Are FFG & the media putting peace in Ireland in Jeopardy

s7ryf3925pivug · 23-02-2020 10:58pm

macwal wrote: »

I almost agree, there are a handful that have their hearts in the right place, but I believe the vast majority are only in there for the fat fcuking pension that they'll get at the end of it.

Oh for sure there are good individuals. Jan O'Sullivan is widely respected as one, but just lost her seat.

UDAWINNER · 23-02-2020 11:02pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

He wasnt really. He was a British agent, and their ace in the hole to force the closing of the armed struggle and transition to a political process. He had to do some nasty stuff to maintain the illusion. But overall, his dismantling of the IRA, with a couple of other agents on the council, from within, was very positive.

Any evidence of that or are you throwing baseless accusations at a person who will remembered in history as one of the greatest politicians on these Islands.
Don't expect a response apart from your usual dribble.
PS: TROL is an apt username

feargale · 23-02-2020 11:34pm

jd1983 wrote: »

This is in regards to their treatment of Sinn Fein, treating them like a pariah.

The biggest threat to the peace process is dissident republican groups who refused to sign up to the good Friday agreement. Core to their argument is that the good Friday agreement was a con job that will never deliver a united Ireland and that the establishment both sides of the border will never respect Sinn Fein. This argument was strengthened a few years ago when Leo effectively said that he doesn't believe the good Friday agreement should be honoured, stating that there should be a substantial majority before a united Ireland should be allowed. I believe the reaction by FFG and the Irish media to sinn fein's electoral success will help dissident republican groups recruit new disillusioned members.

I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter and I find what they carried out before 1998 as abhorrent. However I feel it's important to support groups that are now looking to achieve their goals via peaceful means.

Election result: FF 38, SF 37, FG 35. When I went to school 38 exceeded 37, and 38 plus 35 exceeded it even more. Less than 50% of ,the electorate voted for the "change" that we keep hearing about, and only about a quarter of them voted for change a lá Sinn Féin. SF have at all times said they don't want a coalition with FG. That is their entitlement. But they are not prepared to acknowledge that FF and FG have an equal right to shun SF. It's called democracy for slow learners.
In the best traditions of the SF school of democracy, sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. SF are free to talk to all other TDs, likeminded or not, with la view to forming a government. In fact they have been encouraged to do so by FF and FG. But being slow learners in the demicracy game, and given their general sense of entitlement, this is not good enough for them.
And now we have a new departure. As they are having difficulty getting their way with enough other representatives they are moving away from discussions with other parties towards rallies in places similar to Hitler's beerhalls.
FYI this is what Leo Varadkar said:

Mr Varadkar said parties that supported a united Ireland did not have a majority, at around 40%, adding that was why he was opposed to holding a poll on Irish unity now.

He added: "That is still well short of the 50% plus one that you would need to win a border poll.

"That is why I don't think that a border poll is a good idea. I don't see that we would gain from that sort of scenario."

SF want a poll, even though the latest opinion poll shows 29% in favour. Any border poll now will fail and will push a United Ireland back by fifty years. But why should SF worry about that? Talking on and on about a UI is a good sales pitch for weak-minded voters. Power trumps a UI in their books.

The threat to peace comes not from FF or FG but from where it always came from. Watch the masks that slipped on election night in Waterford and Dublin. And watch the beerhalls. Trust lawful authority to deal with the dissidents.

P.S. If you are not a SF supporter why do you refer to FFG? No such party exists except in the minds of "republican" propagandists.

Sleeper12 · 23-02-2020 11:45pm

feargale wrote:

Election result: FF 38, SF 37, FG 35. When I went to school 38 exceeded 37, and 38 plus 35 exceeded it even more. Less than 50% of ,the electorate voted for the "change" that we keep hearing about, and only about a quarter of them voted for change a lÃ¡ Sinn FÃ©in. SF have at all times said they don't want a coalition with FG. That is their entitlement. But they are not prepared to acknowledge that FF and FG have an equal right to shun SF. It's called democracy for slow learners. In the best traditions of the SF school of democracy, sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. SF are free to talk to all other TDs, likeminded or not, with la view to forming a government. In fact they have been encouraged to do so by FF and FG. But being slow learners in the demicracy game, and given their general sense of entitlement, this is not good enough for them. And now we have a new departure. As they are having difficulty getting their way with enough other representatives they are moving away from discussions with other parties towards rallies in places similar to Hitler's beerhalls. FYI this is what Leo Varadkar said:

