Vegan and vegetarian meals kill more animals than you think

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

Its often a cultural thing.

conor2469

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

yeah people don't realise how hypocritical they are sometimes, giving out about hunters while they sit there munching chicken nuggets. :pac:

Although I suppose a rabbit looks cuter than a vacuum sealed packet of lamb!

ILoveYourVibes

conor2469 wrote: »

yeah people don't realise how hypocritical they are sometimes, giving out about hunters while they sit there munching chicken nuggets. :pac:

Although I suppose a rabbit looks cuter than a vacuum sealed packet of lamb!

IT REALLY REALLY DOES LOOK!



Look at the softness of his fur ...look at the pawsiness of his feet! So pawsy! The cutsiness of his face! How could i not swoon over him!?? :P:P

I AM ONLY HUMAN!

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one

But actually wild rabbit is somewhat less cute than the pet shop version.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one

But actually wild rabbit is somewhat less cute than the pet shop version.

So i hear!

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

Guilt is a funny one. I have a captured wild rabbit that I have been feeding and tickling under the chin for some time now which I plan to off gut and eat probably this weekend or next. And some people I know tell me I should feel guilty about this somehow.

Yet they are off buying their vacuum packed Lamb Steaks from New Zealand.

I can not figure where the guilt is meant to come from here.

Are you just assuming they’re buying this lamb?

dodderangler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Helps to focus more on the knife than the eyes when you are offing one.

What do you mean? Why would you use a knife to kill it? Grab it’s back legs and give the neck a quick yank. Does the job every time.
Or you could grab it legs and hold it upside down and basically chop the neck with your hand. Plenty of ways to do it.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are you just assuming they’re buying this lamb?

No. Cooking with and for friends is a big thing for me. Where some people have religion and some people have alcohol and some people have TV - food has always been my main social lubricant. Especially dips. I am a complete and utter manic fiend for dips.

So I am quite intimate with the feeding habits of my friends and social circles. More so than is normal I think.

dodderangler wrote: »

What do you mean? Why would you use a knife to kill it? Grab it’s back legs and give the neck a quick yank. Does the job every time.

I meant it more figuratively than literally. Actually I have a kinda neck vice thing to slot them in and then do a nice downward yank thing as you describe. The only thing I have ever personally killed with a knife is fish I think.

EDIT: Actually no that's a lie. I did lop the head off a chicken once. Actually "lop" was quite onomatopoeic for the experience as I recall.

ILoveYourVibes

Thread just took a dark turn.

Former Observer

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

Former Observer

Former Observer wrote: »

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

Yea that tends to be one of the reasons I enjoying offing bunny rabbits. Wild Rabbit tends to - or at least I assume they did - lived a somewhat free-er and happier life than anything that produced chicken nuggets. And the Christmas goose we eat in my house actually grew up as part of our family before I ship it to my friendly butcher.

Or at least I assume so. Who knows the relative level of well being a rabbit constantly in terror of it's life from foxes actually underwent! Perhaps it is utterly miserable as an existence! But I think we tend to assume that "wild, free and natural" is happier than living in a box.

The funny thing is our narratives on animal freedom tend not to map onto reality. There is a _lovely_ german guy who runs an animal sanctuary for mostly birds near Sligo. But other animals too. And people often ask him are his captive birds not miserable and do they not want to fly free. But in fact when he sets them loose for their daily freedom the first think they want to do is go sit on a tree branch near by. Actually flying is the last thing they actually want to do. They actually want to naturally conserve as much energy as they can for as long as they can.

We just imagine it is because the thought of flying free appeals to _us_.

So I dunno! But I still off wild rabbit over farmed meat under the story I tell myself that the meat was happier. I wonder how much we really know though.

ILoveYourVibes

Former Observer wrote: »

Cool post fake vegetarian. Come back to me when a plant based diet results in concentration camps full of chickens and pigs the length and breadth of the country.

I am sure you mean well. But You have zero idea of what went on in concentration camps. They were no where near as humane as farms. If only.

ILoveYourVibes

You know it is possible to have a debate while being nice to each other.

Former Observer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But I still off wild rabbit over farmed meat under the story I tell myself that the meat was happier. I wonder how much we really know though.

I appreciate your outlook. As long as people exercise a little care, thought and compassion about their actions I feel we can find common ground.

