Ebike Law

Son · 13-02-2020 12:45pm #1

Hi

Do pedelec bikes need to have a power limit on the batt/motor? I've read that 250w is the max we are allowed here or else it needs tax insurance.

RSA website does not mention any power limit only that throttle controlled bikes need tax/ins etc, is this accurate? Thanks.

What is the law on eBikes, pedelecs or battery powered
scooters? Regardless of the type of bike, its speed or whether it requires a push
start, the rules are as follows:
• If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone (i.e. it can continue
without you pedalling or scooting it) then it is considered to be a ‘mechanically
propelled vehicle’ (MPV).
• Under road traffic law if an MPV is used in a public place it is subject to all of the
regulatory controls that apply to other vehicles i.e. it must be roadworthy,
registered, taxed and insured.
• The driver of the vehicle must hold the appropriate driving licence and is obliged to
wear a crash helmet.

cdaly_ · 13-02-2020 12:54pm

Pedelec:

250W max motor power
Max speed under assistance 25kph
Only assists while pedalling

MPV:

Anything else

John Hutton · 13-02-2020 1:05pm

250w max CONSTANT power, ie it can exceed it for short periods of time but has to be rated at a Max of 250 constant

1bryan · 13-02-2020 2:34pm

would be great if the cops started enforcing that law.

as an aside, I was cycling to work yesterday morning. Very sketchy conditions with even the gritted parts of the city, dubious at times. I was stopped at the lights on Pearse st, at the junction of westmoreland st, at around 7am. Just as the lights were changing a lad on an illegal e-bike absolutely flew by me.

Now, whatever about the illegalities of his steed, it was bloody foolish to be hitting those kinds of speeds on, what looked to be regular mountain bike wheels, given the conditions.

I'm noticing it more and more - just like the Dublin bikes, the average e-bike user is generally a very inexperienced 'cyclist'. Real cyclists tend to have more savvy, on general. All anecdotal, of course.

Chips Lovell · 13-02-2020 3:04pm

1bryan wrote: »

would be great if the cops started enforcing that law.

AFAIK, there are two cases in front of the courts at the moment which could be seen as test cases. If these prosecutions are successful, you may expect to see more.

However, the real threat for people riding illegal e-bikes and scooters is less enforcement (since enforcement of any road traffic offence is still a relative rarity) and more liability. If you're involved in an accident and it transpires you were driving an illegal vehicle with no tax and insurance, you could could be found partly or wholly liable.

Ray Palmer · 13-02-2020 3:46pm

There is a child on my route that uses a dodgy ebike conversion and I can't understand the parents allow it. No lights, throttle control and goes over 35 mph. There is no way he is even 16 and it is in heaven city traffic.

mjsc1970 · 13-02-2020 3:55pm

1bryan wrote: »

would be great if the cops started enforcing that law.

as an aside, I was cycling to work yesterday morning. Very sketchy conditions with even the gritted parts of the city, dubious at times. I was stopped at the lights on Pearse st, at the junction of westmoreland st, at around 7am. Just as the lights were changing a lad on an illegal e-bike absolutely flew by me.

Now, whatever about the illegalities of his steed, it was bloody foolish to be hitting those kinds of speeds on, what looked to be regular mountain bike wheels, given the conditions.

I'm noticing it more and more - just like the Dublin bikes, the average e-bike user is generally a very inexperienced 'cyclist'. Real cyclists tend to have more savvy, on general. All anecdotal, of course.

Tailed one thru Dublin city last night, gent in his latter years on full assyst throttle. It wasn't that that was off putting, rather the huge flashing WHITE light at the rear ye would see from outer space.

Tenzor07 · 13-02-2020 3:58pm

Saw one of these being linked in a different forum here, a 750w bolt on motor: LINK which has 160nm torque. And probably no speed restrictions on it either..

Esel · 13-02-2020 4:02pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is a child on my route that uses a dodgy ebike conversion and I can't understand the parents allow it. No lights, throttle control and goes over 35 mph. There is no way he is even 16 and it is in heaven city traffic.

Worth reporting to the cops (for the child's own safety), IMO.

Duckjob · 13-02-2020 4:04pm

1bryan wrote: »

the average e-bike user is generally a very inexperienced 'cyclist'. Real cyclists tend to have more savvy, on general. All anecdotal, of course.

Son · 13-02-2020 5:15pm

Cool thanks, I couldn't find the official info that says max 250w motor, any links?

Ray Palmer · 13-02-2020 6:14pm

Esel wrote: »

Worth reporting to the cops (for the child's own safety), IMO.

I can see them now waiting on the road to see the kid so they can stop him. Seriously what are they going to do?

Esel · 13-02-2020 6:21pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I can see them now waiting on the road to see the kid so they can stop him. Seriously what are they going to do?

