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View Poll Results: Do cocaine users in Ireland have blood on their hands?
Yes 604 71.65%
No 239 28.35%
Voters: 843. You may not vote on this poll

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22-01-2020, 15:51   #436
Drumpot
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@ Steyr 556

Just want to say, just because I have suffered from addiction issues does not mean I think I know it all or even more then you. Nor does it mean that your opinions are less valid. I did not write that to imply that "you dont know what you are talking about, I have seen things man!!". It was because I noticed some snotty/ratty parts of my posts and that is not my intention.

I am only writing this in case I can be short with anybody on this thread, I really am trying to not be that guy . .

And up until a year or two I wouldnt of known alot of the information I discuss. It was only reading Johan Hari's books and listening to him discuss it that I changed my views. He doesnt just challange our views on addiction but also how we tackle mental health problems:

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22-01-2020, 21:50   #437
Steyr 556
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@ Steyr 556

Just want to say, just because I have suffered from addiction issues does not mean I think I know it all or even more then you. Nor does it mean that your opinions are less valid. I did not write that to imply that "you dont know what you are talking about, I have seen things man!!". It was because I noticed some snotty/ratty parts of my posts and that is not my intention.

I am only writing this in case I can be short with anybody on this thread, I really am trying to not be that guy . .

And up until a year or two I wouldnt of known alot of the information I discuss. It was only reading Johan Hari's books and listening to him discuss it that I changed my views. He doesnt just challange our views on addiction but also how we tackle mental health problems:

Ah you're grand man, to be honest you raise a lot of good points and I'd do well to consider them rather than becoming further entrenched in my own ideas. Just going to end up back and forth getting nowhere otherwise. I'll have a peep at the ted talk here now.
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22-01-2020, 22:04   #438
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I dont think Ireland or most countries actually give a flying f**k about people who suffer addictions or mental health issues that lead to addictions. They give it lip service (we want people off drugs) and do nothing to really try and help people out of their suffering. My family have a father, a husband and somebody who can support them because of the love and support I got from MY doctor, my therapist , my support group and friends who did not judge me. I’m not so sure I am around to tell this story if there was prohibition of alcohol like there is currently with cocaine or heroin.
Have you read about the studies by psychologist Bruce K. Alexander on rats and morphine?
I know these tests on rodents don't always translate to what humans will do but this is interesting.

Different groups of rats, some left alone in a cage others in a larger rat parks with other rats setup to be a rat paradise and a very nice place for them to interact socially.

Both sets had access to regular water and water mixed with morphine.
The ones alone in the cage were 19 times more likely to drink the morphine mix.

The rats in the park preferred the regular water as the morphine mix limited their ability to interact with order rats and enjoy the park.
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23-01-2020, 09:54   #439
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That guy Johann Hari is a bit weird.

I haven't fully made up my mind on him but my first impression is that he's a charalatan.

Johann's thesis appears to be that drugs are not addictive, and that people only become addicted due to despair. There is some truth to this but it is a trite observation. In other words, his observation is obvious and not of very much importance.

Of course it's true to say that poor people with nothing to do and who percieve that there is no place for them in society will take drugs. Drugs are good fun, at least at first, and if there's nothing else to do of course people will take them. If there's never anything good to do then people will take drugs constantly.

Prince Harry is unlikely to become addicted, as he has loads of support and alternatives to taking drugs. He may take them occassionally but he's not likely to become addicted.

Johann Hari is selling books by saying something very obvious.
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23-01-2020, 10:06   #440
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I haven't fully made up my mind on him but my first impression is that he's a charalatan.
Never heard of him before, looked up wikipedia and yep, he's a con man.

He's a journalist with little more than anecdotal experience on the topic of drugs, and a history of writing bull**** and running away when called out on it.

Quote:
Johann's thesis appears to be that drugs are not addictive, and that people only become addicted due to despair. There is some truth to this but it is a trite observation. In other words, his observation is obvious and not of very much importance.
The observation might be obvious, but it's also wrong. While there is often a strong correlation between people with mental illness or depression and drug-taking, it's not a causative factor. That is, you don't have to be "in despair" to take or become addicted to anything.

The trope of the addict using drugs to "hide from his problems" is popular, but it's not universal. Plenty of addicts will recall having no real problems in their lives until they became addicted. From there is can become a downward spiral (though it doesn't always), and while the drugs become a crutch, the original addiction is just something that happened.

