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Israel Folau, Billy Vunipola and the intolerance of tolerance

homer911

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

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sydthebeat

Have been hibernating for the last two weeks??

robinph

You not being allowed to discriminate against others is not discrimination against you.

is_that_so

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

I think it's the word respectful that was lacking in the original tweet.

troyzer

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing an opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

Some views simply shouldn't be tolerated.

If Folau had come out and said black people will burn in hell or Jewish people, you wouldn't accept him being raised to believe it as an excuse. There's no difference.

The suicide rate among gay teenagers is shocking as well as the almost non existence of rugby players willing to come out. Both of these things can be attributed to a historic intolerance of who they are. We are trying to stamp that out.

Backwards views are backwards. I don't care if they're sincerely held. If you believe something that is morally repugnant, you are morally repugnant.

sydthebeat

Been done to death here

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057972315/1

And I don't expect there to be any greater understanding of the issue in a Christianity forum than there is in an atheist forum.

homer911

sydthebeat wrote: »

And I don't expect there to be any greater understanding of the idea in a Christianity forum than there is in an atheist forum.

I would say quite the opposite if Christians actually respond but these kinds of stories tend to brink out the lurkers from the Atheist forum, perhaps that's why there has been no discussion on this forum so far

homer911

robinph wrote: »

You not being allowed to discriminate against others is not discrimination against you.

I'd don't believe discrimination was ever mentioned. Hate was never mentioned, quite the opposite. This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

The comments were also about sin, homosexuality was mentioned in a list of other sins

homer911

is_that_so wrote: »

I think it's the word respectful that was lacking in the original tweet.

Can't disagree with you there, I was more focused on Billy Vunipola's response

Zaph

homer911 wrote: »

This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

Just because it existed for thousands of years doesn't mean that the intolerance shown to the gay community was right, or even acceptable. That anyone still holding those views is seen as being wrong is merely redressing the balance and putting to right a long-standing injustice.

robinph

homer911 wrote: »

I'd don't believe discrimination was ever mentioned. Hate was never mentioned, quite the opposite. This is about tolerance. The western world has (very recently in relative terms) decided to show tolerance to homosexual people, yet it is intolerant of those who have hold a different view for thousands of years

The comments were also about sin, homosexuality was mentioned in a list of other sins

So you are upset that you can no longer be intolerant of others then?

homer911

robinph wrote: »

So you are upset that you can no longer be intolerant of others then?

I don't think you read the article

robinph

homer911 wrote: »

I don't think you read the article

It just seems to be about wanting to be intolerant of others because you were allowed to be intolerant of others before. What did I miss?

smacl

homer911 wrote: »

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe.

I don't think it is a respectful opinion though. While I'm not gay, I'm an atheist and according to Folau, I'm going to hell because of this. Unless I repent of course. There is nothing respectful or respectable about this "burn or turn" style of Christianity in this day and age, and I fully support him being sanctioned for it, particularly as he's already been warned about this in the past.

recedite

I think its his honestly held opinion. While I'm not gay, I'm an atheist and according to Folau, I'm going to hell because of this. Unless I repent of course. That's a fair warning, nothing wrong with that.
I'll ignore it of course, but I'll also defend his right to free speech.

matrim

I think it's a disgrace that someone can be fired for having a genuine and honest belief. We should definitely be looking to make sure that it can't happen here. And as part of that I hope you are all emailing your TDs to remove the law which allows religious schools to fire and discriminate against teachers who are of a different / no faith. We all celebrated when religious schools were no longer allowed to discriminate against gay teachers and teachers who were cohabiting or had children outside marriage. So lets take it a step further and remove the other discrimination they are allowed to do with state money.

As for Folau, he wasn't fired for being christian. He was fired for (twice) publicly saying that a number of his colleagues / teammates / opponents were evil and deserve to go to hell. This despite participating in inclusionary marketing campaigns and signing a contract which states he won't publicly say things like that on social media.

