Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

homer911 · 20-04-2019 11:42am #1

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

sydthebeat · 20-04-2019 11:42am

Have been hibernating for the last two weeks??

robinph · 20-04-2019 11:44am

You not being allowed to discriminate against others is not discrimination against you.

is_that_so · 20-04-2019 11:45am

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

I think it's the word respectful that was lacking in the original tweet.

troyzer · 20-04-2019 11:45am

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing an opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

Some views simply shouldn't be tolerated.

If Folau had come out and said black people will burn in hell or Jewish people, you wouldn't accept him being raised to believe it as an excuse. There's no difference.

The suicide rate among gay teenagers is shocking as well as the almost non existence of rugby players willing to come out. Both of these things can be attributed to a historic intolerance of who they are. We are trying to stamp that out.

Backwards views are backwards. I don't care if they're sincerely held. If you believe something that is morally repugnant, you are morally repugnant.

sydthebeat · 20-04-2019 11:48am

Been done to death here

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057972315/1

And I don't expect there to be any greater understanding of the issue in a Christianity forum than there is in an atheist forum.

homer911 · 20-04-2019 12:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

And I don't expect there to be any greater understanding of the idea in a Christianity forum than there is in an atheist forum.

I would say quite the opposite if Christians actually respond but these kinds of stories tend to brink out the lurkers from the Atheist forum, perhaps that's why there has been no discussion on this forum so far

homer911 · 20-04-2019 12:07pm

robinph wrote: »

You not being allowed to discriminate against others is not discrimination against you.

I'd don't believe discrimination was ever mentioned. Hate was never mentioned, quite the opposite. This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

The comments were also about sin, homosexuality was mentioned in a list of other sins

homer911 · 20-04-2019 12:11pm

is_that_so wrote: »

I think it's the word respectful that was lacking in the original tweet.

Can't disagree with you there, I was more focused on Billy Vunipola's response

Zaph · 20-04-2019 12:13pm

homer911 wrote: »

This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

Just because it existed for thousands of years doesn't mean that the intolerance shown to the gay community was right, or even acceptable. That anyone still holding those views is seen as being wrong is merely redressing the balance and putting to right a long-standing injustice.

robinph · 20-04-2019 1:19pm

homer911 wrote: »

I'd don't believe discrimination was ever mentioned. Hate was never mentioned, quite the opposite. This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

The comments were also about sin, homosexuality was mentioned in a list of other sins

So you are upset that you can no longer be intolerant of others then?

homer911 · 21-04-2019 3:34pm

robinph wrote: »

So you are upset that you can no longer be intolerant of others then?

I don't think you read the article

robinph · 21-04-2019 4:24pm

homer911 wrote: »

I don't think you read the article

It just seems to be about wanting to be intolerant of others because you were allowed to be intolerant of others before. What did I miss?

smacl · 21-04-2019 7:15pm

homer911 wrote: »

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe.

I don't think it is a respectful opinion though. While I'm not gay, I'm an atheist and according to Folau, I'm going to hell because of this. Unless I repent of course. There is nothing respectful or respectable about this "burn or turn" style of Christianity in this day and age, and I fully support him being sanctioned for it, particularly as he's already been warned about this in the past.

recedite · 21-04-2019 9:35pm

I think its his honestly held opinion. While I'm not gay, I'm an atheist and according to Folau, I'm going to hell because of this. Unless I repent of course. That's a fair warning, nothing wrong with that.
I'll ignore it of course, but I'll also defend his right to free speech.

matrim · 22-04-2019 9:55am

I think it's a disgrace that someone can be fired for having a genuine and honest belief. We should definitely be looking to make sure that it can't happen here. And as part of that I hope you are all emailing your TDs to remove the law which allows religious schools to fire and discriminate against teachers who are of a different / no faith. We all celebrated when religious schools were no longer allowed to discriminate against gay teachers and teachers who were cohabiting or had children outside marriage. So lets take it a step further and remove the other discrimination they are allowed to do with state money.