You might need to redo your sums. 38 + 35 =73. This is 7 short of half of the Dail and 8 short of a majority. I think people definitely voted for change though I don't think a lot of younger voters realised that SF were still so closely linked to the IRA and that their leader can't use big girl words to distance themselves from the IRA. They definitely voted for change though.

jd1983 · 24-02-2020 12:03am

feargale wrote: »

Election result: FF 38, SF 37, FG 35. When I went to school 38 exceeded 37, and 38 plus 35 exceeded it even more. Less than 50% of ,the electorate voted for the "change" that we keep hearing about, and only about a quarter of them voted for change a lá Sinn Féin. SF have at all times said they don't want a coalition with FG. That is their entitlement. But they are not prepared to acknowledge that FF and FG have an equal right to shun SF. It's called democracy for slow learners.
In the best traditions of the SF school of democracy, sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. SF are free to talk to all other TDs, likeminded or not, with la view to forming a government. In fact they have been encouraged to do so by FF and FG. But being slow learners in the demicracy game, and given their general sense of entitlement, this is not good enough for them.
And now we have a new departure. As they are having difficulty getting their way with enough other representatives they are moving away from discussions with other parties towards rallies in places similar to Hitler's beerhalls.
FYI this is what Leo Varadkar said:

Mr Varadkar said parties that supported a united Ireland did not have a majority, at around 40%, adding that was why he was opposed to holding a poll on Irish unity now.

He added: "That is still well short of the 50% plus one that you would need to win a border poll.

"That is why I don't think that a border poll is a good idea. I don't see that we would gain from that sort of scenario."

SF want a poll, even though the latest opinion poll shows 29% in favour. Any border poll now will fail and will push a United Ireland back by fifty years. But why should SF worry about that? Talking on and on about a UI is a good sales pitch for weak-minded voters. Power trumps a UI in their books.

The threat to peace comes not from FF or FG but from where it always came from. Watch the masks that slipped on election night in Waterford and Dublin. And watch the beerhalls. Trust lawful authority to deal with the dissidents.

P.S. If you are not a SF supporter why do you refer to FFG? No such party exists except in the minds of "republican" propagandists.

"I wouldn't like us to get to the point whereby we are changing the constitutional position in Northern Ireland on a 50pc plus one basis," Mr Varadkar said referring to the prospect of a Border poll.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkar-wants-a-united-ireland-through-consensus-not-border-poll-36238375.html

I agree that it's too early for a border poll but saying it will push back the agenda by 50 years is nonsense. However suggesting that peace treaty's shouldn't be honoured is a dangerous game that Leo is playing.

Using ffg is a commonly used abbreviation, suitable for a title thread which I wanted to keep succinct. Stating that it's any kind of indication that I'm a Sinn Fein supporter weakens any argument you're trying to make.

Foxtrol · 24-02-2020 12:09am

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You might need to redo your sums. 38 + 35 =73. This is 7 short of half of the Dail and 8 short of a majority. I think people definitely voted for change though I don't think a lot of younger voters realised that SF were still so closely linked to the IRA and that their leader can't use big girl words to distance themselves from the IRA. They definitely voted for change though.

If SF can get to 73 then FF or even FG would find some arrangement to allow them to take the reins, as the difference is so small.

It doesn't look like SF will get anywhere close to that number, as several on the left dont want to deal with them or be anywhere near government either

dxhound2005 · 24-02-2020 12:13am

Why should politicians tip toe around if they are anti SF. Say it like it is. And the media should be fearless in resisting the SF tendency to try to censor them.

The dissidents don't need stories in the papers to motivate them to murder. That is the stock in trade of terrorists.

feargale · 24-02-2020 2:47am

jd1983 wrote: »

"I wouldn't like us to get to the point whereby we are changing the constitutional position in Northern Ireland on a 50pc plus one basis," Mr Varadkar said referring to the prospect of a Border poll.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/varadkar-wants-a-united-ireland-through-consensus-not-border-poll-36238375.html

There are lots of things Leo Varadkar wouldn't like, including not being Taoiseach. But he will have no bloody choice in that because his party respects the constitution and will bow to the will of the Dàil. Unlike some others his party doesn't do beerhall politics. He did not say that he would flout the result of a border poll taken in accordance with the GFA. Let me tell you that I would be uncomfortable with a slim pro-UI poll, as I'm sure alot would, but that is not to say that the result would be disrespected.

jd1983 wrote: »

"I agree that it's too early for a border poll but saying it will push back the agenda by 50 years is nonsense. However suggesting that peace treaty's shouldn't be honoured is a dangerous game that Leo is playing.