If that is his message, it's kind of dangerous. Because not only does it tell people that they're grand to take drugs if they're in a good place mentally, it also tells addicts that their problem is not the addiction and if they work on other things, the addiction will go away. For many (most?) addicts, addiction is their only real problem, everything else stems from it.
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23-01-2020, 10:10   #441
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Prince Harry is unlikely to become addicted, as he has loads of support and alternatives to taking drugs. He may take them occassionally but he's not likely to become addicted.
.
That's just not true.

There's any number of very wealthy, well connected drug addicts. Some people are just more prone to addiction than others, and certainly more prone to specific addictions than others. Some people can happily have the odd pint, while others feel compelled to down a bottle of vodka for breakfast, some the occasional flutter while others will stick the mortgage on that dead cert running in the 2.45 from leopardstown.

I have no idea what the reason for that is, but it's certainly not boredom, poverty or deprivation - if it was we wouldn't have the constant stream of gazillionaire celebrity addicts of all description which we do.
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23-01-2020, 10:19   #442
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I have no idea what the reason for that is, but it's certainly not boredom, poverty or deprivation - if it was we wouldn't have the constant stream of gazillionaire celebrity addicts of all description which we do.
All of the studies on the nature of addiction suggest that it's genetic.

Even studies on primates - who in theory should lack the higher cognitive functions that create "despair" - indicate that some individuals are simply more prone to addiction than others.

And since we know that there's an inheritable aspect to it, then it stands to reason that people with less money are more predisposed to addiction. That is, if you are poor and genetically predisposed to addiction, then the odds of you lifting yourself out of poverty are massively shortened. And therefore your offspring are bound to the same fate. Over generations, you find higher levels of addiction among poorer communities because it's in their genes.
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23-01-2020, 11:15   #443
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It is certainly true to say that Prince Harry, and others in his position, are less likely to become addicted than other people, particularly poorer people.

I am not saying that Harry is immune to becoming addicted. If people think that's what I'm saying then they are wrong.


Drugs relieve pain.
That includes physical pain, but also psychological pain in your mind. Boredom, poverty or deprivation causes psychological pain, therefore boredom or poverty contributes to drug use.

This is obvious stuff and is incontrovertible.

Drug use is good fun and it's more addictive among the poor as they have little else to do.

There is also the problem that society tells lots of lies about drugs. Those lies prevent Harry from coming out and saying drug use is fun and everyone should try drugs, which is probably what he thinks.
Our society prevents people from saying what they truly think.




Seamus's point about evolution and genes for addiction becoming concentrated among poorer people is valid and has merit.
If there was a genetic component to drug addiction, and, this is crucial, if that drug use prevented poor people from succeeding and becoming rich, then, yes, it is true to conclude that genes for addiction would become more prevalent among the poor.

That is a good point, but how much of drug addiction among the poor does it explain?
I don't think it explains very much.
Despair and boredom explains much more, in my view.
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23-01-2020, 13:26   #444
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Drugs relieve pain.
That includes physical pain, but also psychological pain in your mind. Boredom, poverty or deprivation causes psychological pain, therefore boredom or poverty contributes to drug use.

This is obvious stuff and is incontrovertible.
It is neither obvious nor incontrovertible.

Firstly i wouldn't be in any way convinced that poorer people take drugs more often than richer people. The reason it appears to be that way probably has a lot to do with the facts that -

A: There's a lot more of them, and
B: It's more likely to cause them legal or working problems which bring them to your attention

Prince Harry is unlikely to find himself having to stick one of Lizzies crowns on ebay to buy coke, he has the money to hand. He also doesn't need to clock in to some shít hole warehouse at 7:00am or face consequences - he can just order up another ounce or 2 and stay in the champagne filled jacuzzi with Megan until it arrives.

Secondly the whole people only take drugs to numb the pain thing is very much exaggerated in my opinion, yes some people obviously do, but the vast majority i would suggest do so purely for the craic.

