If the world goes completely vegan

Jjameson wrote: »

No we could not. The same with all crop production not just beef and dairy. And that would do the farmer, bio diversity and the soil no harm at all.
The processors, chemical fertilisers industry and government tax take wouldn’t be happy though.

Well the output of dairy is increasing yearly, so I don't see how this regenerative farming is going to get a look in, all politicians and most people care about is money and growth, which unfortunately means things like water quality and biodiversity are only going to get worse, because of this kind of farming.
Yay.

Gary kk wrote: »

Yeah but it's mostly new entrants that are drive increase. So its swapping one for the other. In fairness to the larger farmers they are probably doing better on water quality the have money to put into storage tanks.

The current model just seems completely unsustainable to me, and I can't see it changing unless we reduced our output considerably, which will never happen because profit is all that matters to those with all the power. We've lost so much biodiversity in the last 50 years, what will it be like in another 50 years?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The current model just seems completely unsustainable to me, and I can't see it changing unless we reduced our output considerably, which will never happen because profit is all that matters to those with all the power. We've lost so much biodiversity in the last 50 years, what will it be like in another 50 years?

There's a growing regenerative agriculture movment happening, its not being supported by the government or from europe (yet), but in terms of environment and biodiversity it is a much better system of farming.. Its as important to vegans as it is to omnivores.




Personally I think the notion of the whole world going vegan or the whole world being omnivores is silly. Humans are a diverse species where the majority will be mainstream and there will always be fringe groups doing other stuff, no way everyone is going the same way and I think it would be bad for the planet anyway, the planet thrives on diversity and that must include diversity of diet and farming.. Churning over mass monocultures of soy and other protien products to support 8bln people would in itself destroy climate and biodiversity because more and more fertilisers and pesticides would be used, resulting in more and more insects and mamals being poisoned to increase yields and protect crops - sort of thwarting the whole push to be vegan one would imagine.. but maybe killing animals in that fashion is more palatable than farming and killing them, who knows..



I'd still love someone to explain how this world of vegans might happen because the diversity of humans just won't agree to it.. taking that on board how would it happen, hypothetically that is..

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It will never happen, unless advanced societies go off it completely if and when replacement products taste the same and have a lesser carbon footprint.
I don't think any vegan thinks we'll ever have a world where people don't kill animals, but this thread was started by a non vegan.

Where is that post of yours from an hour ago

White Clover wrote: »

Where is that post of yours from an hour ago

Blabbing, ok. I did say earlier that people are horrified by puppy farms, when puppy farms look like holiday resorts compared to what factory farmed pigs are subjected to.
Where did I say all farmers treat their animals horribly?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Could we produce all the beef and dairy we currently do in Ireland using regenerative farming practices and no imported feed?

We actually don't import that much feed into the country for beef and dairy.

I'd say we could do it. It just means showing farmers how to get the optimum energy and nutrients from forage.
And it can be done regeneratively and improve the soil. It just means getting a better understanding of biology and elements in the soil and how that's taken up by the plant.

One part of regenerative farming I'm doing is adding biochar to manure and slurry and that makes the manure and slurry go a lot further and grow more biomass than without. It retains the soluble nutrients from the animal manure that otherwise would leach from the soil away from the plant root.
The added benefit is that it's sequestered carbon for hundreds of years and provides living space for bacteria and fungi in the soil and these sequester their own carbon around the biochar.

The more biochar is mixed with animal manure the more soil is fertilized for a longer duration and it displaces importing fertilizer into the country.

Actually that's a discussion we all should be having, whatever type of farming occurs in this country, tillage and livestock.

We should use more of what we already have here.

Say my name wrote: »

We actually don't import that much feed into the country for beef and dairy.

I'd say we could do it...

Thanks for your response. I suppose the way I look at Ireland now and farming is that pretty much the whole island is used for farming and I'd like to see a lot of land given back to nature and just let do its own thing. Obviously that would mean less beef and dairy being produced, and that doesn't fly with a lot of people. Your way of farming sounds great, but I still don't think the whole island should consist of beef and dairy fams, and all of our higher grounds seem to be either grazing land for sheep which stops anything from growing, or sitka spruce plantations. It really doesn't seem like a healthy ecosystem to me currently, and the reports tell us it isn't.

EastTyrone wrote: »

What do vegans think of the fact that drinking soya milk is destroying the rainforest?
And the fact that a large majority of vegetables eaten in the eu come from spain with its miles upon miles of plastic greenhouses destroying the local environment, taking up ground water and depleting natural groundwater sources?

This honestly intrigues me so much as I always hear of people saying vegans to save the environment however this is never mentioned.

Likewise would vegans ever eat insects or how does this compare to a vegans ideals?