What you said - stop him. Then seize the 'bike'.

ED E · 13-02-2020 6:24pm

mjsc1970 wrote: »

Tailed one thru Dublin city last night, gent in his latter years on full assyst throttle. It wasn't that that was off putting, rather the huge flashing WHITE light at the rear ye would see from outer space.

The Dutch have a huge problem with this. OAPs on Ebikes getting in fatal smashes.

Figures released this week show that more people are being killed in the Netherlands while riding an electric bike than a moped, and nearly 90% were aged 60 or above. The death toll has prompted Dutch police to call for those who start riding bikes fitted with a motor to take a safety course.

I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed.

ReReg Numpty · 13-02-2020 6:56pm

This is the problem with scooters and e-bikes. The power assist facilitates a sort of disconnect from the environment that normal cyclists don't experience. This is not to their advantage.

Why can't they ride bikes like the rest of us? They are the 'uncanny valley' of road users...

Duckjob · 13-02-2020 8:03pm

ED E wrote: »

The Dutch have a huge problem with this. OAPs on Ebikes getting in fatal smashes.

I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed.

I don't know of any commercially available eBike that would throttle up to 40kph, only home builds with a lot more power than 250w available might be able to do it. Any commercial ebikes I know of with a throttle would have cut off at max 15-20kph

Kaisr Sose · 13-02-2020 8:56pm

Duckjob wrote: »

I don't know of any commercially available eBike that would throttle up to 40kph, only home builds with a lot more power than 250w available might be able to do it. Any commercial ebikes I know of with a throttle would have cut off at max 15-20kph

Not if they are modified (chipped) to go faster. Agree the majority of the fast ones are home builds or ebay type purchases. Your average Garda would not know the difference.

ED E · 13-02-2020 9:13pm

Duckjob wrote: »

I don't know of any commercially available eBike that would throttle up to 40kph, only home builds with a lot more power than 250w available might be able to do it. Any commercial ebikes I know of with a throttle would have cut off at max 15-20kph

You can buy one tomorrow in Dublin.

https://www.dlbcycles.ie/electric-bikes

All it takes is a firmware update to set whatever speed limit you want, or none at all.

Eamonnator · 13-02-2020 9:16pm

ED E wrote: »

The Dutch have a huge problem with this. OAPs on Ebikes getting in fatal smashes.

I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed.

Thanks for the tip, I'll stay away from Holland.

Duckjob · 13-02-2020 9:26pm

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Not if they are modified (chipped) to go faster. Agree the majority of the fast ones are home builds or ebay type purchases. Your average Garda would not know the difference.

ED E wrote: »

You can buy one tomorrow in Dublin.

https://www.dlbcycles.ie/electric-bikes

All it takes is a firmware update to set whatever speed limit you want, or none at all.

I was talking specially about throttle only speed not pedal assisted speed. Throttle only was what your post I answered was taking about.

Chipping just removes or changes the theoretical upper speed limit, but you're still never going to be able to get anywhere near 40kph from 250 watts on a heavy unaerodynamic bike (which is nearly all ebikes)

Hurrache · 13-02-2020 9:32pm

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Why can't they ride bikes like the rest of us? They are the 'uncanny valley' of road users...

I can see why in fairness, less exertion, longer distances, pretty much normal clothes and no need for a shower when arriving at the office.

I've inadvertently got into commuter races with a couple, some i can keep pace with, others just blast away like a motorbike, can be a dodgy enough thing to do particularly when on confined routes like the canals.

cdaly_ · 14-02-2020 12:02pm

ED E wrote: »

You can buy one tomorrow in Dublin.

https://www.dlbcycles.ie/electric-bikes

All it takes is a firmware update to set whatever speed limit you want, or none at all.

This conversion kit looks interesting. Motor looks like a big plastic 'chainring' on the left, battery goes on like a bidon. It depends on the bottom bracket for its counter torque so that could get interesting as it tightens under load. I wonder could it strip the BB threads?

Commentary in german but a good illustration of fitting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIF_FscUDkQ

Son · 14-02-2020 1:25pm

So where might I find the official definition of this law, any links?

magicbastarder · 14-02-2020 3:50pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European_Union_definition

Gerry · 14-02-2020 6:45pm

I encounter e bikes every day.. even the factory bikes seem to almost all be chipped. Only very rarely do you see one limited to 25kmh.

beauf · 14-02-2020 6:55pm

[quote="ED ...I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed....[/quote]

How is this different to driving?

Kaisr Sose · 14-02-2020 7:48pm

beauf wrote: »

How is this different to driving?