As for Folau, he wasn't fired for being christian. He was fired for (twice) publicly saying that a number of his colleagues / teammates / opponents were evil and deserve to go to hell. This despite participating in inclusionary marketing campaigns and signing a contract which states he won't publicly say things like that on social media.

In the teacher case, this would be like an atheist teacher being hired by a catholic school who have a contract provision that they can't promote atheism / talk against the church in public. They work well for a number of years. One day they comes in and in the parking lot in front of parents and students shouts "There is no God and anyone who supports the catholic church is defending pedos". The principal takes him in and warns him not to do it again. A year later he does the same thing and this time gets fired. He wouldn't be fired for being an atheist, he would be fired for being an asshole who can't keep his opinion to himself despite signing a contract that states he wouldn't do that.

is_that_so · 22-04-2019 10:00am

matrim wrote: »

I think it's a disgrace that someone can be fired for having a genuine and honest belief. We should definitely be looking to make sure that it can't happen here. And as part of that I hope you are all emailing your TDs to remove the law which allows religious schools to fire and discriminate against teachers who are of a different / no faith. We all celebrated when religious schools were no longer allowed to discriminate against gay teachers and teachers who were cohabiting or had children outside marriage. So lets take it a step further and remove the other discrimination they are allowed to do with state money.

As for Folau, he wasn't fired for being christian. He was fired for (twice) publicly saying that a number of his colleagues / teammates / opponents were evil and deserve to go to hell. This despite participating in inclusionary marketing campaigns and signing a contract which states he won't publicly say things like that on social media.

In the teacher case, this would be like an atheist teacher being hired by a catholic school who have a contract provision that they can't promote atheism / talk against the church in public. They work well for a number of years. One day they comes in and in the parking lot in front of parents and students shouts "There is no God and anyone who supports the catholic church is defending pedos". The principal takes him in and warns him not to do it again. A year later he does the same thing and this time gets fired. He wouldn't be fired for being an atheist, he would be fired for being an asshole who can't keep his opinion to himself despite signing a contract that states he wouldn't do that.

It wasn't the honest belief he was fired for. He targeted a specific group of people publicly by exploiting his position and fame. His employer saw that as cause.

JimiTime · 03-05-2019 12:44pm

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions. As these anti-christian generations become our future, the harder it will be to be free. The further from the light, the darker it becomes.
Professing Christians have to take a lot of responsibility for this. Church scandals, A la Carte-ism. Religiosity and ritual without love. Dead faith. Hypocrisy. Its on our heads too.
The west, while nowhere near perfect by any means, has been a beacon of freedom, innovation, justice etc. Its no coincidence that Christian views of morality, mercy, justice etc is a foundation to this. And all its evils are in spite of Christs teachings.
Now the haters of Christians and christianity generally don't like to admit such things, and as the west grows darker, they'll blame everything but the fact that they have chopped the rudder off the ship.
I said it back in 2000 that LGBT activism was a Trojan horse, but unfortunately people got too caught up in the emotional blackmail to have any wisdom or foresight.
Israel Folau, for all I know is a terrible guy, or maybe he is a beautiful man. What I do know, is that there was absolutely nothing controversial in his now infamous tweet. But dissenters must be punished and driven from the public square. Folau is simply the latest casualty, and its going to get worse. Christians need to have the courage not to deny Jesus. We in the west have been spoiled, in that our views have always had the assumption that we are in common agreement about God, justice, sin etc. Those sands have shifted and continue to shift. The apostle Peter feared for his life when he denied Jesus 3 times. Thankfully, it has not yet reached the death penalty for us as is in some Islamic or communist regimes, but Christians will see their livelihoods threatened etc if they stand up for the Gospel. It wont be easy, but there will be a choice. Stand with Jesus and pick up your cross, for he calls us to 'Come and die'. Or, Stand with the world, and claim your temporal reward.

