Vegan and vegetarian meals kill more animals than you think

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 1:15am #1

I just found this out this is really interesting.

I am a vegetarian myself.

But read this

Published figures suggest that, in Australia, producing wheat, rice and other grains results in:

at least 25 times more sentient animals being killed per kilogram of usable protein
more environmental damage, and
a great deal more animal cruelty than does farming red meat.

How is this possible?

Agriculture to produce wheat, rice and pulses requires clear-felling native vegetation. That act alone results in the deaths of thousands of Australian animals and plants per hectare. Since Europeans arrived on this continent we have lost more than half of Australia’s unique native vegetation, mostly to increase production of monocultures of introduced species for human consumption.

Rabbits mice insects etc all would eat vegetables rains etc are all killed in thousands to produce rice wheat potatoes and vegetables.

If you have ever lived near a farm or on one. You know.

Grazing on the other hand occurs on primarily native ecosystems. These have and maintain far higher levels of native biodiversity than croplands. The rangelands can’t be used to produce crops, so production of meat here doesn’t limit production of plant foods. And you don't need to protect grazing land from mice and rabbits etc by killing them.

Its the same with fruits. Even organic fruits. Lots of animals who would feed on them have to be killed to ensure they grow.

If you have a veggie stir fry versus one steak on a place ..the veggie stir fry has actually killed more animals than the steak.

Still not eating meat though i just don't like it.

Thelonious Monk · 24-05-2019 1:31am

God not this again.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 4:36am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

God not this again.

OOOPS

AngryHippie · 24-05-2019 6:00am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Published figures suggest that, in Australia, producing wheat, rice and other grains results in:

I'll read them
Post a link

marklazarcovic · 24-05-2019 6:10am

Nobody gives a fcuk

AngryHippie · 24-05-2019 6:18am

Theres always 1

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 6:37am

AngryHippie wrote: »

I'll read them
Post a link

Austrailia

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-technology/vegetarian-dilemma

Others.

http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2018/07/how-many-animals-killed-in-agriculture/

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/mice-the-biggest-losers-w-vegetarianism/4660498

I don't mean it as an attack on Vegans etc. It's just interesting to me.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 6:39am

AngryHippie wrote: »

Theres always 1

Hi Angry Hippie. I take it you choose to be vegetarian? I am sorry you feel personally attacked it was not my intention.

I am veggie myself.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 6:53am

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Nobody gives a fcuk

I understand your sentiment.

Today everything is so political its exhausting.

But I would wager vegans themselves care.

As a veggie i care.

fergiesfolly · 24-05-2019 6:56am

You start to think, the only way for us to save the planet, is to get the hell off of it.

evolving_doors · 24-05-2019 6:59am

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Nobody gives a fcuk

You obviously do :pac:

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 7:00am

fergiesfolly wrote: »

You start to think, the only way for us to save the planet, is to get the hell off of it.

I think its more about balance. Humans tend to come up with extreme solutions.

Noted though. We do have to live!

Hoboo · 24-05-2019 7:01am

Why is there so much anger?

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 7:03am

Hoboo wrote: »

Why is there so much anger?

Ooops. I am not angry :P whether you are veggie or not...no reason to be angry.

Apologies if it came off this way. There is too much of that in the world.

Hoboo · 24-05-2019 7:17am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ooops. I am not angry :P whether you are veggie or not...no reason to be angry.

Apologies if it came off this way. There is too much of that in the world.

Not anger from you, directed AT you. Found the post quite interesting, yet some of the responses, and first thing in the morning. It's Friday, and a fine looking one at that.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 7:24am

Hoboo wrote: »

Not anger from you, directed AT you. Found the post quite interesting, yet some of the responses, and first thing in the morning. It's Friday, and a fine looking one at that.

Oh thank you I am glad you found it interesting. It was something i was reading.

Ah i understand what you mean.

Very true gorgeous Friday ! :P

I think it's the quick snap response based on a twitter environment etc.

Also perhaps they are not angry. When you are short etc it can come across as anger.

Thank you for being so kind though.

I appreciate it.

KungPao · 24-05-2019 7:31am

We are a cancer on the planet. The sooner antibiotics stop working and we die off, the better.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 7:34am

KungPao wrote: »

We are a cancer on the planet. The sooner antibiotics stop working and we die off, the better.

I feel guilty now!

conor2469 · 24-05-2019 10:02am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

If you have a veggie stir fry versus one steak on a place ..the veggie stir fry has actually killed more animals than the steak.

An interesting concept, not true though. What percentage of crops grown are directly consumed by humans?

There are lots of different articles with percentages, I'm going to grab the first one I found in google:

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed

Article starts off with:

Just 55 percent of the world's crop calories are actually eaten directly by people. Another 36 percent is used for animal feed.

