Ebike Law

Corca Baiscinn

beauf wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists

Speed being the cause is perhaps over simplistic, its more nuanced. Its getting people back on bikes who probably haven't been on a bike in years. They might have died tripping over a kerb, or a passenger in a car crash. Older people have worse outcomes than young people in accidents, because they are less robust. However lots have all moved to ebikes. They have become more active as a result.

I could be wrong but they seem less focused on cycling at speed than we are. Perhaps because its most seen as an ordinary activity not a sporting one, due to the culture, or infrastructure.

Think you're right that the Dutch are less focused on cycling at speed, hence them toddling along to work in ordinary clothes and workplace showering not being common afaik. But speed can still be a factor in the numbers of older people involved in ebike fatalities. As you say older people have far worse outcomes especially from falls and falls from ebikes are common straight after mounting. With an ordinary bike you can start slowly and gradually build up speed but the e-bike can "take off" instantly. As you pointed out, older people are more frail so whatever about a 60 year old an 80 year old can easily lose control, fall, break a hip, and not make a good recovery.
I doubt tho' that since its NL we're discussing, it's people who haven't been on a bike for years. More likely they swapped their trusty pushbike for an ebike but find it hard to control both speed and weight. All just my opinion though

Kaisr Sose

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Mandatory, continuous white line - cars not allowed to enter, dashed line, they may.

Causes confusion because of the years of legal lack of clarity in rules of the road as to whether cycle lanes were or weren't mandatory for cyclists to use.

I am just joking... there is no such thing in legal limbo land.

ReReg Numpty

Let's be clear about something - e-bikes are little more than wheelchairs clumsily disguised as bicycles. Why a person would choose to use one instead of a bicycle is baffling.

Or why would they choose one instead of a vespa/ scooter....something with a bit of dignity, at least? Vespas are actually cheaper in most cases.

Ireland is a small country with small cities and small towns... it's perfect for cycling. Most people live within 15/ 20 km of their work. No reason for these not to cycle.

My Grandad in his 80s rode a bike all over the place. So did his peers.

Corca Baiscinn

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I am just joking... there is no such thing in legal limbo land.

Have you see the photo of the cycle lane on Skehard Road in Cork with the lamp-post bang in the middle! If not, see tweet from Cork Cycling Campaign. They still get berated for not using it!

Stepping Stone

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Have you see the photo of the cycle lane on Skehard Road in Cork with the lamp-post bang in the middle! If not, see tweet from Cork Cycling Campaign. They still get berated for not using it!

Since it’s primary function seems to be to provide parking for the masses, I’m not surprised! Cork is a wonderful city to get around. Remember that cycle land on the South Douglas Road that ended at a wall at one point? As a driver you had the option of taking up the cycle lane or cross to the other lane. Of all the places where a bloody cycle lane made it extremely dangerous for cyclists... I have long given up on cycling infrastructure in Cork. Taking the lane is the only way to go and I say that as a driver who just wants to not kill or maim anyone.

Sorry, off topic rant.

On topic, hired an ebike on holiday a few years ago. Wasn’t my first choice but everything else was gone (not Europe). My god, you go from zero to feeling like you’re speeding in the blink of an eye. It had a top speed of 30km/h. It took some getting used to. I can see the attraction but also why they wouldn’t be great in the hands of inexperienced cyclists. Personally, I initially disliked it but once you got used to carefully watching your speed, it was grand. Different feel to a normal bike, so oddly took more concentration for a while.

RobbieMD

beauf wrote: »

Nope they damn themselves by being selective for no good reason.

Last time I checked enforcement was something like 2 cycling fines per day for the whole country. Of course you cant trust the stats or the reporting of them either. Maybe they do a lot more, or a lot less.

I'm glad they clarified their position on the NCT issues anyway.