troyzer · 03-05-2019 12:54pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions. As these anti-christian generations become our future, the harder it will be to be free. The further from the light, the darker it becomes.
Professing Christians have to take a lot of responsibility for this. Church scandals, A la Carte-ism. Religiosity and ritual without love. Dead faith. Hypocrisy. Its on our heads too.
The west, while nowhere near perfect by any means, has been a beacon of freedom, innovation, justice etc. Its no coincidence that Christian views of morality, mercy, justice etc is a foundation to this. And all its evils are in spite of Christs teachings.
Now the haters of Christians and christianity generally don't like to admit such things, and as the west grows darker, they'll blame everything but the fact that they have chopped the rudder off the ship.
I said it back in 2000 that LGBT activism was a Trojan horse, but unfortunately people got too caught up in the emotional blackmail to have any wisdom or foresight.
Israel Folau, for all I know is a terrible guy, or maybe he is a beautiful man. What I do know, is that there was absolutely nothing controversial in his now infamous tweet. But dissenters must be punished and driven from the public square. Folau is simply the latest casualty, and its going to get worse. Christians need to have the courage not to deny Jesus. We in the west have been spoiled, in that our views have always had the assumption that we are in common agreement about God, justice, sin etc. Those sands have shifted and continue to shift. The apostle Peter feared for his life when he denied Jesus 3 times. Thankfully, it has not yet reached the death penalty for us as is in some Islamic or communist regimes, but Christians will see their livelihoods threatened etc if they stand up for the Gospel. It wont be easy, but there will be a choice. Stand with Jesus and pick up your cross, for he calls us to 'Come and die'. Or, Stand with the world, and claim your temporal reward.

There's a lot of ****e in that rant.

But when did Jesus say anything about gay people?

lawred2 · 03-05-2019 12:55pm

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

ahahahahahahahaha

amcalester · 03-05-2019 1:10pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions.

Being the biggest religion in the world, this is hardly surprising. What is more relevant is, if a person is being persecuted, what religion are they likely to be. In the west, that religion is very unlikely to be Christian.

robinph · 03-05-2019 3:28pm

Being told that you cannot use hate speech against other groups of people and claim the excuse for doing so is your religion does not equate to you being persecuted. You have no rights to persecute others, but telling you that is still not persecuting you or denying you your rights.

sydthebeat · 03-05-2019 4:30pm

those who espouse morality are shown to be the most immoral.
those who espouse charity are shown to be the most cruel.
those that espouse love are shown to be the most hateful.

thankfully the world is slowly becoming enlightened to the snake oil that is organised religion.
Humans do not need a deity or dogma to tell them what is right and what is wrong.... we can determine that ourselves.

homer911 · 03-05-2019 4:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Humans do not need a deity or dogma to tell them what is right and what is wrong.... we can determine that ourselves.

Hmmm..

lawred2 · 03-05-2019 4:49pm

homer911 wrote: »

Hmmm..

homer911 · 03-05-2019 5:08pm

Looking back through the history of Israel's social media posts, its apparent he is a very direct speaker. As a Christian, the way he said what he said, is not the way I would have said it, nor indeed are his posts strictly correct from a Christian perspective IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven - its how you honour God in the way you love him and live your life that matters.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian, only God knows the person's heart. God calls all of us to give up our sinful ways when we become Christians - if we continue to live in sin, where is our heart? Not with God. Homosexuals are sinners just like heterosexuals. Israel in his Instagram post was quoting scripture - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NIV (Paul's first letter to the Corinthians) - Paul could have made his list a lot longer - he deliberately chose these references as they were widely associated with the heathen or unbelievers at the time - they were the exact opposite of what was expected of Christians

Are all Christians to be condemned in the same breath for believing in the inerrancy of the Bible?

homer911 · 03-05-2019 5:10pm

lawred2 wrote: »

If that was the case, then surely everyone would make correct moral decisions? It would be part of our DNA.

johnnyskeleton · 03-05-2019 5:13pm

troyzer wrote: »

But when did Jesus say anything about gay people?