So according to this article, if you eat animal products then you are doing 36% more harm than people who abstain from them.

Don't feel guilty OP.

OEP · 24-05-2019 10:09am

conor2469 wrote: »

An interesting concept, not true though. What percentage of crops grown are directly consumed by humans?

There are lots of different articles with percentages, I'm going to grab the first one I found in google:

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed

Article starts off with:

Just 55 percent of the world's crop calories are actually eaten directly by people. Another 36 percent is used for animal feed.

So according to this article, if you eat animal products then you are doing 36% more harm than people who abstain from them.

Don't feel guilty OP.

So it could be argued that eating Irish meat would kill less wild/native animals than being a vegetarian would, given that Irish meat is primarily fed on grass rather than a grain based diet like lots of other countries.

Something that should be looked at is alternative feeds for animals, such as insects. Insects thrive in confined environments, can feed off waste organic matter and have a high dry protein content. If we were to use this as animal feed, or at least supplement animal feed with this, then we could reduce the reliance on grains and other crops to be used as animal feed - thus reducing the environmental impact.

conor2469 · 24-05-2019 10:15am

OEP wrote: »

So it could be argued that eating Irish meat would kill less wild/native animals than being a vegetarian would, given that Irish meat is primarily fed on grass rather than a grain based diet like lots of other countries.

No because in winter we do have to put our livestock in sheds and feed them silage and cattle feeds which are plants that had to be harvested

Melanie McGrane · 24-05-2019 10:18am

Can't believe this! Here was me thinking I was doing 'clean eating' and saving animals by being vegetarian. What a frost!

OEP · 24-05-2019 10:25am

conor2469 wrote: »

No because in winter we do have to put our livestock in sheds and feed them silage and cattle feeds which are plants that had to be harvested

Yes, for approx 25% of the year. So that's 1/4 of the impact that feeding animals in say the US has, where it's pretty much grain all year round. Silage also has a much smaller impact than feeding grains.

conor2469 · 24-05-2019 10:32am

OEP wrote: »

Yes, for approx 25% of the year. So that's 1/4 of the impact that feeding animals in say the US has, where it's pretty much grain all year round. Silage also has a much smaller impact than feeding grains.

In Ireland, when cows are confined they are fed hay, silage and cattle feeds. So we need to harvest enough to feed this livestock for 25% of year, thats a lot, not as much as the US, but still a lot.

dodderangler · 24-05-2019 10:36am

KungPao wrote: »

We are a cancer on the planet. The sooner antibiotics stop working and we die off, the better.

People like you really pïss me off. Always complaining about humans this and that and what are you doing to save this planet??
Would you ever cop onto yourself.

Fr_Dougal · 24-05-2019 10:38am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I feel guilty now!

802 posts in 24 days...that must be some sort of boards.ie record.

OEP · 24-05-2019 10:54am

conor2469 wrote: »

In Ireland, when cows are confined they are fed hay, silage and cattle feeds. So we need to harvest enough to feed this livestock for 25% of year, thats a lot, not as much as the US, but still a lot.

Not that much really. My argument isn't that we're not feeding them, it's that feeding them for this portion of the year could be having less of an impact on native/wild animals than if we were to grow crops to feed everyone as a vegetarian.

The crux of your point was that feeding animals uses 36% of crops grown globally, but that ratio doesn't apply to the Irish system of animal production - which brings us back to my argument about eating Irish meat.

Of course I don't have numbers to back this up, but some knowledge of meat production in Ireland vs the rest of the world, and using your figures and the OP's, makes it a reasonable argument.

kneemos · 24-05-2019 10:58am

conor2469 wrote: »

In Ireland, when cows are confined they are fed hay, silage and cattle feeds. So we need to harvest enough to feed this livestock for 25% of year, thats a lot, not as much as the US, but still a lot.

Silage and hay comes from the same grass they eat in the summer.
That's a neutral effect.

conor2469 · 24-05-2019 11:13am

OEP wrote: »

Not that much really. My argument isn't that we're not feeding them, it's that feeding them for this portion of the year could be having less of an impact on native/wild animals than if we were to grow crops to feed everyone as a vegetarian.

The crux of your point was that feeding animals uses 36% of crops grown globally, but that ratio doesn't apply to the Irish system of animal production - which brings us back to my argument about eating Irish meat.

Of course I don't have numbers to back this up, but some knowledge of meat production in Ireland vs the rest of the world, and using your figures and the OP's, makes it a reasonable argument.

Here are some rough figures I grabbed off google, these are rough estimates and I'm crap at maths but it gives some idea

Say a cow eats 11 kilos per day
they are slaughtered at 12-14 months.
They are in 25% of the year = 91 days

91x11 = 1001kg of feed over winter per head.
Each cow produces 195 kg of retail cuts (Google said so, feel free to correct)

So 1001kg of harvested plants eventually converts into 195 kg of retail cuts of meat
5kg of harvested plants made 1 kg of meat.

