New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2018 5:08pm

marno21 wrote: »

I don't but then again I didn't have any part whatsoever in deciding the policy.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Transport_Strategy_for_the_Greater_Dublin_Area_2016-2035.pdf

That doesn’t mean it should not be discussed or questioned here though does it?

With respect you’re very dismissive of anyone mentioning the issues faced by commuters in that area which are massive given that they face the slowest bus speeds in the city.

It’s a real problem and it’s as if no one gives a damn frankly.

And before someone mentions BusConnects - short of putting bombs in the suburban villages and flattening them, bus speeds aren’t going to change dramatically.

marno21 · 03-05-2018 5:09pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

That doesn’t mean it should not be discussed or questioned here though does it?

With respect you’re very dismissive of anyone mentioning the issues faced by commuters in that area.

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2018 5:15pm

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

Well perhaps it needs stressing that they may not be getting this quite right?

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 5:16pm

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies if it's coming across that way, but I'm comparing what's discussed here with policy and what's likely to happen vs. what we want to happen.

The NTA are driving this and they have outlined above what they believe to be the needs of Dublin for the next 20 years.

I agree with your point regarding Lucan Luas which I forgot to say, there is an underutilised heavy rail line that goes through that area which should be sweated first and foremost.

Just because there’s a framework for 20 years, that doesn’t mean plans and priorities can’t change.
It doesn’t mean the commuters who are constantly ignored can’t question the narrative.
The facts are Dublin south has a heavy rail line, (dart) and a light rail line (Luas)
Dublin south west has........busses. Very very slow busses.

roadmaster · 03-05-2018 5:18pm

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 5:24pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

Just asking a question here, but would the majority of Lucans traffic problems not be sorted out by running a brt using existing qbc’s on n4 into cc aswell as running a brt feeder to Adamstown train station and running commuter trains from there to cc via Phoenix Park tunnel.
Also building a large p+r at Adamstown train station.
Surely a Luas is a massive waste of money that would be better spent on the above at a fraction of the cost.

bk · 03-05-2018 5:56pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Good points.
The problem will be when/if we go on to build metro sw, it’s going to cost a hell of a lot more money than MetroLink, as the tunnel will have to go under the cc and out to nw direction.
To be honest the way public discontent is building I’ll be surprised if we get any kind of metro.
Sorry for being so negative!

Strictly speaking you could still just have a spur from Charlemont to South West Dublin and it would cost roughly the same 1.5b either way. It isn't unusual to have multiple spurs off a Metro line outside the city center section. If you take a look at Metro maps of Barcelona or Amsterdam you will see exactly that.

Having said that a full North East to South West separate (but integrated) Metro line would be preferable. After all the NE is as badly in need of service as the SW.

Your point on public discontent is exactly why I worry about suggestions like this. Metrolink will already be horribly expensive at 3 billion. I don't think we have ever built anything more then 1 billion in one project before, so 3 billion is already a stretch. Making it a 4.5 billion project would doom it IMO.

That is why I think it is better for all of us who want to see Dublin get high quality public transport to really focus on supporting and getting the planned Metrolink built.

Once built, I truly believe the people of Dublin will love it, and will demand a lot more Metros, just like happened with Luas.

Once Metrolink starts construction, I'll be right there beside you shouting for a SW line, but I really think we have to fully support the planned Metrolink first and get it over the line.

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 7:47pm

bk wrote: »

Strictly speaking you could still just have a spur from Charlemont to South West Dublin and it would cost roughly the same 1.5b either way. It isn't unusual to have multiple spurs off a Metro line outside the city center section. If you take a look at Metro maps of Barcelona or Amsterdam you will see exactly that.

Having said that a full North East to South West separate (but integrated) Metro line would be preferable. After all the NE is as badly in need of service as the SW.

Your point on public discontent is exactly why I worry about suggestions like this. Metrolink will already be horribly expensive at 3 billion. I don't think we have ever built anything more then 1 billion in one project before, so 3 billion is already a stretch. Making it a 4.5 billion project would doom it IMO.

That is why I think it is better for all of us who want to see Dublin get high quality public transport to really focus on supporting and getting the planned Metrolink built.

Once built, I truly believe the people of Dublin will love it, and will demand a lot more Metros, just like happened with Luas.

Once Metrolink starts construction, I'll be right there beside you shouting for a SW line, but I really think we have to fully support the planned Metrolink first and get it over the line.