First of all most of the soy grown is to feed farmed animals.
I don't think trading food in the European Union is going away any time soon, but I think you'll find pretty much all of the the vegetables grown in Spain and Holland that are imported here are eaten by non vegans.
And the insect thing, if we all had a vegan diet, we'd have to use far less land for farming our food thus we'd have far more insects and animals out there. It's about having the least impact on the earth, but we all still need to eat.

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Thanks for your response. I suppose the way I look at Ireland now and farming is that pretty much the whole island is used for farming and I'd like to see a lot of land given back to nature and just let do its own thing. Obviously that would mean less beef and dairy being produced, and that doesn't fly with a lot of people. Your way of farming sounds great, but I still don't think the whole island should consist of beef and dairy fams, and all of our higher grounds seem to be either grazing land for sheep which stops anything from growing, or sitka spruce plantations. It really doesn't seem like a healthy ecosystem to me currently, and the reports tell us it isn't.

And that sounds well but people need jobs, people need income.
It's a healthy ecosystem if it's done well.

Where I am more land is going to tillage. Ditches gone land tilled.
The tillage ground already there going to solar panels.

It's not all beef and dairy in this country.

EastTyrone wrote: »

Vegns still use this as a substitute for cows milk, which is why iI'm asking.
Like wise farmed insects have an incredible high level of protein in them and are being touted as the future in agriculture to use as a replacement for soy which will help to reduce our reliance on soy in animal feed, we can also eat insects which can be farmed in quite small areas and produce a large yield which is grown on food waste further to helping alleviate the demand for space.

They do use soy milk a substitute, more of an oat milk person myself, but if you look at the link below you'll see it has far less of an environmental impact than cows milk

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46654042

White Clover wrote: »

The hills were destocked before

What does that mean? There are initiatives in Scotland at the moment where they've fenced off areas from sheep, and native trees have flourished, which has led to an increase in wildlife.
Sheep love saplings so if you let them loose on hills nothing can grow there.

Say my name wrote: »

It's not all beef and dairy in this country.

Well given that 55% of our fruit and veg comes from my neck of the woods in North Dublin, a small area, it kinda looks like beef and dairy is all we produce elsewhere.

White Clover wrote: »

Good quality source for that?

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf

Just over 70 percent of the soybeans grown in the United States are used for animal feed

That's from the US Dept of Agriculture for e.g.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

What does that mean? There are initiatives in Scotland at the moment where they've fenced off areas from sheep, and native trees have flourished, which has led to an increase in wildlife.
Sheep love saplings so if you let them loose on hills nothing can grow there.

Do Gooders were advocating for what you are now. One or 2 dominant plants began smothering out much of our native flora. That wasn't the case when the sheep were there. That is why they had to put the sheep back up, to bring balance to the whole situation. Balance is very important!

The Scottish could learn alot from us, you know.

Good to see the Soy thing cleared up with science. I had a feeling the stuff constantly posted that Soy is used more for humans than livestock was nonsese

You can talk about vegans importing peppers from Spain but look at this, animal feed comes from places as far flung as Vietnam and Fiji

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/where-are-animal-feed-imports-coming-from/

Hardly seems sustainable.

Say my name wrote: »

And our strawberries from wexford and Spain. And tillage in the south and east.

Are you sure of that 55% figure.
Must be a lot less.
The number of veg growers decreased by half in the last twenty years due to consumers and the market.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20242443.html

Fingal county provides around 55% of the country’s fresh produce, which includes soft fruits and berries, apples, lettuces, peppers, asparagus, potatoes, onions, and carrots.

I have nothing against farmers doing their thing to make money. I just think our planet is sick and the food system for us is ridiculously unsustainable. I'm sure we could all still have some meat, sometimes, but we can't keep destroying habitats to produce food, we could produce enough food for all of us using less land and give more back to nature, if we all just ate less meat.

Say my name wrote: »

Any more recent accounts?

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

Gary kk wrote: »

Yeah look when the hulls/ beans are pressed and we get 18 or 19 present oil then the leftover is sent for animal feed. That is commonly acknowledged. It's not in different fields or plants, rather it's the same hulls for both.

Someone should contact the Dept of Ag in USA and let them know that they're spreading misinformation and that all their soy is actually primarily grown not for animal feed.

Gary kk wrote: »

Did they say it was grown mostly for animal feed or that most of went for animal feed. There is a difference I guess I most check after.

That's me for today. Slan.

It does say it's primarily for animals. Oiche mhaith.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Can't be bothered looking now, but still you can see that a tiny part of the country grows a huge percentage of the fruit and veg, and it shows how we need to diversify. I know a lot of the land isn't suitable but a lot of it is.

There used to be quite a couple of veg growing areas in cork , ( just 20 years ago ) ..
With the the exception of 2 or 3 growers there gone , it just didn't pay ..