Personally speaking i know dozens of people who have taken all manner of drugs and i can't think of a single one who was trying to numb some horror existence - these were just party people, who liked to get out their heads for fun. The vast majority also managed to do so without any addiction issues.
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23-01-2020, 13:40   #445
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Secondly the whole people only take drugs to numb the pain thing is very much exaggerated in my opinion, yes some people obviously do, but the vast majority i would suggest do so purely for the craic.
Indeed. Again, as a result of massive anti-drug propaganda campaigns - especially in the English-speaking world - people were led to believe that hard drugs were only consumed by "broken" people, losers who were already on a downward spiral and took hard drugs to escape from their own personal anguish.

But people drank and smoked because they enjoy it and want to have some craic. Legal drugs were placed in a separate bucket of "fine in moderation", for no justifiable reason except that they were legal.

I accept the assertion that poorer people may in fact not abuse substances more often than wealthy people. It just becomes a bigger problem much faster because they can't afford to prop themselves up.
I read a story recently on Robert Downey Jr.'s decision to quit substance abuse after an ultimatum. Now look at him. But if he hadn't been a multi-millionaire at the time that he developed his addiction, there's a good chance he wouldn't have beaten it, and there's no way in hell he would have been able to rebuild a successful career. Being a wealthy addict is very different experience to being a poor one.

So indeed, it may be a mistake for me to suggest that addiction runs more frequently through poorer people.
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23-01-2020, 13:52   #446
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I accept the assertion that poorer people may in fact not abuse substances more often than wealthy people. It just becomes a bigger problem much faster because they can't afford to prop themselves up.
I read a story recently on Robert Downey Jr.'s decision to quit substance abuse after an ultimatum. Now look at him. But if he hadn't been a multi-millionaire at the time that he developed his addiction, there's a good chance he wouldn't have beaten it, and there's no way in hell he would have been able to rebuild a successful career. Being a wealthy addict is very different experience to being a poor one.
.
That's it exactly.

Robert Downey Jr, or Robbie Williams get 6 trips to Betty Ford or the Priory, all the time and help they need to get their shít together (don't let anything happen that golden goose!) Then back to the mansion to sign that nice multi million film / record / book deal.

Robbie Murphy gets 6 months in the joy, the sack if he had a job to begin with and then left to his own devices to fend for himself, on the streets in a lot of cases.

No prizes for guessing who's more likely to clean up their act!
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23-01-2020, 22:27   #447
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Poorer people are more likely to be obese than richer people. That is for similar reasons but not exactly the same reasons as poorer people being more likely to become addicted.


If cocaine was legalised and sold at it's natural price of about 5 euro per gram at a guess it'd be hugely popular and way too many people would develop health problems. Legalisation of some other alternative drug seems to be the only way.

Using drugs is not, in and of itself, immoral or shameful.
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24-01-2020, 00:14   #448
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Poorer people are more likely to be obese than richer people. That is for similar reasons but not exactly the same reasons as poorer people being more likely to become addicted.


If cocaine was legalised and sold at it's natural price of about 5 euro per gram at a guess it'd be hugely popular and way too many people would develop health problems. Legalisation of some other alternative drug seems to be the only way.

Using drugs is not, in and of itself, immoral or shameful.
To be honest I wouldn't agree with it being so cheap. Most people currently using it are happy to pay ~€70-100/g to black market dealers so as long as the legal sources undercut that it would be ideal. Taxes applied accordingly. It would be a huge earner. I'm fully in support of legalisation of everything but still feel like they shouldn't all be readily available for anyone to walk in and purchase in dispensaries. Cannabis and other soft drugs like that, sure. But the more addictive stuff like coke, since we know how stupid many people are, it would be great to have people needing to register to access those dispensaries and actually be walked through some kind of awareness steps so they learn about what they're actually taking, how much to take, signs of issues to look out for etc. and then be made sign whatever's necessary for them to acknowledge they are fully aware of the risks. These facilities should only be available to actual citizens/residents though. Tourists shouldn't be able to arrive on and go mental because it'd be awful

I think more people than we imagine would actually take harm reduction seriously if it was readily available and without any judgement or bull****. Just informed people educating people on what they're actually consuming. For example, in certain events around Europe there are proper drug testing facilities available and so many people actually avail of them and learn more through them than they would on their own
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24-01-2020, 01:42   #449
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I think this video sums up a lot of incorrect attitudes towards drug users and how to deal with them, hopefully it might change the mentality of some people here:

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25-01-2020, 16:15   #450
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"Just one hit
And I feel great
And I support
The welfare state."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b7DgOeMnW4
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