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

Kevtherev1 · 03-05-2018 8:19pm

roadmaster wrote: »

If a Lucan luas Line is built. I wonder could we see it go as far as weston because when its developed with new estates it will nearly be a new town

I wonder if luas lucan is really viable. It has been stated before Buses from lucan to City Centre takes 25 to 30 mins via chapelizod bypass.

The old preferred route for luas lucan via Ballyfermot was too winding and slow journeytime estimate of 40 mins. RPA then decided to plan Luas Lucan to connect to the Dart Underground at inchicore.

A luas Lucan alignment cant be that efficient in journey time with the constraints of having to connect to red line at BlackHorse and then congested city centre to trinity proposal.

salmocab · 03-05-2018 8:27pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

Adamstown is south west

LXFlyer · 03-05-2018 8:40pm

salmocab wrote: »

Adamstown is south west

I’m sorry, but that’s the kind of smart assed post that really annoys me as its just being smart for the sake of it. By any measure, Adamstown is west of the city centre.

It’s obvious where Tom and I are talking about - effectively the areas served by between the Templeogue, Rathfarnham “QBCs” and the area immediately to the west of them.

That area has the slowest bus speeds in the city and no amount of tinkering is going to change that. There is nothing being planned to deal with it and as I’ve said journey times have extended to 90 minutes to cover 12km.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2018 8:42pm

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

I wonder if luas lucan is really viable. It has been stated before Buses from lucan to City Centre takes 25 to 30 mins via chapelizod bypass.

The old preferred route for luas lucan via Ballyfermot was too winding and slow journeytime estimate of 40 mins. RPA then decided to plan Luas Lucan to connect to the Dart Underground at inchicore.

A luas Lucan alignment cant be that efficient in journey time with the constraints of having to connect to red line at BlackHorse and then congested city centre to trinity proposal.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

salmocab · 03-05-2018 8:46pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’m sorry, but that’s the kind of smart assed post that really annoys me as its just being smart for the sake of it. By any measure, Adamstown is due west of the city centre.

It’s obvious where Tom and I are talking about - effectively the areas served by between the Templeogue, Rathfarnham “QBCs” and the area immediately to the west of them.

That area has the slowest bus speeds in the city and no amount of tinkering is going to change that. There is nothing being planned to deal with it and as I’ve said journey times have extended to 90 minutes to cover 12km.

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

LXFlyer · 03-05-2018 8:53pm

salmocab wrote: »

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

With respect - you know what he meant.

All that you’re doing is going off on a pointless tangent from the point he and I are trying to make for the sake of it.

Sam Russell · 03-05-2018 9:04pm

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.

*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

salmocab · 03-05-2018 9:08pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

With respect - you know what he meant.

All that you’re doing is going off on a pointless tangent from the point he and I are trying to make for the sake of it.

No I didn’t know what he meant I presumed he thought Adamstown was at the very least on the Northside.
What’s the point? That the corridor thru Harold’s X terenure Rathfarnham needs a metro? I’m sure pretty much everyone agrees with that. But saying Adamstown is NW not even just west is just plain wrong it has no bearing on this discussion and we can’t start claiming areas are more in need of good public transport than others and then use very inaccurate points to back ourselves up.

salmocab · 03-05-2018 9:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.

*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

I’d go across by maybe o Connell street and then out toward clontarf and basically split the difference between the dart and the metro not sure exact route as I don’t know that side of the city very well

Dats me · 03-05-2018 9:18pm

Making Tara Street a proper Metro/DART interchange would be very cool, but don't think the angles quite work if you want to swing up North East, it is a very central spot though with great interchanges assuming MetroLink is completed

From there could hit Croke Park and Beaumont many?

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 9:25pm

salmocab wrote: »

Adamstown is south west

No is not. I’m talking about crumlin green hills Walkinstown Terenure templeouge rathfarnham Knocklyon firhouse etc etc.

Sam Russell · 03-05-2018 9:26pm

I was thinking Cross Guns as the Metro - Metro link, with the SW Metro going then towards Whitehall, Coolock, and then Clongriffin Dart Stn.

salmocab · 03-05-2018 9:28pm

tom1ie wrote: »

No is not. I’m talking about crumlin green hills Walkinstown Terenure templeouge rathfarnham Knocklyon firhouse etc etc.

I know where your talking about and fair enough it’s west not SW but it’s certainly not north west.

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 9:31pm

salmocab wrote: »

I wasn’t being smart arsed he said nw has 2 heavy rail lines which it doesn’t Adamstown is west the line runs south west to Kildare. I’m well aware of where your talking about it’s basically the middle of the 2 existing luas lines. I live in Rathfarnham so am well aware of the bus times and I’m very keen that we would and should have a metro as the area is in dire need of something but that doesn’t mean that when people say something that is factually very wrong that we shouldn’t correct it.