Re 50 years, you are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I hope you don't think that a border poll will be all rosy. In the event of a negative poll we could settle it with a bet except that I won't be around to collect.

jd1983 wrote: »

" Using ffg is a commonly used abbreviation, suitable for a title thread which I wanted to keep succinct. Stating that it's any kind of indication that I'm a Sinn Fein supporter weakens any argument you're trying to make.

Whatever. I didn't say you were a SF supporter and if you are saying you didn't vote for them who am I to say otherwise? As an aside you will probably be aware that there are a number of them in social media posing as neutrals.

splinter65 · 24-02-2020 8:36am

pinkyeye wrote: »

They're absolutely putting the peace process in jeopardy out of fear. They're absolutely ****ting themselves now that they haven't got a clear run at power.

Interesting...can you explain who HAS got a clear run at power?

pinkyeye · 24-02-2020 10:15pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Interesting...can you explain who HAS got a clear run at power?

No-one has at the moment, that's the whole point.

James Brown · 24-02-2020 10:23pm

I don't think they are but they have zero respect for all the hard work all sides put into it or the blood shed either.
That's why FG need to go. Its beyond their failed policies at this point. Nasty bitter arrogant people.

jd1983 · 24-02-2020 10:49pm

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the rallies are "designed to be the next phase in Sinn Féin's campaign of intimidation and bullying".

Public meetings are now being described as intimidation and bullying!

Suckit · 24-02-2020 11:10pm

jd1983 wrote: »

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the rallies are "designed to be the next phase in Sinn Féin's campaign of intimidation and bullying".

Public meetings are now being described as intimidation and bullying!

Can't wait to hear what he has to say about the Greens.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0224/1117361-green-party-meetings/

smurgen · 24-02-2020 11:14pm

jd1983 wrote: »

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said the rallies are "designed to be the next phase in Sinn Féin's campaign of intimidation and bullying".

Public meetings are now being described as intimidation and bullying!

I was at the meeting early. There seemed to be a very wide ranging demographic. There was an open discussion and they answered questions thoroughly and honestly. Seemed like a great idea and looked a success.

hatrickpatrick · 24-02-2020 11:29pm

n97 mini wrote: »

You lost me at FFG. FF and FG are not the same party.

They're not, but as they both adopted the economically right wing, socially left wing blend that was known as the "third way" in the US, "New Labour" in the UK, is known by its opponents as "neoliberalism" etc when it emerged at the end of the 1980s and developed through the early 1990s, those who oppose that ideology very legitimately and reasonable regard them as two cheeks of the same arse.

hatrickpatrick · 24-02-2020 11:35pm

Peatys wrote: »

Ever since i have my own money, A please.

If stagflation isn't addressed urgently, it will eventually impact your quality of life just the same as it's impacting people less well off now. It's only a matter of time before price inflation outstrips everyone's ability to stay ahead of it, so if you truly believe you can do so indefinitely then good luck to you - but history would suggest that this tends not to be the case.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-02-2020 11:51pm

No brexit is.

smurgen · 24-02-2020 11:56pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If stagflation isn't addressed urgently, it will eventually impact your quality of life just the same as it's impacting people less well off now. It's only a matter of time before price inflation outstrips everyone's ability to stay ahead of it, so if you truly believe you can do so indefinitely then good luck to you - but history would suggest that this tends not to be the case.

The gas thing is when we get an inevitable recession do you honestly think that housing prices will fall in line with the fall in wages ? They will in their hole.believe me if we're stuggling for living costs during a boom period they we're doomed when a recession comes.

Darc19 · 24-02-2020 11:59pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

They're not, but as they both adopted the economically right wing, socially left wing blend that was known as the "third way" in the US, "New Labour" in the UK, is known by its opponents as "neoliberalism" etc when it emerged at the end of the 1980s and developed through the early 1990s, those who oppose that ideology very legitimately and reasonable regard them as two cheeks of the same arse.

A bit like SF/IRA?

hatrickpatrick · 25-02-2020 12:37am

Darc19 wrote: »

A bit like SF/IRA?

If you're implying that SF are also secretly a neoliberal party, we won't know that until we see them in government but it's worth a shot. We know FFG are.

If you're referring to the IRA, the difference is that the IRA's campaign is over. The cost of living crisis is happening right now. The elections of people like Dessie Ellis and Aengus O'Snodaigh are evidence that voters are willing to prioritise the problems of today over the problems of the past.