In the teacher case, this would be like an atheist teacher being hired by a catholic school who have a contract provision that they can't promote atheism / talk against the church in public. They work well for a number of years. One day they comes in and in the parking lot in front of parents and students shouts "There is no God and anyone who supports the catholic church is defending pedos". The principal takes him in and warns him not to do it again. A year later he does the same thing and this time gets fired. He wouldn't be fired for being an atheist, he would be fired for being an asshole who can't keep his opinion to himself despite signing a contract that states he wouldn't do that.

is_that_so

matrim wrote: »

I think it's a disgrace that someone can be fired for having a genuine and honest belief. We should definitely be looking to make sure that it can't happen here. And as part of that I hope you are all emailing your TDs to remove the law which allows religious schools to fire and discriminate against teachers who are of a different / no faith. We all celebrated when religious schools were no longer allowed to discriminate against gay teachers and teachers who were cohabiting or had children outside marriage. So lets take it a step further and remove the other discrimination they are allowed to do with state money.

As for Folau, he wasn't fired for being christian. He was fired for (twice) publicly saying that a number of his colleagues / teammates / opponents were evil and deserve to go to hell. This despite participating in inclusionary marketing campaigns and signing a contract which states he won't publicly say things like that on social media.

In the teacher case, this would be like an atheist teacher being hired by a catholic school who have a contract provision that they can't promote atheism / talk against the church in public. They work well for a number of years. One day they comes in and in the parking lot in front of parents and students shouts "There is no God and anyone who supports the catholic church is defending pedos". The principal takes him in and warns him not to do it again. A year later he does the same thing and this time gets fired. He wouldn't be fired for being an atheist, he would be fired for being an asshole who can't keep his opinion to himself despite signing a contract that states he wouldn't do that.

It wasn't the honest belief he was fired for. He targeted a specific group of people publicly by exploiting his position and fame. His employer saw that as cause.

JimiTime

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions. As these anti-christian generations become our future, the harder it will be to be free. The further from the light, the darker it becomes.
Professing Christians have to take a lot of responsibility for this. Church scandals, A la Carte-ism. Religiosity and ritual without love. Dead faith. Hypocrisy. Its on our heads too.
The west, while nowhere near perfect by any means, has been a beacon of freedom, innovation, justice etc. Its no coincidence that Christian views of morality, mercy, justice etc is a foundation to this. And all its evils are in spite of Christs teachings.
Now the haters of Christians and christianity generally don't like to admit such things, and as the west grows darker, they'll blame everything but the fact that they have chopped the rudder off the ship.
I said it back in 2000 that LGBT activism was a Trojan horse, but unfortunately people got too caught up in the emotional blackmail to have any wisdom or foresight.
Israel Folau, for all I know is a terrible guy, or maybe he is a beautiful man. What I do know, is that there was absolutely nothing controversial in his now infamous tweet. But dissenters must be punished and driven from the public square. Folau is simply the latest casualty, and its going to get worse. Christians need to have the courage not to deny Jesus. We in the west have been spoiled, in that our views have always had the assumption that we are in common agreement about God, justice, sin etc. Those sands have shifted and continue to shift. The apostle Peter feared for his life when he denied Jesus 3 times. Thankfully, it has not yet reached the death penalty for us as is in some Islamic or communist regimes, but Christians will see their livelihoods threatened etc if they stand up for the Gospel. It wont be easy, but there will be a choice. Stand with Jesus and pick up your cross, for he calls us to 'Come and die'. Or, Stand with the world, and claim your temporal reward.

troyzer

JimiTime wrote: »