Listen. You know very well I meant there are no heavy rail lines in the sw areas I have mentioned in my previous post. You say you are from the rathfarnham area so am I. You don’t seem too bothered by the fact we have gridlocked traffic and no access to rail, meanwhile south Dublin gets an upgrade to a Luas line whilst also having access to dart......

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 9:31pm

salmocab wrote: »

I know where your talking about and fair enough it’s west not SW but it’s certainly not north west.

Fair enough. :rolleyes:

salmocab · 03-05-2018 9:37pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Listen. You know very well I meant there are no heavy rail lines in the sw areas I have mentioned in my previous post. You say you are from the rathfarnham area so am I. You don’t seem too bothered by the fact we have gridlocked traffic and no access to rail, meanwhile south Dublin gets an upgrade to a Luas line whilst also having access to dart......

I’ve said several times that that corridor badly needs a metro, traffic is chaotic I don’t know where you jumped to the conclusion I’m not too bothered. The upgrade is needed and has an infinitely better chance of happening in the medium term future than a line that will benefit us, that’s a pain for us but it doesn’t mean that the upgrade shouldn’t happen.

tom1ie · 03-05-2018 9:51pm

salmocab wrote: »

I’ve said several times that that corridor badly needs a metro, traffic is chaotic I don’t know where you jumped to the conclusion I’m not too bothered. The upgrade is needed and has an infinitely better chance of happening in the medium term future than a line that will benefit us, that’s a pain for us but it doesn’t mean that the upgrade shouldn’t happen.

I will end the hostilities by saying, I think we both agree the sooner the better a Tbm gets put in the ground and the first steps towards a fully inclusive, fully integrated metro system the envy of Europe gets built.

tom1ie · 04-05-2018 10:26am

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.

*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

But that’s the thing, a sw line would have to be integrated with metro link somewhere to allow passengers from firhouse go transfer to swords or sandyford direction, however the line can’t “share” the same tunnel as MetroLink as you’d have to cut frequency on the south and sw lines.
Therefore a second tunnel would have to go under the cc and out towards Christchurch etc, but the obvious spot for the integrated station would be charlemount.
The other option is just hav a spur from charlemount out to firhouse, but as previously stated on this forum that’d probably put too much pressure on Metrolink and wouldn’t serve nw. Even though I have my doubts if nw and w requires a metro. They have heavy rail lines.

jd · 04-05-2018 10:59am

tom1ie wrote: »

The other option is just hav a spur from charlemount out to firhouse, but as previously stated on this forum that’d probably put too much pressure on Metrolink and wouldn’t serve nw. Even though I have my doubts if nw and w requires a metro. They have heavy rail lines.

I think it would actually head NE rather than NW - Beaumont/Artane-Coolock-Clangriffin or similar

bk · 04-05-2018 12:09pm

tom1ie wrote: »

I agree with most of what your saying however I wouldn't agree the nw are in as bad a need as us in sw. Nw have two heavy rail lines going through the areas, the kildare line (via adamstown) and the western suburban (via castleknock). We have none!
We literally only have busses.

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

Sam Russell · 04-05-2018 12:18pm

bk wrote: »

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

If a second Metro line is to be built, then SW to NE is pretty obvious since E W is already covered by heavy rail - Dart expansion and Commuter.

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Whitworth Road is the obvious choice.

bk · 04-05-2018 12:52pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Well a separate tunnel would certainly be preferable in terms of capacity.

However depending on what sepc they use for the Metrolink tunnel, I do think it could have enough capacity for two spurs, at least for a couple of decades.

If they go for the high end option of 90m stations/trains, with full automation and high floors, then I think it could have the capacity for spurs.

Amirani · 04-05-2018 12:57pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If a second Metro line is to be built, then SW to NE is pretty obvious since E W is already covered by heavy rail - Dart expansion and Commuter.

Now N S Metro has to cross SW NE Metro some where. It cannot use the same tunnel as that would halve the capacity. Given Whitworth Road interchange, it would be favourite. The second option would be Tara St, but that would mean the NE section would copy the Dart out past Clontarf and divert after that.

Whitworth Road is the obvious choice.

I don't think Whitworth works that well for a metro coming from South West, it would almost have to completely avoid the City Centre to the West? This would make it non-optimal for most commuters using it, would almost mandate transfers at Whitworth for anyone using the CBD.