Maybe it does not differ a lot. When you are not paying sufficient attention things can happen that you can't react to. That said, one noticeable difference would be balance in the event of something happening or having to react quickly at speed on 2 wheels, something you don't have to worry about on 4 wheels.

beauf · 14-02-2020 8:40pm

ED E wrote: »

The Dutch have a huge problem with this. OAPs on Ebikes getting in fatal smashes.

I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists

Speed being the cause is perhaps over simplistic, its more nuanced. Its getting people back on bikes who probably haven't been on a bike in years. They might have died tripping over a kerb, or a passenger in a car crash. Older people have worse outcomes than young people in accidents, because they are less robust. However lots have all moved to ebikes. They have become more active as a result.

I could be wrong but they seem less focused on cycling at speed than we are. Perhaps because its most seen as an ordinary activity not a sporting one, due to the culture, or infrastructure.

Hurrache · 14-02-2020 9:59pm

Got absolutely burned by a cargo bike this evening. Felt like an eejit as I usually take my place in the bike queue but as this was a tight turn at the traffic lights I stopped in his outside so I'd get around the turn first once the lights went green. He's probably still laughing.

AndrewJRenko · 20-02-2020 5:43pm

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

This is the problem with scooters and e-bikes. The power assist facilitates a sort of disconnect from the environment that normal cyclists don't experience. This is not to their advantage.

Why can't they ride bikes like the rest of us? They are the 'uncanny valley' of road users...

eBikes are a huge benefit for older people, people with disabilities who would have limited power and stamina, cargo bike riders, people carrying heavy loads.

In summary, they're great. Don't create an 'us and them' situation.

Utter Consternation · 20-02-2020 5:51pm

Gerry wrote: »

I encounter e bikes every day.. even the factory bikes seem to almost all be chipped. Only very rarely do you see one limited to 25kmh.

I cycle in Dublin everyday and have a regular ebike. I'd spot a chipped one a mile off and there doesn't seem to be that many about.

I see plenty regular commuters on ebikes plodding along at 25kph. The few
chipped bikes i've seen look like they're conversion kits applied to regular bikes.

jim o doom · 20-02-2020 5:57pm

The max speed with assistance of 25 kph is a bit of a head-scratcher. I've hit more than that on a regular race bike going down a not very steep hill on a decent race bike with no assistance.

ED E · 20-02-2020 6:15pm

jim o doom wrote: »

The max speed with assistance of 25 kph is a bit of a head-scratcher. I've hit more than that on a regular race bike going down a not very steep hill on a decent race bike with no assistance.

It made sense in 2008 when anything capable of 30 was a monster.

magicbastarder · 20-02-2020 6:32pm

jim o doom wrote: »

The max speed with assistance of 25 kph is a bit of a head-scratcher. I've hit more than that on a regular race bike going down a not very steep hill on a decent race bike with no assistance.

you'd hit that on an ebike too on a downhill though? not sure that the speed you can reach on a bicycle on a downhill has any bearing on how much assistance an e-bike should give.
the assistance is limited to 25km/h; the bike itself isn't. though it obviously will be harder to get to 30 then than a race bike would.

Gerry · 21-02-2020 1:40am

Utter Consternation wrote: »

I cycle in Dublin everyday and have a regular ebike. I'd spot a chipped one a mile off and there doesn't seem to be that many about.

I see plenty regular commuters on ebikes plodding along at 25kph. The few
chipped bikes i've seen look like they're conversion kits applied to regular bikes.

I'm just relating my experience. Most e bikes that I see are getting up to let's say 35kmh and with very little effort, despite having wider tyres, flat bars etc.i would say almost all of them.

magicbastarder · 21-02-2020 8:38am

I certainly wouldn't say most are doing that. They're much easier to spot than unchipped e-bikes though so could be selection bias.

jim o doom · 21-02-2020 10:17am

magicbastarder wrote: »

you'd hit that on an ebike too on a downhill though? not sure that the speed you can reach on a bicycle on a downhill has any bearing on how much assistance an e-bike should give.
the assistance is limited to 25km/h; the bike itself isn't. though it obviously will be harder to get to 30 then than a race bike would.

Aha, I misunderstood how the whole worked. So the assistance cuts off when you hit 25kph, I erroneously thought it would not be legal to travel over 25kph on one of these yokes, thanks.

beauf · 21-02-2020 12:11pm

I see the odd one going veryfast most are just staying at fast cyclist speeds.

It not like they enforce cars, so why enforce bicycles.

Utter Consternation · 21-02-2020 12:15pm

beauf wrote: »

I see the odd one going veryfast most are just staying at fast cyclist speeds.

It not like they enforce cars, so why enforce bicycles.

Hmmm. I beg to differ. I was cycling up the South Quays on Wednesday evening and had an eye on a motorcylist Garda driving slowly behind me. He ignored a UPS van stuck right in the cycle lane before the lights at O'Connell Bridge and then pulled over a pleb on a Dublin bike who ran a red light down by the Ha'penny bridge.