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant. This is the same crowd who think the answer to every moral dilemma regarding the rearing of pigs is "bacon sammichs though". Total bottom feeders.

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

ILoveYourVibes

Former Observer wrote: »

I appreciate your outlook. As long as people exercise a little care, thought and compassion about their actions I feel we can find common ground.

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant. This is the same crowd who think the answer to every moral dilemma regarding the rearing of pigs is "bacon sammichs though". Total bottom feeders.

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

How is it you are able to hate people so easily? Is that not dangerous?

Same for meat eaters hunters etc. Do they hate vegans ? Or animal rights activists?

OEP

conor2469 wrote: »

Here are some rough figures I grabbed off google, these are rough estimates and I'm crap at maths but it gives some idea


Say a cow eats 11 kilos per day
they are slaughtered at 12-14 months.
They are in 25% of the year = 91 days

91x11 = 1001kg of feed over winter per head.
Each cow produces 195 kg of retail cuts (Google said so, feel free to correct)

So 1001kg of harvested plants eventually converts into 195 kg of retail cuts of meat
5kg of harvested plants made 1 kg of meat.

I still cant see how an Irish steak is less harmful to the environment and wildlife than the equivalent calories in plants is.

To put it in perspective (Yes more google figures, but use them as a rough estimate)
Say A human eats 2.25 kilo a day
2.25 x365 = 821 kg per year

Fair play - I'm going to give in here!

Former Observer

I'd argue that historically the factory farming of animals is worse than what happened at Auschwitz, fake vegetarian. And that is something that low IQ breakfast roll guzzlers should have to reckon with.

But we are going off topic a little.

emaherx

conor2469 wrote: »

Here are some rough figures I grabbed off google, these are rough estimates and I'm crap at maths but it gives some idea


Say a cow eats 11 kilos per day
they are slaughtered at 12-14 months.
They are in 25% of the year = 91 days

91x11 = 1001kg of feed over winter per head.
Each cow produces 195 kg of retail cuts (Google said so, feel free to correct)

So 1001kg of harvested plants eventually converts into 195 kg of retail cuts of meat
5kg of harvested plants made 1 kg of meat.

I still cant see how an Irish steak is less harmful to the environment and wildlife than the equivalent calories in plants is.

To put it in perspective (Yes more google figures, but use them as a rough estimate)
Say A human eats 2.25 kilo a day
2.25 x365 = 821 kg per year






Not necessarily, the grass is mown and made into bales, surely this would be regarded as harvesting? Similar to how grains are harvested.

Except grass lands require much less tilling of soils which is the most destructive part of growing crops. Also no blanket spraying of insecticide nessacery at all which is what kills the most sentient creatures in growing crops.

Former Observer

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

How is it you are able to hate people so easily? Is that not dangerous

People who answer complex moral questions about animal welfare with pithy bacons sammich jokes are deserving of derision. I don't hate them. I look down on them. Different thing.

Former Observer

Former Observer wrote: »

I'd argue however that there is no need to wax philosophical about the relative happiness of pigs being factory farmed in this country though. Anybody who thinks they're approximately happy, or happy enough, is being deliberately ignorant.

You are probably 100% right. I really believe you are. But at the same time I do find that belief is one that does get challenged if you let it.

Like I said the concept of flight - and how free and liberating we tell ourselves flight must be - is a great example of this. Ask most people what super power they want and flight gets selected really often.

So we imagine that a bird caged must be miserable. But the moment we let them off their perch and out of a cage the first thing they do is find a branch to sit on.

So while I believe in myself free animals must be infinitely happier than caged ones - I see something like that in that place in Sligo and my belief and faith in that narrative just gets - challenged.

I strongly recommend everyone go to that sanctuary. The place is lovely the the german couple who run it even more so. And they do not get near enough footfall to cover the expenses of looking after the animals the way they do. It is called "Eagles Flying" and I could not wax lyrical enough about it without literally becoming a shill.

Former Observer wrote: »

My biggest concern with your post to be honest is when you say you love cooking and then go on to say especially dips.

It does get me a lot of stick.

I love food and I really really love dips. I have a monthly house party where I put on food and drink for all my mates. There tends to be a minimum of 10 to 15 distinct types of dip at it. Sometimes obscenely more. It tends to look like a rainbow vomited onto the table.

Dips to me are like make up for a transvestite. I just go all kinds of religious about them.