I think Tara Street would be much more beneficial if the curves worked okay. After this, proceed to Croke Park/Mountjoy Square area > St Vincent's GAA/Marino > Beaumont.

If Tara Street can't work then I'd probably interchange at O'Connell St. I don't think the mainline rail connections would be as crucial for this line if they're already covered with North-South line.

antoinolachtnai · 04-05-2018 1:18pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not really so. One going from Christ Church along New Street, Patrick Street, Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross Road, Terenure Road North to Rathfarnham would be on broad road the whole way, and could start at Stephen's Green and go up Dame Street to Christ Church. Broad road all the way from Christ Church!

These roads are already pretty busy. The utility diversion work required would be immense. If you put a Luas down those roads, then you reduce the capacity for buses and other vehicles. Where is the Luas supposed to get from Dame St to St Stephens Green? It can't join the green line. That line is already full.

LXFlyer · 04-05-2018 1:19pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not really so. One going from Christ Church along New Street, Patrick Street, Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross Road, Terenure Road North to Rathfarnham would be on broad road the whole way, and could start at Stephen's Green and go up Dame Street to Christ Church. Broad road all the way from Christ Church!

Tis seldom I'd see eye-to-eye with Michael McDowell on anything, but the idea of putting a Metro station in an out-of-the-way place, right beside a road that has at times been listed as the most expensive house-buying road in Dublin, and splitting that community - I agree with him that this is unwise.

Sorry, but that is baloney.

There isn’t the roadspace as it is on that corridor for two traffic lanes and two bus lanes for the majority of the route.

Without massive CPO costs and demolishing Terenure Village and Harold’s Cross Village you could not put two segregated tram lines in.

The route has already been rejected as a potential LUAS route for precisely that reason.

For trams to work reliably and offer improved journey times they have to run on fully segregated routes (or on roads where there is sufficient space for segregated traffic and LUAS lanes (like the Naas Rd at Bluebell)).

There are actually very few remaining routes where this can happen in Dublin - McDowell and his ilk don’t seem to get this.

bk · 04-05-2018 1:24pm

Amirani wrote: »

I don't think Whitworth works that well for a metro coming from South West, it would almost have to completely avoid the City Centre to the West? This would make it non-optimal for most commuters using it, would almost mandate transfers at Whitworth for anyone using the CBD.

Yes, I was thinking the same.

Actually another option would be if instead of building the DART Underground tunnel, we built an East to West Metro (say from Docks area, connecting Connolly and Hueston and out towards Lucan), then the SW tunnel could be a spur off that line.

If it was a fully segregated line, then I'd say something like St Patricks Cathedral, Dublin Castle, O'Connoll St, Drumcondra.

It could change with the Dart Underground Tunnel at St Pats or Dublin Castle depending where that goes and it could interchange with the other DART line at Drumcondra. While interchanging with Metrolink and the Red and Green Luas lines at O'Connell St. Of course that is all assuming that the DU tunnel gets built.

LXFlyer · 04-05-2018 1:31pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

Sorry! Sandyford!

Both Harold's Cross and Terenure already had two tram lines - they were a major part of the original tram network.

But they didn’t have the level of traffic then that there is today - how would you fit that in? It’s impossible. You can’t ban suburban traffic.

You can’t compare the old tram routes with the corridors of today. It’s chalk and cheese.

Moved

Sorry mod was composing before you posted! Can you move this and other posts?

bk · 04-05-2018 1:38pm

bk wrote: »

It could change with the Dart Underground Tunnel at St Pats or Dublin Castle depending where that goes and it could interchange with the other DART line at Drumcondra. While interchanging with Metrolink and the Red and Green Luas lines at O'Connell St. Of course that is all assuming that the DU tunnel gets built.

Actually thinking about this a bit more. If the Dart Underground Tunnel does get built (hopefully), then the SW spur could actually be a DART line off this instead of Metro (not that there is fundamentally much of a difference *).

You could also then have a NE DART spur off the Northern DART line around Clontarf/Connolly.

* Technically of course there are differences in track gauge, power systems, signalling, but if designed right, there shouldn't be much noticeable difference to users.

specialbyte · 04-05-2018 9:11pm

bk wrote: »

Actually thinking about this a bit more. If the Dart Underground Tunnel does get built (hopefully), then the SW spur could actually be a DART line off this instead of Metro (not that there is fundamentally much of a difference *).

You could also then have a NE DART spur off the Northern DART line around Clontarf/Connolly.