If AGS prosecuted every single offence they observed/ was reported to them, they would be overwhelmed and unable to prosecute the more serious offences you alluded to when you said

“ She must have been too busy dodging the drug dealers and junkies. Priorities eh...“

I had a look at the courts website. I’ll assume we can trust it. The last stats I could find for drug offences was in 2017 and 14,692 drug offenders were prosecuted. To suggest AGS don’t prosecute them is misleading.

Heading home earlier into a head wind up hill in the rain and was passed by a young lad I see semi-regularly on his apollo slant with conversion kit . Normally I'd not have been bothered but did boil my piss a little this evening.

Last time I'd seen him I probably didn't pay much heed but was hard to miss the fact it had a throttle this evening due to the lack of peddling up hill. Still wasn't doing crazy speed though I'd say it was doing the 25kmph. The least the little so and so could have done was give me a tow :mad:

tuxy

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Let's be clear about something - e-bikes are little more than wheelchairs clumsily disguised as bicycles. Why a person would choose to use one instead of a bicycle is baffling.

Or why would they choose one instead of a vespa/ scooter....something with a bit of dignity, at least? Vespas are actually cheaper in most cases.

Ireland is a small country with small cities and small towns... it's perfect for cycling. Most people live within 15/ 20 km of their work. No reason for these not to cycle.

My Grandad in his 80s rode a bike all over the place. So did his peers.

But what if these people who you recommend to cycle end up with a BMI of about 25? 1 or 2 hours of exercise a day can have drastic consequences.

beauf

RobbieMD wrote: »

If AGS prosecuted every single offence they observed/ was reported to them, they would be overwhelmed and unable to prosecute the more serious offences you alluded to when you said

“ She must have been too busy dodging the drug dealers and junkies. Priorities eh...“

I had a look at the courts website. I’ll assume we can trust it. The last stats I could find for drug offences was in 2017 and 14,692 drug offenders were prosecuted. To suggest AGS don’t prosecute them is misleading.

Yeah no one's saying they NEVER target drug offenses that's a strawman, and poor attempt at derailing the thread. Try harder.

Considering there's such a low enforcement of cycling offences generally. If it's was normal to have zero tolerance then it wouldn't be odd. But we don't so it's odd to randomly target a couple of cyclists. Low hanging fruit probably.

It's like the eScooters a tiny handful were pulled over, otherwise they are completely ignored.

ED E

Also you can't compare a criminal conviction with a long legal process to something that is dealt with by way of an FCPN that will very very rarely end up in court (usually when the person is about to be disqualified).

beauf

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Let's be clear about something - e-bikes are little more than wheelchairs clumsily disguised as bicycles. Why a person would choose to use one instead of a bicycle is baffling. ...

I think if you don't know why someone uses a wheelchair instead of bicycle there's no explaining it.

Why use a bicycle anyway. Isn't that just a way of avoiding walking or running to work.

"Eddie Izzard has completed 27 marathons in as many days for Sport Relief."

beauf

ED E wrote: »

Also you can't compare a criminal conviction with a long legal process to something that is dealt with by way of an FCPN that will very very rarely end up in court (usually when the person is about to be disqualified).

Has there been any ebikes with throttles taken to court etc., anyone know?

ED E

beauf wrote: »

Has there been any ebikes with throttles taken to court etc., anyone know?

Only scooters that I know of.

RobbieMD

beauf wrote: »

Yeah no one's saying they NEVER target drug offenses that's a strawman, and poor attempt at derailing the thread. Try harder.

Considering there's such a low enforcement of cycling offences generally. If it's was normal to have zero tolerance then it wouldn't be odd. But we don't so it's odd to randomly target a couple of cyclists. Low hanging fruit probably.

It's like the eScooters a tiny handful were pulled over, otherwise they are completely ignored.

The most commonly used legislation in Ireland is the Road Traffic Act 1961 and it’s various amendments and SIs. I pointed out that you had suggested they should have prioritised drug dealers and junkies. I’m not going down the straw man route, I was commenting on what you’ve posted.

