc.within the sheltered area of the harbour.

It is a working harbour, not a swimming pool.

Most people launched canoe and then paddled out of harbour.

Blanchflower · 29-06-2010 10:07pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

Also Blanchflower, its a building site. Not a public park.
As such, it doesn't look too bad to me.

Properly run and solvent building sites are always tidy. Unfortunately the harbour building site is neither tidy nor solvent.

pixbyjohn · 29-06-2010 10:37pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

Properly run and solvent building sites are always tidy. Unfortunately the harbour building site is neither tidy nor solvent.

You have no proof about the solvency of the harbour project, is it just bar room babble ?

Alan_P · 30-06-2010 9:31am

pixbyjohn wrote: »

You have no proof about the solvency of the harbour project, is it just bar room babble ?

No it's simple logic and arithmetic. The project promoters were adamant that the amount of residential development was the absolute minimum required to make the project financially viable.

Since they did their projections, the price of residential property has fallen by at least 50% (probably by more in fact, but that's what Lenihan told the Dáil last Autumn).

So half their projected residential development revenue has disappeared, and there was, by their own claims, no slack in their business plan. Ergo the project is no longer viable.

And of course that's entirely ignoring the fact there's around 300,000 empty residential properties in this state, and the question is no longer what the expected price for the residential stuff will be, it's whether and how many of them can be sold at all.

Fiachra2 · 30-06-2010 10:12am

Blanchflower wrote: »

Any idea when the EIS will be available to the public?

An Bord Pleanála have advised me that it is up to WCC when they actually produce the EIS. It will howver be available for the public to comment on and this will be published in local and national newspapers. There may be another oral hearing.

youknowwho · 30-06-2010 1:50pm

Forgive me now if I am raising something that was mentioned earlier but I haven't read the 13 or so previous pages. I thought that the public side of the harbour (open space, slip way, and club houses) was to be completed first independant of the rest. Is it the case now that the builder is in financial difficulty and refusing to complete that part until the plans for the balance of the project are changed to suit him?

I know the town council have mettings from time to time as I see them reported in the paper discussing the issues, but every week there's a different story regarding the harbour or the la touche. Living her over 30 years I think its a shame what is happening.

Would the council or the councilors not call a public meeting and tell us 1. their plans 2. their rights/position with respect to the contract and the developer, and 3. reasons for any of the changes and decisions. As it stands nobody knows anything for certain.

It's probably a lot to ask, but with everything that has developed they are coming across more incompetent than usual.

Blanchflower · 30-06-2010 7:54pm

pixbyjohn wrote: »

You have no proof about the solvency of the harbour project, is it just bar room babble ?

The property bubble has well and truely burst with prices already down by over 50% from their peak levels in 2007 when Sispar prepared their financial plans to justify the project. Property prices are still falling and there is little or no demand for property with little prospect of a recovery in prices for a long long time. There is therefore no profit in this project for Sispar. The banks have no more cheap money to bankroll these types of speculative developments. So the vital cashflow tap is dripping slowly and will soon stop.

So it is damage limitation time for Sispar. As your first loss is your best loss it would seem that they may be about to abandon their unfinished building site and leave us to clean up their mess.

It's about time for Wicklow COunty Council to call in their security bond of €10 million before it's too late.

d'Oracle · 01-07-2010 4:03pm

Blanchflower wrote: »

The property bubble has well and truely burst with prices already down by over 50% from their peak levels in 2007 when Sispar prepared their financial plans to justify the project. Property prices are still falling and there is little or no demand for property with little prospect of a recovery in prices for a long long time. There is therefore no profit in this project for Sispar. The banks have no more cheap money to bankroll these types of speculative developments. So the vital cashflow tap is dripping slowly and will soon stop.

So it is damage limitation time for Sispar. As your first loss is your best loss it would seem that they may be about to abandon their unfinished building site and leave us to clean up their mess.

It's about time for Wicklow COunty Council to call in their security bond of €10 million before it's too late.

That is speculation and handwringing.
Any of the proof that was asked for?

d'Oracle · 01-07-2010 4:04pm

recedite wrote: »

1) Yes, but each dividing wall will presumably be the anchor point for pontoons and berths for all these yachts belonging to the good people of South Dublin

2)They have been saying that since it was first built!

1) Yes, on the far side of the wall.

2)No, just since they realised that it was silting up due to the presence of the old Kish Lighthouse base at the end of the wall.

Blanchflower · 01-07-2010 10:07pm

d'Oracle wrote: »

That is speculation and handwringing.
Any of the proof that was asked for?

The construction sector has shrunk massively. In the first three months of the year, quarterly housing completions plumbed depths recorded only twice before in the 35-year history of the data series. In April, they fell further, to stand at 1,166, almost one-tenth of their monthly peak at the end of 2006.
Despite this, the industry still has a way to go before it hits bottom. With an oversupply of homes and a government whose empty coffers prevent it from spending on much extra infrastructure, there is little going into the industry’s new orders pipeline.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0701/1224273706406.html

News and views on Greystones harbour and marina [SEE MODERATOR WARNING POST 1187]

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