* Technically of course there are differences in track gauge, power systems, signalling, but if designed right, there shouldn't be much noticeable difference to users.

You'd probably have too much capacity on that spur line to the SW. DART trains have a length of ~200m. We're talking at 65-90m for the MetroLink scheme and that's travelling through an area with far more trip generators that this SW area has to offer.

On a very unrelated note. It would be great if we could connect to Connolly station with the SW metro line.

citizen6 · 06-05-2018 11:45am

specialbyte wrote: »

You'd probably have too much capacity on that spur line to the SW. DART trains have a length of ~200m. We're talking at 65-90m for the MetroLink scheme and that's travelling through an area with far more trip generators that this SW area has to offer.

On a very unrelated note. It would be great if we could connect to Connolly station with the SW metro line.

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2018 2:13pm

citizen6 wrote: »

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

The point of a Whitworth Rd connection is that it allows an interchange with four lines, so only one change from one to the other. The routing of the Whitworth to NE Dublin is open to suggestion, but Beaumont Hospital is in that direction, but I do not see any trip generators beside that, also there does not appear to be any obvious route.

Going NW is not really worth it because there will be Dart Expansion trains heading that way. Dart spurs and feeder buses will go along way to meet demand.

marno21 · 06-05-2018 2:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point of a Whitworth Rd connection is that it allows an interchange with four lines, so only one change from one to the other. The routing of the Whitworth to NE Dublin is open to suggestion, but Beaumont Hospital is in that direction, but I do not see any trip generators beside that, also there does not appear to be any obvious route.

Going NW is not really worth it because there will be Dart Expansion trains heading that way. Dart spurs and feeder buses will go along way to meet demand.

Would it not make more sense to route a Metro via the city centre seeing as that would be the biggest trip generator? There wouldn't be many people going from there to the Houston or Maynooth lines,

Sam Russell · 06-05-2018 2:47pm

marno21 wrote: »

Would it not make more sense to route a Metro via the city centre seeing as that would be the biggest trip generator? There wouldn't be many people going from there to the Houston or Maynooth lines,

Maybe, but Whitworth Rd is only 1.5 km from the Metrolink station at the top of OCS.

It makes sense for the SW line to join the Metrolink, but that cuts capacity on the Green Line portion so having an interchange makes sense to try to maintain capacity that capacity.

Where to put it is the question. If you are changing once, then it matters not where that change is providing it does not extend your journey time or cause long walks. If frequency of trains in in the order of a few minutes (less than 5), and the interchange is just crossing a platform, or climbing 10 metres of escalator, then I think that is OK.

Do not forget, the CC is not the Spire, it is about 2 km around it. Providing the Metros are frequent and fast, passenger will love them. On the Southside of Dublin, the CC is St Stephen's Green, while those on the Northside say it is O'Connell Bridge.

Dats me · 06-05-2018 3:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you are changing once, then it matters not where that change is providing it does not extend your journey time or cause long walks.

Surely having the interchange at Whitworth would extend the journey time though? Given that a SW-NE Metro would really be about connecting these areas to the City Centre? Having access to the CC via Whitworth would add time & complexity

Sam Russell · 06-05-2018 4:30pm

Dats me wrote: »

Surely having the interchange at Whitworth would extend the journey time though? Given that a SW-NE Metro would really be about connecting these areas to the City Centre? Having access to the CC via Whitworth would add time & complexity

Harold's Cross to Whitworth Road passes close to the City Centre. It would pass close to St Patrick's Cathedral, and the Four Courts/Smithfield. Smithfield is 1 km from O'Connell Bridge.

If it is not to merge with Metrolink which reduces capacity, it needs to keep west of it, and it is less than 1 km from most of that part of town. If DU were built, it would link with that as well.

Plenty of links creates a network.

tom1ie · 06-05-2018 8:07pm

citizen6 wrote: »

The lack of trip generators on a Harold's Cross/Terenure metro line is a serious problem. Further to CatInABox's point on the Metrolink thread, a SW Metro would really need to be a transport spine with feeder busses coming from Rathfarnham, Walkinstown, Kimmage, Firhouse, Ballyboden etc.

If Dart Underground happens a SW metro could terminate at Stephen's Green but I would prefer to join it to a Malahide Road metro, via Connolly as you say. Makes more sense to me than connecting to Whitworth Rd.