As far as I know, when he said "love one another", I think he meant gay people too.

troyzer · 03-05-2019 5:29pm

homer911 wrote: »

Looking back through the history of Israel's social media posts, its apparent he is a very direct speaker. As a Christian, the way he said what he said, is not the way I would have said it, nor indeed are his posts strictly correct from a Christian perspective IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven - its how you honour God in the way you love him and live your life that matters.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian, only God knows the person's heart. God calls all of us to give up our sinful ways when we become Christians - if we continue to live in sin, where is our heart? Not with God. Homosexuals are sinners just like heterosexuals. Israel in his Instagram post was quoting scripture - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NIV (Paul's first letter to the Corinthians) - Paul could have made his list a lot longer - he deliberately chose these references as they were widely associated with the heathen or unbelievers at the time - they were the exact opposite of what was expected of Christians

Are all Christians to be condemned in the same breath for believing in the inerrancy of the Bible?

I'm going to try and explain it to you as somebody who clearly doesn't understand the problem.

The holiness code of Leviticus is a long list of stuff that is considered unclean or wrong. The original Abrahamic fascination with homosexuality stems from the holiness code yet it makes no distinction between the severity of lying with man as with woman and lesbianism which doesn't feature at all. So male on male is an abomination but lesbian action is fine? Leviticus makes no mention of incest between a father and daughter either, this is totally cool. It makes no mention of rape or paedophilia either, absolutely fine.

The book does however spend a lot of time on animal sacrifice. God describes to Moses in detail how he likes his sacrifices and yet I don't see Israel Folau killing goats. Why? The stock answer is that Christians are new testament people and don't believe in all that. But the ban on gay people stays?

Why? Because these people are already homophobic and are justifying it whatever way we can. This is what we object to. The fact that he's using his incredibly selective reading of the old testament to justify his bigotry. He does your own God no favours.

Jesus never once mentioned gay people in the new testament. It's simply not there. If you're going to be a new testament person, then don't say gay people are going to hell.

And if you are, then stick to your principles and prepare yourself for the fire because you haven't been sacrificing goats whilst too busy wearing nylon and cotton t-shirts.

Leviticus is also a load of crap because biblical studies have shown it's a much later addition to the Torah by a priestly clique. This is the equivalent of your local priest's mass notes slipping into the bible and people holding it in the same esteem as Revelation.

JimiTime · 03-05-2019 5:49pm

homer911 wrote: »

IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven

This concept can cause some confusion among some IMO.
It is not possible to engage in unrepentant sexual sin and be saved, and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin. But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course. We are called to be holy, not heterosexual. The fact that we all have the propensity to sin, we all have our own battles. But we are all called to do the same thing, and that is to come and die to the flesh, and be born again in the spirit. To repent of our sin and follow the messiah. Whether you are struggling with sexual sin, greed or whatever, your calling is the same. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Activists have successfully appealed to the latent hatred of God in the hearts of man, and their desire to follow the flesh. One cannot follow 2 masters afterall.

I think its important to preach the truth in love, and that also means warning people as to the destructive nature of sin. Too often you have people more concerned with trying not to offend than telling the truth. In the words of the Proverbs, 'Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but enemies multiply kisses'.

sydthebeat · 03-05-2019 6:17pm

JimiTime wrote: »

and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin.

thankfully secular modern societies reject this antiquated thinking.

JimiTime wrote: »

But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course

again, a right minded moral society would suggest that being forced to deny oneself for the promise of a rewarding afterlife is a hateful and cruel premise to put onto people who have no choice in who they are.

while you might think you are preaching this "in love" all that is felt by those that you are preaching to is hate and cruelty. so perhaps you ought to re-look at what you are considering to be sinful.

JimiTime · 03-05-2019 6:44pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

secular modern societies reject this thinking.