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions. As these anti-christian generations become our future, the harder it will be to be free. The further from the light, the darker it becomes.
Professing Christians have to take a lot of responsibility for this. Church scandals, A la Carte-ism. Religiosity and ritual without love. Dead faith. Hypocrisy. Its on our heads too.
The west, while nowhere near perfect by any means, has been a beacon of freedom, innovation, justice etc. Its no coincidence that Christian views of morality, mercy, justice etc is a foundation to this. And all its evils are in spite of Christs teachings.
Now the haters of Christians and christianity generally don't like to admit such things, and as the west grows darker, they'll blame everything but the fact that they have chopped the rudder off the ship.
I said it back in 2000 that LGBT activism was a Trojan horse, but unfortunately people got too caught up in the emotional blackmail to have any wisdom or foresight.
Israel Folau, for all I know is a terrible guy, or maybe he is a beautiful man. What I do know, is that there was absolutely nothing controversial in his now infamous tweet. But dissenters must be punished and driven from the public square. Folau is simply the latest casualty, and its going to get worse. Christians need to have the courage not to deny Jesus. We in the west have been spoiled, in that our views have always had the assumption that we are in common agreement about God, justice, sin etc. Those sands have shifted and continue to shift. The apostle Peter feared for his life when he denied Jesus 3 times. Thankfully, it has not yet reached the death penalty for us as is in some Islamic or communist regimes, but Christians will see their livelihoods threatened etc if they stand up for the Gospel. It wont be easy, but there will be a choice. Stand with Jesus and pick up your cross, for he calls us to 'Come and die'. Or, Stand with the world, and claim your temporal reward.

There's a lot of ****e in that rant.

But when did Jesus say anything about gay people?

lawred2

homer911 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this topic here, perhaps its been well covered on twitter, but I'm not a user.

The secular world seems intent on punishing two rugby players for expressing a respectful opinion about something they have been brought up to believe. I wish I had half the courage to speak up about things I am required to tolerate as a Christian in a secular world

http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=7695&itemTitle=Folau%2C+Vunipola+and+the+intolerance+of+the+culture+of+tolerance&section=0001000100190024

ahahahahahahahaha

amcalester

JimiTime wrote: »

Said it from the start. LGBT activism will not stop until it drives Christians into the closet. But Christians need to remember that this world hated Christ first. Its getting worse now, but you aint seen nothing yet. In a world context, they are one of the most persecuted religions.

Being the biggest religion in the world, this is hardly surprising. What is more relevant is, if a person is being persecuted, what religion are they likely to be. In the west, that religion is very unlikely to be Christian.

robinph

Being told that you cannot use hate speech against other groups of people and claim the excuse for doing so is your religion does not equate to you being persecuted. You have no rights to persecute others, but telling you that is still not persecuting you or denying you your rights.

sydthebeat

those who espouse morality are shown to be the most immoral.
those who espouse charity are shown to be the most cruel.
those that espouse love are shown to be the most hateful.

thankfully the world is slowly becoming enlightened to the snake oil that is organised religion.
Humans do not need a deity or dogma to tell them what is right and what is wrong.... we can determine that ourselves.

homer911

sydthebeat wrote: »

Humans do not need a deity or dogma to tell them what is right and what is wrong.... we can determine that ourselves.

Hmmm..

lawred2

homer911 wrote: »

Hmmm..

homer911

Looking back through the history of Israel's social media posts, its apparent he is a very direct speaker. As a Christian, the way he said what he said, is not the way I would have said it, nor indeed are his posts strictly correct from a Christian perspective IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven - its how you honour God in the way you love him and live your life that matters.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian, only God knows the person's heart. God calls all of us to give up our sinful ways when we become Christians - if we continue to live in sin, where is our heart? Not with God. Homosexuals are sinners just like heterosexuals. Israel in his Instagram post was quoting scripture - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NIV (Paul's first letter to the Corinthians) - Paul could have made his list a lot longer - he deliberately chose these references as they were widely associated with the heathen or unbelievers at the time - they were the exact opposite of what was expected of Christians

Are all Christians to be condemned in the same breath for believing in the inerrancy of the Bible?

homer911

lawred2 wrote: »

If that was the case, then surely everyone would make correct moral decisions? It would be part of our DNA.

johnnyskeleton

troyzer wrote: »

But when did Jesus say anything about gay people?