It would seem that they do target them with nearly 15,000 prosecutions. It would also seem that they do target motorists with over 200,000 FCPNs issued in the same year with another 143,000 defendants before the courts for motoring offences. If you have any experience of our courts, you’d know that motoring offences are the most commonly prosecuted ones.

In my book low hanging fruit would be prosecuting jay walkers, or drivers who left their licence at home or the like. We all know it’s an offence to go through a red light, and in her case all the worse at such a busy spot as the spire. I don’t want to derail the thread so I’ll leave it at that.

ReReg Numpty

tuxy wrote: »

But what if these people who you recommend to cycle end up with a BMI of about 25? 1 or 2 hours of exercise a day can have drastic consequences.

Enough of that witchcraft talk!

tuxy

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Enough of that witchcraft talk!

I miss my round belly

Brian?

ED E wrote: »

The Dutch have a huge problem with this. OAPs on Ebikes getting in fatal smashes.




I'd argue that if I'm cruising at 40kph under human power I'm wide awake. If the same just involves pushing a button I could be half comatosed.

There are different classes of ebikes here in the Netherlands. Some are classified the same as electric scooters and require a blue reg plate, but no driving licence. Some need the same require the same yellow reg plate as petrol mopeds. Most need nothing. It all depends on he power output.

The problem I see with the standard, 250w and under, ebikes is that the riders assume they are faster than all other bikes and take way more risks at lights. I’ve had a good few near misses with OAPs on ebikes because they don’t realise I’m travelling as quick or quicker they they are.

Brian?

Duckjob wrote: »

I don't know of any commercially available eBike that would throttle up to 40kph, only home builds with a lot more power than 250w available might be able to do it. Any commercial ebikes I know of with a throttle would have cut off at max 15-20kph

There’s a guy at work who has a fat ebike, it has the same reg plate as a 50cc moped. He’s passed me do at least 60kph. Mopeds can use the bike lanes here, but the limit is 30. They all ignore it, now there’s loads of ebikes doing the same.

Brian?

beauf wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/older-men-using-e-bikes-behind-rising-death-toll-among-dutch-cyclists

Speed being the cause is perhaps over simplistic, its more nuanced. Its getting people back on bikes who probably haven't been on a bike in years. They might have died tripping over a kerb, or a passenger in a car crash. Older people have worse outcomes than young people in accidents, because they are less robust. However lots have all moved to ebikes. They have become more active as a result.

I could be wrong but they seem less focused on cycling at speed than we are. Perhaps because its most seen as an ordinary activity not a sporting one, due to the culture, or infrastructure.

The bolder part: it might be doing that in Ireland, but not here. They never stop cycling. It’s the default way to go anywhere, you really should see the bike parks in the city centre.

You’re right on the 2nd part, road cycling as a hobby is still a minority sport. I see more mountain bikers than road cyclists. Even though there isn’t a mountain.

AndrewJRenko

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Let's be clear about something - e-bikes are little more than wheelchairs clumsily disguised as bicycles. Why a person would choose to use one instead of a bicycle is baffling.

As a mobility aid?
Because it allows them to do a commute distance that would otherwise be not feasible?
Because they don't have the stamina to cycle the required distance without the backup?
And if it is a wheelchair in disguise, so what? Do you have a problem with wheelchair users?

GreyEagle

So getting back to the OP, what is the legal limit for an eBike suitable for touring? If I needed insurance for an eBike is there anyone offering that in the Irish market.
I'm not getting any younger and while I still get my 5K/yr., the longer cycles are becoming more of a challenge, especially with panniers. So a little electric push would be welcome.
I tried a 400w rental bike recently. That's what I am told one would need for a Westport-Achill-Westport day trip. Plenty of zip but is it legal?

Kaisr Sose

beauf wrote: »

Has there been any ebikes with throttles taken to court etc., anyone know?

I would say a lot of Garda (regular and traffic) would not know a bike with a throttle form a pedal assist.