Yes, they do. And I'd go one further and say they wish to punish those who espouse it. Much to the delight of those who hate the light of God.
Indeed, as these generations become our future I predict that true Christians will become more and more hated. And of course, the fact that much of the justice, mercy etc we experience in the west is founded on Christian principles, the further we sail without the rudder (God) the more the west will decay and degenerate. In light of such a future, it wont be hard to see a real persecution coming to Christians in the west.

again, a right minded moral society would suggest that being forced to deny oneself for the promise of a rewarding afterlife is a hateful and cruel premise to put onto people who have no choice in who they are.

while you might think you are preaching this "in love" all that is felt by those that you are preaching to is hate and cruelty. so perhaps you ought to re-look at what you are considering to be sinful.

We ALL have our crosses to bear and our own struggles with the flesh.

Matthew 16:24-26
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?

But we must persevere when the world returns to its baseness.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

2 Timothy 3:1-5
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.

Christians have been suitably warned about how the world will perceive Godliness. But the world is not what we should follow.

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

sydthebeat · 03-05-2019 7:06pm

To be honest jimi you may as well be quoting winnie the pooh to me as quoting scripture..... As I hold both in the same regard.

The vision I have for the future is very much at odds with yours. I see humanity developing into a more civilised, federal society as it turns its back on organised religion due to the contraversies, judgement, divisiveness, extremism and fundamentalism that organised religion leads to

I see a rise in humanism and spiritualism in its place, based on a secular moralism. Eventually the moderates of the organised churches will be subsumed into this new humanism similarly to how Christianity subsumed the pagan religions of old.

lawred2 · 03-05-2019 7:44pm

homer911 wrote: »

If that was the case, then surely everyone would make correct moral decisions? It would be part of our DNA.

It is part of our DNA.

But everyone's innate understanding of what 'correct' means differs..

Organised religions interpretations of correct and moral are just as disparate and confused. And how could they be anything but given that they are nothing more than a crowd funding platform with added mob control.

lawred2 · 03-05-2019 7:45pm

JimiTime wrote: »

This concept can cause some confusion among some IMO.
It is not possible to engage in unrepentant sexual sin and be saved, and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin. But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course. We are called to be holy, not heterosexual. The fact that we all have the propensity to sin, we all have our own battles. But we are all called to do the same thing, and that is to come and die to the flesh, and be born again in the spirit. To repent of our sin and follow the messiah. Whether you are struggling with sexual sin, greed or whatever, your calling is the same. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Activists have successfully appealed to the latent hatred of God in the hearts of man, and their desire to follow the flesh. One cannot follow 2 masters afterall.

I think its important to preach the truth in love, and that also means warning people as to the destructive nature of sin. Too often you have people more concerned with trying not to offend than telling the truth. In the words of the Proverbs, 'Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but enemies multiply kisses'.

Don't mean to be offensive but I'm truly glad that I don't have this shoite going around inside my head

El_Duderino 09 · 03-05-2019 7:48pm

Why isn’t the thread called “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of intolerance”?

I don’t think it’s Falau’s abundance of tolerance that has gotten him into trouble.

JimiTime · 04-05-2019 3:02am

lawred2 wrote: »

Don't mean to be offensive but I'm truly glad that I don't have this shoite going around inside my head

None taken.

1 Corinthians 1.18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

JimiTime · 04-05-2019 3:25am

sydthebeat wrote: »

To be honest jimi you may as well be quoting winnie the pooh to me as quoting scripture..... As I hold both in the same regard.

I understand that. But I provided you some source material for Christian belief in spite of it. I don't believe the Quran is inspired by God, but I've enlightened myself for the sake of insight and understanding. It helps when talking to people to know where they are coming from, and it generally leads to a better and more productive conversation.

The vision I have for the future is very much at odds with yours. I see humanity developing into a more civilised, federal society as it turns its back on organised religion due to the contraversies, judgement, divisiveness, extremism and fundamentalism that organised religion leads to

I do believe that there will be a turning on religion, indeed, I think the process has already begun. But if you think humanity will be more civilised, I would suggest that history tells a different story. Its good to be hopeful, but I believe you will ultimately be disappointed if you think we are getting more civilised and less divisive.