I still cant see how an Irish steak is less harmful to the environment and wildlife than the equivalent calories in plants is.

To put it in perspective (Yes more google figures, but use them as a rough estimate)
Say A human eats 2.25 kilo a day
2.25 x365 = 821 kg per year

kneemos wrote: »

Silage and hay comes from the same grass they eat in the summer.
That's a neutral effect.

Not necessarily, the grass is mown and made into bales, surely this would be regarded as harvesting? Similar to how grains are harvested.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:13am

conor2469 wrote: »

An interesting concept, not true though. What percentage of crops grown are directly consumed by humans?

There are lots of different articles with percentages, I'm going to grab the first one I found in google:

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053187/cropland-map-food-fuel-animal-feed

Article starts off with:

Just 55 percent of the world's crop calories are actually eaten directly by people. Another 36 percent is used for animal feed.

So according to this article, if you eat animal products then you are doing 36% more harm than people who abstain from them.

Don't feel guilty OP.

Awh thanks

Guilt is a wasted emotion. And its not healthy ..all the negativity waits for it.

Did anyone ever you guys guilt was a useless emotion when you were little? Like a priest or something?

If you have to do something you just do it with joy in your heart.

24-05-2019 11:18am

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

Its often a cultural thing.

conor2469 · 24-05-2019 11:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

yeah people don't realise how hypocritical they are sometimes, giving out about hunters while they sit there munching chicken nuggets. :pac:

Although I suppose a rabbit looks cuter than a vacuum sealed packet of lamb!

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:31am

conor2469 wrote: »

yeah people don't realise how hypocritical they are sometimes, giving out about hunters while they sit there munching chicken nuggets. :pac:

Although I suppose a rabbit looks cuter than a vacuum sealed packet of lamb!

IT REALLY REALLY DOES LOOK!

Look at the softness of his fur ...look at the pawsiness of his feet! So pawsy! The cutsiness of his face! How could i not swoon over him!?? :P:P

I AM ONLY HUMAN!

24-05-2019 11:33am

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one

But actually wild rabbit is somewhat less cute than the pet shop version.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one

But actually wild rabbit is somewhat less cute than the pet shop version.

So i hear!

Thelonious Monk · 24-05-2019 11:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

Are you just assuming they’re buying this lamb?

dodderangler · 24-05-2019 11:39am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one.

What do you mean? Why would you use a knife to kill it? Grab it’s back legs and give the neck a quick yank. Does the job every time.
Or you could grab it legs and hold it upside down and basically chop the neck with your hand. Plenty of ways to do it.

24-05-2019 11:43am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are you just assuming they’re buying this lamb?

No. Cooking with and for friends is a big thing for me. Where some people have religion and some people have alcohol and some people have TV - food has always been my main social lubricant. Especially dips. I am a complete and utter manic fiend for dips.

So I am quite intimate with the feeding habits of my friends and social circles. More so than is normal I think.

dodderangler wrote: »

What do you mean? Why would you use a knife to kill it? Grab it’s back legs and give the neck a quick yank. Does the job every time.

I meant it more figuratively than literally. Actually I have a kinda neck vice thing to slot them in and then do a nice downward yank thing as you describe. The only thing I have ever personally killed with a knife is fish I think.

EDIT: Actually no that's a lie. I did lop the head off a chicken once. Actually "lop" was quite onomatopoeic for the experience as I recall.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:47am

Thread just took a dark turn.

Former Observer · 24-05-2019 11:48am

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

24-05-2019 11:53am

Former Observer wrote: »

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

Yea that tends to be one of the reasons I enjoying offing bunny rabbits. Wild Rabbit tends to - or at least I assume they did - lived a somewhat free-er and happier life than anything that produced chicken nuggets. And the Christmas goose we eat in my house actually grew up as part of our family before I ship it to my friendly butcher.

Or at least I assume so. Who knows the relative level of well being a rabbit constantly in terror of it's life from foxes actually underwent! Perhaps it is utterly miserable as an existence! But I think we tend to assume that "wild, free and natural" is happier than living in a box.

The funny thing is our narratives on animal freedom tend not to map onto reality. There is a _lovely_ german guy who runs an animal sanctuary for mostly birds near Sligo. But other animals too. And people often ask him are his captive birds not miserable and do they not want to fly free. But in fact when he sets them loose for their daily freedom the first think they want to do is go sit on a tree branch near by. Actually flying is the last thing they actually want to do. They actually want to naturally conserve as much energy as they can for as long as they can.

We just imagine it is because the thought of flying free appeals to _us_.