As far as I know, when he said "love one another", I think he meant gay people too.

troyzer

homer911 wrote: »

Looking back through the history of Israel's social media posts, its apparent he is a very direct speaker. As a Christian, the way he said what he said, is not the way I would have said it, nor indeed are his posts strictly correct from a Christian perspective IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven - its how you honour God in the way you love him and live your life that matters.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian, only God knows the person's heart. God calls all of us to give up our sinful ways when we become Christians - if we continue to live in sin, where is our heart? Not with God. Homosexuals are sinners just like heterosexuals. Israel in his Instagram post was quoting scripture - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+6%3A9-10&version=NIV (Paul's first letter to the Corinthians) - Paul could have made his list a lot longer - he deliberately chose these references as they were widely associated with the heathen or unbelievers at the time - they were the exact opposite of what was expected of Christians

Are all Christians to be condemned in the same breath for believing in the inerrancy of the Bible?

I'm going to try and explain it to you as somebody who clearly doesn't understand the problem.

The holiness code of Leviticus is a long list of stuff that is considered unclean or wrong. The original Abrahamic fascination with homosexuality stems from the holiness code yet it makes no distinction between the severity of lying with man as with woman and lesbianism which doesn't feature at all. So male on male is an abomination but lesbian action is fine? Leviticus makes no mention of incest between a father and daughter either, this is totally cool. It makes no mention of rape or paedophilia either, absolutely fine.

The book does however spend a lot of time on animal sacrifice. God describes to Moses in detail how he likes his sacrifices and yet I don't see Israel Folau killing goats. Why? The stock answer is that Christians are new testament people and don't believe in all that. But the ban on gay people stays?

Why? Because these people are already homophobic and are justifying it whatever way we can. This is what we object to. The fact that he's using his incredibly selective reading of the old testament to justify his bigotry. He does your own God no favours.

Jesus never once mentioned gay people in the new testament. It's simply not there. If you're going to be a new testament person, then don't say gay people are going to hell.

And if you are, then stick to your principles and prepare yourself for the fire because you haven't been sacrificing goats whilst too busy wearing nylon and cotton t-shirts.

Leviticus is also a load of crap because biblical studies have shown it's a much later addition to the Torah by a priestly clique. This is the equivalent of your local priest's mass notes slipping into the bible and people holding it in the same esteem as Revelation.

JimiTime

homer911 wrote: »

IMO - It is possible to be gay and go to heaven

This concept can cause some confusion among some IMO.
It is not possible to engage in unrepentant sexual sin and be saved, and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin. But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course. We are called to be holy, not heterosexual. The fact that we all have the propensity to sin, we all have our own battles. But we are all called to do the same thing, and that is to come and die to the flesh, and be born again in the spirit. To repent of our sin and follow the messiah. Whether you are struggling with sexual sin, greed or whatever, your calling is the same. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Activists have successfully appealed to the latent hatred of God in the hearts of man, and their desire to follow the flesh. One cannot follow 2 masters afterall.

I think its important to preach the truth in love, and that also means warning people as to the destructive nature of sin. Too often you have people more concerned with trying not to offend than telling the truth. In the words of the Proverbs, 'Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but enemies multiply kisses'.

sydthebeat

JimiTime wrote: »

and a man or woman who engages in sexual behaviour with members of their own sex is without doubt committing sin.

thankfully secular modern societies reject this antiquated thinking.

JimiTime wrote: »

But you can of course be same sex attracted and be saved of course

again, a right minded moral society would suggest that being forced to deny oneself for the promise of a rewarding afterlife is a hateful and cruel premise to put onto people who have no choice in who they are.

while you might think you are preaching this "in love" all that is felt by those that you are preaching to is hate and cruelty. so perhaps you ought to re-look at what you are considering to be sinful.