I see a rise in humanism and spiritualism in its place, based on a secular moralism. Eventually the moderates of the organised churches will be subsumed into this new humanism similarly to how Christianity subsumed the pagan religions of old.

I agree that ambiguous concepts like 'humanism' and 'spirituality' will give many people who like to have a god of sorts, a sense of belonging in the world. It will allow them create it in their own image. It may even give a sense of purpose for a time. Essentially though, it will provide nothing of real substance. Much like the cultural 'Christianity' that exists through much of the west including our beautiful little island. Dead faith in many ways is worse than no faith in terms of Christianity. There's a reason Jesus had a special ire for hypocrisy.

JimiTime · 04-05-2019 3:39am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why isn’t the thread called “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of intolerance”?

I don’t think it’s Falau’s abundance of tolerance that has gotten him into trouble.

I assume its called, “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance”? due to the fact that while Folau has posted rather uncontroversial and commonly known doctrine about the concept of Christian salvation and what behaviour can lead to hell and what can save you, those who usually claim tolerance are doing their hardest to silence him, punish him, get him fired etc. It looks more like they are projecting their issues on others. I.E. THEY are actually the intolerant ones. Remember, we don't 'tolerate' people we agree with. The term 'tolerate', denotes our behaviour towards those we disagree with. Now as far as I'm aware, Folau hasn't called for the criminalisation of atheists, greedy people or those who have sex with members of the same sex. He has simply expressed a common Christian doctrine of the concept of sin and salvation. He has in fact called himself a sinner also. He disagrees with such people as to their behaviour being right or wrong.
However, for expressing this rather common Christian doctrine, people have called for all sorts of punishment on him. THAT is intolerance. That is saying, I disagree with you and I'm going to have you punished for thinking and saying that.

lawred2 · 04-05-2019 7:00am

JimiTime wrote: »

None taken.

1 Corinthians 1.18
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Handy that they thought of writing that one down.. all bases covered

El_Duderino 09 · 04-05-2019 7:54am

JimiTime wrote: »

I assume its called, “Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance”? due to the fact that while Folau has posted rather uncontroversial and commonly known doctrine about the concept of Christian salvation and what behaviour can lead to hell and what can save you, those who usually claim tolerance are doing their hardest to silence him, punish him, get him fired etc. It looks more like they are projecting their issues on others. I.E. THEY are actually the intolerant ones. Remember, we don't 'tolerate' people we agree with. The term 'tolerate', denotes our behaviour towards those we disagree with. Now as far as I'm aware, Folau hasn't called for the criminalisation of atheists, greedy people or those who have sex with members of the same sex. He has simply expressed a common Christian doctrine of the concept of sin and salvation. He has in fact called himself a sinner also. He disagrees with such people as to their behaviour being right or wrong.
However, for expressing this rather common Christian doctrine, people have called for all sorts of punishment on him. THAT is intolerance. That is saying, I disagree with you and I'm going to have you punished for thinking and saying that.

The Australian rugby union hasn’t criminalises his behaviour either. But they have chosen not to use his service as a player.

So while falou hasn’t criminalised atheists, gays or the greedy, he has condemned them to hell which is presumably much worse (if you believe in hell) than simply criminalising their behaviour in this mortal world or choosing not to use someone’s professional service.

I’m undecided on whether someone should be fired for voicing their racism or homophobia or sectarianism or whatever else they believe. If someone says racism or homophobia is part of their religion, I’m not sure whether they should be fired. It’s a complex issue. It might be enough that the rugby world does not agree with the Christian stance on gays, rugby is a game for everyone etc.

So I might be more tolerant of racism
Or homophobia or whatever as part of someone’s religion as long as the organisation is clear and sincere that they do not agree.