You would think they could use some form of internal comms system to update members on various things to be looking for, such as a picture of a bicycle that may be likely to have a throttle.

beauf

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

As a mobility aid?
Because it allows them to do a commute distance that would otherwise be not feasible?
Because they don't have the stamina to cycle the required distance without the backup?
And if it is a wheelchair in disguise, so what? Do you have a problem with wheelchair users?

Give up...

https://youtu.be/Vn29DvMITu4

Kaisr Sose

GreyEagle wrote: »

So getting back to the OP, what is the legal limit for an eBike suitable for touring? If I needed insurance for an eBike is there anyone offering that in the Irish market.
I'm not getting any younger and while I still get my 5K/yr., the longer cycles are becoming more of a challenge, especially with panniers. So a little electric push would be welcome.
I tried a 400w rental bike recently. That's what I am told one would need for a Westport-Achill-Westport day trip. Plenty of zip but is it legal?

I believe the information you need was already given. I don't see how you could need 400kw for that trip. Do you not need longer battery performance than speed for that tour?

The term legal or illegal is dependent on various requirements for that vehicle or driving the vehicle being or not being met.

tuxy

Westport-Achill-Westport

Many people do that kind of thing at a leisurely pace of 100watt or less human power.......
Not sure would it would be in KWH but it would be very low.

ReReg Numpty

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

As a mobility aid?
Because it allows them to do a commute distance that would otherwise be not feasible?
Because they don't have the stamina to cycle the required distance without the backup?
And if it is a wheelchair in disguise, so what? Do you have a problem with wheelchair users?

Ah, there you are again, swooping in to save the day


Tell me...do you get out on the bike much? Or is your interest more ideologically driven?

magicbastarder

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

This is the cycling forum, about cycling culture, right?

the cycling forum is about whatever cyclists who wish to contribute about cycling, want it to be about. thankfully no one person gets to dictate what the dictionary definition of 'cycling' is or should be.

rubadub

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

This is the problem with scooters and e-bikes. The power assist facilitates a sort of disconnect from the environment that normal cyclists don't experience. This is not to their advantage.

Why can't they ride bikes like the rest of us? They are the 'uncanny valley' of road users...

The "rest of us"? there are far more people using motorised vehicles than regular cycles. Do you really need explaining they they do not all ride regular bikes instead or cars/vans/motorbikes?

Are you really that ignorant? or do you think you look smart by feigning this ignorance or something? because if you think it make you appear smart it is backfiring big time.

A legal pedlec still requires some effort, it just reduced the power input needed. Do you also frown upon people using light bikes, or slick tyres pumped up hard to minimise the power input they need? "why can't they just use heavy bikes and relatively inefficient tires like the majority of cyclists I see commuting? that guy just oiled his chain, not fair. The lack of effort must create a disconnect..."

ReReg Numpty wrote: »

Or why would they choose one instead of a vespa/ scooter....something with a bit of dignity, at least? Vespas are actually cheaper in most cases.

I have had a ebike nearly five years. Cost me about 40euro in electricity in that time. How much would the vespa have cost in tax, fuel, insurance, servicing etc? I cannot use cyclelanes on a vespa so my commute could be longer. I see small mopeds regularly stuck in traffic on my commute.

I am SLOWER commuting on my ebike BTW, and that is comparing to a clapped out single speed hybrid with front suspension and heavy tyres and a rusty chain -only single speed as the gears are totally knackered. Not the lightweight efficient slick yokes I see other lads cheating on., have they no dignity at all...

ReReg Numpty

magicbastarder wrote: »

thankfully no one person gets to dictate what the dictionary definition of 'cycling' is or should be.

There is a definition - it's riding a mechanical bicycle unassisted. Its also about character. Something which seems to be lacking in some of the posts here.

magicbastarder

mod hat on - rightyho; as cycling is not about demonstrating 'character' (i can't believe i'm having to type this), any further posts arguing about the 'purity' - or lack thereof - of ebikes in this thread will be deleted without comment. ReReg Numpty - don't post in this thread again, thank you.