I don't think anyone denies that SF has always been the political wing of the IRA, people are denying the relevance of this today considering that the IRA has abandoned its campaign and fully subsumed into the political wing. Nobody has provided any evidence that Sinn Fein's organisational structure is any less democratic than any other party's. If they're too dangerous or undemocratic to be allowed into power here, then our establishment is hypocritical to its core to demand that they capitulate to the DUP in the North, hence the question as to whether the barrage of unproven and evidenceless allegations that SF is controlled by a secret cabal of terrorists is a two fingered salute to the Good Friday Agreement. Either SF is fit to take part in a legitimate, democratic government or they aren't. Attacking or delegitimising the party and its voters in this jurisdiction automatically by extension delegitimises their participation in the Northern Ireland power sharing institutions, and it's absolutely ridiculous for anyone to suggest otherwise.

dxhound2005 · 25-02-2020 12:40am

The premise of this thread is Be Nice to Sinn Fein, Stop being Nasty to Sinn Fein, or someone might get hurt.

RandomViewer · 25-02-2020 12:41am

n97 mini wrote: »

You lost me at FFG. FF and FG are not the same party.

2 cheeks of the same arse

noodler · 25-02-2020 12:43am

It's a bit scary a party that only got 25% of the vote is holding rallies with an ambiguous intent to "convince" that they should be in power.

It's really not how this works.

RandomViewer · 25-02-2020 12:48am

jd1983 wrote: »

This is in regards to their treatment of Sinn Fein, treating them like a pariah.

The biggest threat to the peace process is dissident republican groups who refused to sign up to the good Friday agreement. Core to their argument is that the good Friday agreement was a con job that will never deliver a united Ireland and that the establishment both sides of the border will never respect Sinn Fein. This argument was strengthened a few years ago when Leo effectively said that he doesn't believe the good Friday agreement should be honoured, stating that there should be a substantial majority before a united Ireland should be allowed. I believe the reaction by FFG and the Irish media to sinn fein's electoral success will help dissident republican groups recruit new disillusioned members.

I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter and I find what they carried out before 1998 as abhorrent. However I feel it's important to support groups that are now looking to achieve their goals via peaceful means.

No risk to the peace process just making twits of themselves rolling out every hack that owes them a favour to conflate SF with everything fro the fall of the Roman empire to why there are less Rollos in a pack.

RandomViewer · 25-02-2020 12:51am

noodler wrote: »

It's a bit scary a party that only got 25% of the vote is holding rallies with an ambiguous intent to "convince" that they should be in power.

It's really not how this works.

They atre town meetings not much different to the tyre burning cavalcade for the FFG TDs who were elected on the 15th count

smurgen · 25-02-2020 1:22am

noodler wrote: »

It's a bit scary a party that only got 25% of the vote is holding rallies with an ambiguous intent to "convince" that they should be in power.

It's really not how this works.

If you find open discussions around policy and government formations terrifying then you're probably a dictator!

Yurt2 · 25-02-2020 4:14am

People excercising their fundamental rights to freedom of assembly and association is a threat to democracy now...

#Leothink #gravedangertodemocracy #needanewPRconsultancy #meltdown

jimmycrackcorm · 25-02-2020 4:23am

Yurt! wrote: »

People excercising their fundamental rights to freedom of assembly and association is a threat to democracy now...

#Leothink #gravedangertodemocracy #needanewPRconsultancy #meltdown

Betray Sinn Fein and you'll get assassinated
#makeTagUp #DenisDonaldson

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 25-02-2020 6:24am

jd1983 wrote: »

I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter...

I'm amazed by how many threads people are starting in support of a party they don't support.

Is there some rule that you have to include the line "I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, but..."?

Yurt2 · 25-02-2020 7:00am

Hank Hissing Dimple wrote: »

I'm amazed by how many threads people are starting in support of a party they don't support.

Is there some rule that you have to include the line "I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, but..."?

Probably because a favoured tactic of the boards Young (and not so young) FG continuity army is to tar anyone who criticises their party as having spent the 80s in a ditch outside Crossmaglen watching troop movements.

Mostly they've had a bellyful of the last government.

hatrickpatrick · 25-02-2020 2:31pm

Hank Hissing Dimple wrote: »

I'm amazed by how many threads people are starting in support of a party they don't support.

Is there some rule that you have to include the line "I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, but..."?

I never supported SF until this election and I wouldn't call myself a card carrying Shinner yet, but I bumped our local candidate up to #2 where they would formerly have been close to the very bottom (above FFG but below everyone else), heading along to the rally tonight in Dublin to hear what they have to say and could easily see myself supporting them in the next election depending on how the fallout from this one transpires.