Note. The word homophobia doesn’t seem apt in this case as it means an irrational fear of gays but it is the word in common use to describe anti gay sentiments.

tritriagain · 04-05-2019 7:59am

Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.

troyzer · 04-05-2019 8:04am

tritriagain wrote: »

Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.

No one got hurt?

That's the problem, people did get hurt. Think about the gay teenager who idolises Australian rugby and is struggling with their sexuality. Teenagers are impressionable idiots and he's just been told by an icon that he's disgusting and wrong.

Think about the idiots who agree with him and would feel justified if a high profile person was allowed to spout ****e and get away with it. The same idiots who nearly killed Gareth Thomas for being gay.

sydthebeat · 04-05-2019 8:07am

tritriagain wrote: »

Amazes me how people get upset over things like this. He voiced his opinion. I'm allowed to voice mine . I think hes a clown. No one got hurt, ,move on.

If you think no one got hurt then you absolutely have no grasp of the crux of the issue at all.

Do you not think that a young man or woman who looks up to Israel folau, as one of the best rugby players in the world, isn't hurt when folau publishes words saying they are going to hell??

frag420 · 04-05-2019 8:37am

JimiTime wrote: »

Much to the delight of those who hate the light of God.

I often wonder about this light of God and why he or his followers are never able to shine it on the starving, the homeless, abuse victims, the weak etc etc!

Why only shine this light on two(or maybe more) grown men who are naked and having hot loving sex with one another...if anything that’s a bit gay wouldn't you think,

Christians fascination with two men naked in bed together having loving sex with one another, why is this more important than helping the poor, hungry and weak, is that not the Christian thing to do?

one world order · 04-05-2019 8:59am

frag420 wrote: »

I often wonder about this light of God and why he or his followers are never able to shine it on the starving, the homeless, abuse victims, the weak etc etc!

Why only shine this light on two(or maybe more) grown men who are naked and having hot loving sex with one another...if anything that’s a bit gay wouldn't you think,

Christians fascination with two men naked in bed together having loving sex with one another, why is this more important than helping the poor, hungry and weak, is that not the Christian thing to do?

It's those that have moved towards the acceptance of sin that are more focused on accepting homosexuality as normal behaviour than any of the other sins mentioned in the bible. God created man and woman to be with each other and rule over the animals on earth. The difference between good and bad in society has become distorted as the evil that oversea this world through the financial system, mainstream media, music and tv industry has being leading us on a path away from God towards sinful life's and accepting sinful behaviour.

frag420 · 04-05-2019 9:17am

one world order wrote: »

It's those that have moved towards the acceptance of sin that are more focused on accepting homosexuality as normal behaviour than any of the other sins mentioned in the bible. God created man and woman to be with each other and rule over the animals on earth. The difference between good and bad in society has become distorted as the evil that oversea this world through the financial system, mainstream media, music and tv industry has being leading us on a path away from God towards sinful life's and accepting sinful behaviour.

Is he not powerful enough to change things for the good, it’s God after all!?

one world order · 04-05-2019 9:35am

frag420 wrote: »

Is he not powerful enough to change things for the good, it’s God after all!?

We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.

troyzer · 04-05-2019 9:36am

one world order wrote: »

We just return to old ways again. When he created the Jewish people they turned away from God over time, ended up getting enslaved, cryied out to God, he would save them and the cycle repeats again and again. It's up to us individually to seek out god and turn away from our sinful hearts.

But doesn't God make us sinful?

You can't have a God who is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent at the same time. It's not possible in a world with such suffering.

one world order · 04-05-2019 9:42am

troyzer wrote: »

But doesn't God make us sinful?

You can't have a God who is all knowing, all powerful and benevolent at the same time. It's not possible in a world with such suffering.

The Devil makes us sinful and gives us sinful thoughts. It's up to us to either act on those sinful thoughts or ask god for help with the sinful temptations.

amcalester · 04-05-2019 9:58am

Who made the devil?

Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

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