Deebles McBeebles

Former Observer wrote: »

I'd argue that historically the factory farming of animals is worse than what happened at Auschwitz, fake vegetarian. And that is something that low IQ breakfast roll guzzlers should have to reckon with.

But we are going off topic a little.

I have to ask, why do you think the poster is a fake vegetarian?

Deebles McBeebles

Deleted User wrote: »

I love food and I really really love dips. I have a monthly house party where I put on food and drink for all my mates. There tends to be a minimum of 10 to 15 distinct types of dip at it. Sometimes obscenely more. It tends to look like a rainbow vomited onto the table.

I wouldn't partake in the rabbit but any chance of an invite?

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

It tends to look like a rainbow vomited onto the table.

I love rainbow vomit its my fav!

conor2469

emaherx wrote: »

Except grass lands require much less tilling of soils which is the most destructive part of growing crops. Also no blanket spraying of insecticide nessacery at all which is what kills the most sentient creatures in growing crops.

A fair point. I suppose then the question is, how less harmful is the fertilising/harvesting of grass compared to harvesting a food crop?
Also, over the course of a beef cows life, of all the dry food it consumes, what percentage is grass based and what percentage is grain based.
Raising livestock also requires large quantities of water, and results in large amounts of pollution (run off etc), this would also have a negative affect on the environment and wildlife.

I'm still struggling to see how 1 kg of Irish beef was less harmful to produce than the equivalent in plant based food.

mathie

For every opinion you'll find and opposite opinion with plenty of "evidence".

Except for the opinion that Game of Thrones ended well



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/25/veganism-intensively-farmed-meat-dairy-soya-maize

If you want to save the world, veganism isn’t the answer

"So there’s a huge responsibility here: unless you’re sourcing your vegan products specifically from organic, “no-dig” systems, you are actively participating in the destruction of soil biota, promoting a system that deprives other species, including small mammals, birds and reptiles, of the conditions for life, and significantly contributing to climate change."

"There’s no question we should all be eating far less meat, and calls for an end to high-carbon, polluting, unethical, intensive forms of grain-fed meat production are commendable. But if your concerns as a vegan are the environment, animal welfare and your own health, then it’s no longer possible to pretend that these are all met simply by giving up meat and dairy. Counterintuitive as it may seem, adding the occasional organic, pasture-fed steak to your diet could be the right way to square the circle."

---

OR

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https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html

"Eating a vegan diet could be the “single biggest way” to reduce your environmental impact on earth, a new study suggests

Researchers at the University of Oxford found that cutting meat and dairy products from your diet could reduce an individual's carbon footprint from food by up to 73 per cent.

Meanwhile, if everyone stopped eating these foods, they found that global farmland use could be reduced by 75 per cent, an area equivalent to the size of the US, China, Australia and the EU combined.

emaherx

conor2469 wrote: »

A fair point. I suppose then the question is, how less harmful is the fertilising/harvesting of grass compared to harvesting a food crop?
Also, over the course of a beef cows life, of all the dry food it consumes, what percentage is grass based and what percentage is grain based.
Raising livestock also requires large quantities of water, and results in large amounts of pollution (run off etc), this would also have a negative affect on the environment and wildlife.

I'm still struggling to see how 1 kg of Irish beef was less harmful to produce than 1kg of plant based food.

On most Irish beef farms the percentage of supplemental feeds is tiny often only used as a sort of treat to make animals more compliant for rounding up.

More natural fertilizer is used on beef farms for obvious reasons. Much more chemicals spread on crops from fertilizer, herbicide and insecticide.

The water argument is often blown out of proportion with many of statistics online including the rain water which waters the fields for the grass to grow. Also a large percentage of farms use untreated natural sources of water such as on farm wells as commercial water needs to be paid for.

More of our water is polluted by human sewage, only difference is farmers get heavy fines for breaches and count council's/ Irish water can dump any amount of untreated crap into our water system.

bilbot79

Terrorist vegetables at it again!! Someone stop the killing

ILoveYourVibes

I have opened a can of worms with this thread and i regret it deeply now.

Former Observer

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have opened a can of worms with this thread and i regret it deeply now.

*Can of beans

OEP

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I have opened a can of worms with this thread and i regret it deeply now.

You started a meat vs vegetarian thread in After Hours, what did you expect!