I imagine many of the "I don't support SF but..." posters are the same, newfound supporters or tentative supporters who are on the fence, but who have swung their legs over to the SF side of the fence and only need a small amount of convincing to hop off on that side. That's certainly me anyway.

super_furry · 25-02-2020 2:33pm

n97 mini wrote: »

You lost me at FFG. FF and FG are not the same party.

Sinnerbots taking a leaf out of the DUP playbook here with their SFIRA, you hate to see it.

hatrickpatrick · 25-02-2020 2:35pm

Yurt! wrote: »

People excercising their fundamental rights to freedom of assembly and association is a threat to democracy now...

#Leothink #gravedangertodemocracy #needanewPRconsultancy #meltdown

Damn Shinners and their...

*shuffles cards*

...engaging with the electorate :rolleyes:

RandomViewer · 25-02-2020 2:41pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Betray Sinn Fein and you'll get assassinated
#makeTagUp #DenisDonaldson

Who had most to lose by Donaldson talking? Sunday World made the big deal about him living outside Glenties, wasn't causing any grief for republicans, so who needed him dead?

Suckit · 25-02-2020 3:09pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I never supported SF until this election and I wouldn't call myself a card carrying Shinner yet, but I bumped our local candidate up to #2 where they would formerly have been close to the very bottom (above FFG but below everyone else), heading along to the rally tonight in Dublin to hear what they have to say and could easily see myself supporting them in the next election depending on how the fallout from this one transpires.

I imagine many of the "I don't support SF but..." posters are the same, newfound supporters or tentative supporters who are on the fence, but who have swung their legs over to the SF side of the fence and only need a small amount of convincing to hop off on that side. That's certainly me anyway.

The arrogance of the FG lot coupled with the 'you-stupid-idiots-they-are-the-IRA!' attitude reminds me of when it was pointed out how much Margaret Thatcher boosted IRA recruitment.

feargale · 25-02-2020 3:30pm

The people have spoken. It is now the turn of Dàil Éireann to decide. Every party goes to the market and puts their best foot forward. Nobody has any entitlement to a place in government in advance. It is extremely rich of SF to whinge about being shunned by other parties when they have made clear that they will have nothing to do with FG in any circumstances. SF are far too slow in learning about democracy. They should divest themselves of their sense of entitlement.
For those who don't seem to know, what happens now is that parties do more talking and try plan B. Fresh offers will be made, just as happens at the market. No other party will be influenced in the slightest by proceedings in the beerhalls.

James Brown · 25-02-2020 3:34pm

Hank Hissing Dimple wrote: »

I'm amazed by how many threads people are starting in support of a party they don't support.

Is there some rule that you have to include the line "I'm not a Sinn Fein supporter, but..."?

TBF, you can't say anything negative about FF/FG without their supporters club doing a whatabout the troubles or IRA in general, and if you persist, you are considered a shinner, so people obviously feel the need to mention it.
I don't care if people think I'm a shinner, I'll still criticise bullsh*t from /FG and I'll only speak on SF in that regard. As I've said you could merrily switch SF with PBP and the conversations would end up with the FG lobby calling everyone PBP heads.

maccored · 25-02-2020 3:45pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Betray Sinn Fein and you'll get assassinated
#makeTagUp #DenisDonaldson

cant wait til you show us all how you can back that up with actual facts

feargale · 25-02-2020 5:07pm

pinkyeye wrote: »

They're absolutely putting the peace process in jeopardy out of fear. They're absolutely ****ting themselves now that they haven't got a clear run at power.

Sorry mate. Nobody's falling for that blackmail. "Do it our way or blood will flow." You underestimate the determination of Irish people to preserve democracy,

feargale · 25-02-2020 5:12pm

Suckit wrote: »

Can't wait to hear what he has to say about the Greens.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2020/0224/1117361-green-party-meetings/

I would just love to be a fly on the wall when the Green/SF discussion gets around to diesel.

James Brown · 25-02-2020 5:32pm

feargale wrote: »

Sorry mate. Nobody's falling for that blackmail. "Do it our way or blood will flow." You underestimate the determination of Irish people to preserve democracy,

Or how much they were willing to fight to gain representation within a 'democracy'.

pinkyeye · 27-02-2020 12:30am

feargale wrote: »

Sorry mate. Nobody's falling for that blackmail. "Do it our way or blood will flow." You underestimate the determination of Irish people to preserve democracy,

Don't know where you got blood flow from my post?? Genuinely mystified.

Are FFG & the media putting peace in Ireland in Jeopardy

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