So I dunno! But I still off wild rabbit over farmed meat under the story I tell myself that the meat was happier. I wonder how much we really know though.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 11:59am

Former Observer wrote: »

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

I am sure you mean well. But You have zero idea of what went on in concentration camps. They were no where near as humane as farms. If only.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 12:04pm

You know it is possible to have a debate while being nice to each other.

Former Observer · 24-05-2019 12:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But I still off wild rabbit over farmed meat under the story I tell myself that the meat was happier. I wonder how much we really know though.

I appreciate your outlook. As long as people exercise a little care, thought and compassion about their actions I feel we can find common ground.

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant. This is the same crowd who think the answer to every moral dilemma regarding the rearing of pigs is "bacon sammichs though". Total bottom feeders.

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

ILoveYourVibes · 24-05-2019 12:08pm

Former Observer wrote: »

I appreciate your outlook. As long as people exercise a little care, thought and compassion about their actions I feel we can find common ground.

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant. This is the same crowd who think the answer to every moral dilemma regarding the rearing of pigs is "bacon sammichs though". Total bottom feeders.

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

How is it you are able to hate people so easily? Is that not dangerous?

Same for meat eaters hunters etc. Do they hate vegans ? Or animal rights activists?

OEP · 24-05-2019 12:08pm

conor2469 wrote: »

Here are some rough figures I grabbed off google, these are rough estimates and I'm crap at maths but it gives some idea

Say a cow eats 11 kilos per day
they are slaughtered at 12-14 months.
They are in 25% of the year = 91 days

91x11 = 1001kg of feed over winter per head.
Each cow produces 195 kg of retail cuts (Google said so, feel free to correct)

So 1001kg of harvested plants eventually converts into 195 kg of retail cuts of meat
5kg of harvested plants made 1 kg of meat.

I still cant see how an Irish steak is less harmful to the environment and wildlife than the equivalent calories in plants is.

To put it in perspective (Yes more google figures, but use them as a rough estimate)
Say A human eats 2.25 kilo a day
2.25 x365 = 821 kg per year

Fair play - I'm going to give in here!

Former Observer · 24-05-2019 12:10pm

I'd argue that historically the factory farming of animals is worse than what happened at Auschwitz, fake vegetarian. And that is something that low IQ breakfast roll guzzlers should have to reckon with.

But we are going off topic a little.

emaherx · 24-05-2019 12:11pm

conor2469 wrote: »

Here are some rough figures I grabbed off google, these are rough estimates and I'm crap at maths but it gives some idea

Say a cow eats 11 kilos per day
they are slaughtered at 12-14 months.
They are in 25% of the year = 91 days

91x11 = 1001kg of feed over winter per head.
Each cow produces 195 kg of retail cuts (Google said so, feel free to correct)

So 1001kg of harvested plants eventually converts into 195 kg of retail cuts of meat
5kg of harvested plants made 1 kg of meat.

I still cant see how an Irish steak is less harmful to the environment and wildlife than the equivalent calories in plants is.

To put it in perspective (Yes more google figures, but use them as a rough estimate)
Say A human eats 2.25 kilo a day
2.25 x365 = 821 kg per year

Not necessarily, the grass is mown and made into bales, surely this would be regarded as harvesting? Similar to how grains are harvested.

Except grass lands require much less tilling of soils which is the most destructive part of growing crops. Also no blanket spraying of insecticide nessacery at all which is what kills the most sentient creatures in growing crops.

Former Observer · 24-05-2019 12:12pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How is it you are able to hate people so easily? Is that not dangerous

People who answer complex moral questions about animal welfare with pithy bacons sammich jokes are deserving of derision. I don't hate them. I look down on them. Different thing.

24-05-2019 12:13pm

Former Observer wrote: »

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant.

You are probably 100% right. I really believe you are. But at the same time I do find that belief is one that does get challenged if you let it.

Like I said the concept of flight - and how free and liberating we tell ourselves flight must be - is a great example of this. Ask most people what super power they want and flight gets selected really often.

So we imagine that a bird caged must be miserable. But the moment we let them off their perch and out of a cage the first thing they do is find a branch to sit on.

So while I believe in myself free animals must be infinitely happier than caged ones - I see something like that in that place in Sligo and my belief and faith in that narrative just gets - challenged.

I strongly recommend everyone go to that sanctuary. The place is lovely the the german couple who run it even more so. And they do not get near enough footfall to cover the expenses of looking after the animals the way they do. It is called "Eagles Flying" and I could not wax lyrical enough about it without literally becoming a shill.

Former Observer wrote: »

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

It does get me a lot of stick.

I love food and I really really love dips. I have a monthly house party where I put on food and drink for all my mates. There tends to be a minimum of 10 to 15 distinct types of dip at it. Sometimes obscenely more. It tends to look like a rainbow vomited onto the table.

Dips to me are like make up for a transvestite. I just go all kinds of religious about them.

Vegan and vegetarian meals kill more animals than you think

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