We are going on about trip generators here, but if we have a properly integrated system that allows travel from sw to swords, cc, airport, sandyford, cherrywood, and all heavy rail line stations- Tara street, Huston etc then we don’t need to worry about trip generators as everyone will leave the car at home as pt will reach most places.
For example, if we don’t build sw line, then people in the sw will still use their car leading to traffic.
If we build a sw line with a proper p+r and feeder busses to the metro stations, and connect to the places I’ve listed then people will leave the car at home leading to less traffic meaning more road space for busses, meaning more capacity for pt meaning a higher density of housing can be built on the further extremities of the metro routes and indeed along the metro routes.

tom1ie · 06-05-2018 8:09pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Harold's Cross to Whitfield Road passes close to the City Centre. It would pass close to St Patrick's Cathedral, and the Four Courts/Smithfield. Smithfield is 1 km from O'Connell Bridge.

If it is not to merge with Metrolink which reduces capacity, it needs to keep west of it, and it is less than 1 km from most of that part of town. If DU were built, it would link with that as well.

Plenty of links creates a network.

Yeah it shouldn’t share the tunnel but it should share a station allowing a change of line.

tom1ie · 06-05-2018 8:13pm

bk wrote: »

tom, if you read my post carefully that you are commenting on here, I said a second South West Metro line should head North EAST, not NW, I didn't say anything about NW!

As in the SW line should head through the city center and then head roughly EAST of Drumcondra road, Croke Park - Marino/Whitehall - Beaumont/Artane - Coolock - Clarehall - Clongriffin, or some variant on that route.

Or heading North EAST from Whitworth Road, if the SW and NE lines are spurs of the central Metrolink line rather then a completely separate tunnel.

Those areas only have bus too!

Apologies bk I misread your post.

tom1ie · 06-05-2018 9:34pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Metrolink was already in place, where would a Metro from Tallaght go to?

I think basically follow the N81* to Harolds Cross, but where then? There is no need to get hung up with the Charlemont Bridge - it is irrelevant.

*They have renumbered the N81 inside the M50 - it is now called the R137.

I think this is a crazy argument to be honest.
If Metrolink was already in place a sw line would allow pt users to travel to swords cc airport sandyford or cherrywood once the sw line intersects at some point with metrolink and provide connection to heavy rail.
The fact that intersection would be in charlemount or st Stephens green doesn’t really matter. Your offering people that are stick on busses or in cars for 90 mins a viable alternative
Also as previous posters have quite rightly pointed out the sw line should then head out in the ne direction.

Sam Russell · 06-05-2018 10:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was thinking Cross Guns as the Metro - Metro link, with the SW Metro going then towards Whitehall, Coolock, and then Clongriffin Dart Stn.

tom1ie wrote: »

I think this is a crazy argument to be honest.
If Metrolink was already in place a sw line would allow pt users to travel to swords cc airport sandyford or cherrywood once the sw line intersects at some point with metrolink and provide connection to heavy rail.
The fact that intersection would be in charlemount or st Stephens green doesn’t really matter. Your offering people that are stick on busses or in cars for 90 mins a viable alternative
Also as previous posters have quite rightly pointed out the sw line should then head out in the ne direction.

My point is Metro SW should travel west of Metrolink as far as Whitworth Road, and then head NE through Whitehall etc. and terminating at Clongriffin. As it passes any Luas or Metro or Dart, there is an connection. This assumes Dart expansion goes ahead, and possibly even Dart underground goes ahead.

With this level of rail PT, most journeys would involve just one change or less.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your post.

tom1ie · 06-05-2018 11:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

My point is Metro SW should travel west of Metrolink as far as Whitworth Road, and then head NE through Whitehall etc. and terminating at Clongriffin. As it passes any Luas or Metro or Dart, there is an connection. This assumes Dart expansion goes ahead, and possibly even Dart underground goes ahead.

With this level of rail PT, most journeys would involve just one change or less.

Perhaps I have misunderstood your post.

Perhaps it was I who misunderstood. I presumed you were questioning the validity of the sw metro by questioning where it would go after Harold's x, as in there would be no need for it.
Apologies if that wasn't the case.

Dats me · 06-05-2018 11:41pm

Sam I just still don't think that building a SW/NE Metro and leaving passengers 1km from the proper City Centre is viable. It would be one thing to stay West and only crossover at O'Connell Street, but I do think Dame Street, Tara Street, Conolly (even though this duplicates DART for a bit) is much more viable.

While the Whitworth interchange is lovely to keep the number of connections low, the main point of the Metro is to connect these areas to the city centre surely, and leaving their options to reach the centre to either a 1km walk or changing at Whitworth to go back the way they came for two stops isn't a runner as far as I can see

New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

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