At least we know where their priorites are.

beauf · 21-02-2020 12:16pm

jim o doom wrote: »

Aha, I misunderstood how the whole worked. So the assistance cuts off when you hit 25kph, I erroneously thought it would not be legal to travel over 25kph on one of these yokes, thanks.

When I'm on my heavy MTB fully loaded (and I'm not light) with panniers. On a steep hill or even a decent gradient I can spin out in top gear (pedals go around so fast I can't pedal) I must be doing 30+ easily, fear of hitting anything makes me rein it in considerably.

Anyone decently fit on a decent light bike, will go as fast if not faster than a legal ebike. Same person on an eBike will maintain a decent speed.

beauf · 21-02-2020 12:21pm

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Hmmm. I beg to differ. I was cycling up the South Quays on Wednesday evening and had an eye on a motorcylist Garda driving slowly behind me. He ignored a UPS van stuck right in the cycle lane before the lights at O'Connell Bridge and then pulled over a pleb on a Dublin bike who ran a red light down by the Ha'penny bridge.

At least we know where their priorites are.

Not that I think parking in bike lanes should be ignored, or that its doesn't case a safety issue for cyclists, it does. But running a RL while not it self dangerous, doing where there's a high volume of pedestrians, and a pinch point is a bit dumb. Also lack of awareness if he never checked behind.

Utter Consternation · 21-02-2020 12:26pm

beauf wrote: »

Not that I think parking in bike lanes should be ignored, or that its doesn't case a safety issue for cyclists, it does. But running a RL while not it self dangerous, doing where there's a high volume of pedestrians, and a pinch point is a bit dumb. Also lack of awareness if he never checked behind.

A total dumbass, it was as plain as day that the garda was behind us. If there's one place you should be looking over your shoulder, it's down those fcuking Quays, because god knows what is coming behind you.

Now it did seem however that the Garda was intentionally trying to catch a cyclist out. He had ample opportunity to pass us by but tucked in behind our group of bedraggled cyclists.

beauf · 21-02-2020 12:31pm

Sounds like it was.

Kaisr Sose · 21-02-2020 12:55pm

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Now it did seem however that the Garda was intentionally trying to catch a cyclist out. He had ample opportunity to pass us by but tucked in behind our group of bedraggled cyclists.

Good for the Garda. Its only though being thought a lesson arising from your behaviour that you have any chance of a change in the behaviour of that cyclist. More garda needed like them, for all red light running, of which cyclists do not comprise the majority/largest sample, and my absolute pet hate for cyclists, no lights.

As for the UPS vehicle, unfortunately the concession to park short term on a double yellow for loading/unloading also trickles down to being permitted to block a cycle lane to deliver/collect (*unless they were not parked up, in which case the Garda should have pulled them too)

Chips Lovell · 21-02-2020 2:17pm

Utter Consternation wrote: »

He ignored a UPS van stuck right in the cycle lane before the lights at O'Connell Bridge...

If it's delivering or collecting something, it can park there for up to 30 minutes.

Utter Consternation · 21-02-2020 3:05pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

If it's delivering or collecting something, it can park there for up to 30 minutes.

Are you sh1tting me?? Wow. That was just after 5pm, right at the peak of evening rush hour.

AndrewJRenko · 21-02-2020 3:16pm

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Are you sh1tting me?? Wow. That was just after 5pm, right at the peak of evening rush hour.

It depends.

A driver can stop on double-yellows to load or unload for up to 30 minutes. They can't stop on a clearway or a mandatory cycle lane.

Utter Consternation · 21-02-2020 3:25pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It depends.

A driver can stop on double-yellows to load or unload for up to 30 minutes. They can't stop on a clearway or a mandatory cycle lane.

Is it a mandatory cycle lane? Pardon the divergence from the OP. I was on an electric bike at this stage though.

Chips Lovell · 21-02-2020 3:26pm

Solid white line = mandatory
Dashed white line = non-mandatory.

I believe the lane on the south keys approach O'Connell Bridge is dashed.

Hurrache · 21-02-2020 6:49pm

Guys in an unmarked garda car pulled over a lady who looked like she cycled through the pedestrians lights at the Spire infront of them this evening. Stupidly busy place to do so.

ReReg Numpty · 21-02-2020 7:43pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

eBikes are a huge benefit for older people, people with disabilities who would have limited power and stamina, cargo bike riders, people carrying heavy loads.

In summary, they're great. Don't create an 'us and them' situation.

What a finely tuned moral compass you have. You'll have no problem at the pearly gates, that's for sure.

They have nothing to do with cycling. This is the cycling forum, about cycling culture, right?

Or is it just a platform for virtue signalling?

Ebike Law

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