Etiquette - Young Girls In Mens Changing Rooms.

walshb wrote: »

The issue shouldn't focus on whether or not the child can be harmed. Harmed is very subjective. Physically harmed? That's open to debate and yes, it is a possibility in the gyms I have been in. Mentally or emotionally harmed, again, who knows. Either way, this isn't the real issue. The real issue is whether or not it is proper to allow young girls into mens changing areas WITHOUT providing proper changing facilities (cubicles), where parents have the choice to change their young girls in some privacy!

Whether a child is negatively effected is the issue or are you saying that an adult negatively effected is an issue here? You say it is wrong because it is not proper. What is proper? Who decides proper? That is the silly argument I am talking about i.e. its "just not right" for no reason other than it feels wrong because of the Irish "fear of nakedness and showing flesh" mentality.

The only way it could be wrong is if it negatively effects the child. You have not properly answered - is the child more likely to be affected negatively by changing in a mens dressing room? If yes, how will they be affected negatively? How will they be physically harmed when their parent will be right beside them changing with them? Will they be attacked and abused or what? If there is no negative effect on the child then there is nothing wrong with it.

walshb wrote: »

All I have said is this and I am done saying it now. No problem whatsoever with nudity and adults mixing openly; but when young children are involved, I think a certain discretion should be applied.

but yet you don't give reasons why it is bad for a child to change into swim gear in a mens dressing room. Should the child be embarrassed about the possibility of being seen naked? Do you really think he/she cares? If anything that kind of mentality of "they must not see me naked" is damaging to a child and can cause serious confidence and self-image issues.

walshb wrote: »

Should a parent have the right to change their children in private if the choose?

Yes or no?

Of course they have the right so I ask you this:

Should a male parent have the right to change his young daughter in a mens changing room if he chooses?

Yes or no?

walshb wrote: »

How will they be physically harmed?

I did answer that. I told you many times that the gyms I have been in have been
littered with many men; and young children roaming free, with parents not paying all that much attention. So yes, there is a possibility.

It doesn't matter where a child is roaming free for the changing room or on the street - either way to leave a child unsupervised wherever is a risk. You are trying to imply that it is more of a risk whilst in a changing room. That is just wrong.

The gyms were "littered with many men"? Do you not think there is just as much of a risk of the child being abused anywhere where children are left unsupervised?

walshb wrote: »

As for the emotional harm, how can I or you or anyone know the possible effects

You are the one that is saying it is wrong to do without any evidence to suggest it is.

delly wrote: »

Ok, how about looking it from this view.

So many people are saying that there is no harm in being openly naked and so many European countries have it that way, so why shouldn't we?

First off, I say that if it became an open policy where so many children and adults were naked in changing rooms without inhibitions, then I think it would be a fact that you would get peado's going to swimming pools more often to try and get a peek of a child. Would you agree or disagree with this?

Even if you disagree with this statement, and you still say what harm comes to the child, what harm comes to a woman changing in her own home with somebody looking in? No physical harm comes to the woman, so whats the problem? Its the same with kids in a changing room, no physical harm comes to them but the potential of such a open naked policy in the peado capital of Europe i.e. Ireland, would result in an increase in scum trying to take a look without you knowing, as they sure as hell aren't going to do it when you can see them.

I agree fully; liberalism in relation to this can breed this sort of behaviour, where actual paedos' will be joining gyms just to prowl. Even though no physical harm may come to the child, do you want the POSSIBILITY of
some perv ogling your daughter, because this is the key issue. And don't tell me that every man in a changing area is NOT a pervert; I'd say most are not, but there will always be a few! I as a parent will not risk it, if you want to, then go ahead.

axer, we have been going back and forward on this issue. The bottom line is you think there is zero wrong with young girls being allowed change openly and freely amongst many men, and strange men. I think this is wrong and I think cubicles should be provided and used in this situation.

delly wrote: »

I personally would not want to see other peoples naked daughters in a changing room.

For your sake or theirs?

walshb wrote: »

Legally, he has the right to do so. I think the issue is that there should be cubicles provided for young girls in male changing rooms. But, as I said, legally I believe he has the right to change her in full view of anyone. I personally think this is odd and not the right thing, but that's just me.

I wouldn't change my daughter in full view of many men. Am I weird to want some privacy for my child? I don't think so and I am not prepared to take the risk that there are some men who are perverts and will ogle at any opportunity.

That's the best common ground I can give you!

so have you an issue then with a father that disagrees with your opinion like delly seems to an issue with i.e. you wouldn't do it for your child but would you have problem with a father choosing to change his 5 year old daughter into swimgear in the mens changing room because he does not see the big deal or would you make a complaint or say it to the father?

axer wrote: »

For your sake or theirs?

so have you an issue then with a father that disagrees with your opinion like delly seems to an issue with i.e. you wouldn't do it for your child but would you have problem with a father choosing to change his 5 year old daughter into swimgear in the mens changing room because he does not see the big deal or would you make a complaint or say it to the father?

Did you not read my post. I said I did see a problem and I said I thought it to be odd that a father would bring his daughter into a MALE changing area and have her change openly in full view of many men. You are getting my answer, but you do not seem to be digesting it:rolleyes:

BTW, I did speak to the gym involved and did check the legal stance on it and was told that
there is no law against it!

axer wrote: »

I asked if you had an issue with it if the father did not see it as a problem in that does it affect you personally. Obviously it does affect you. I just think that is more your problem than the father or childs problem.

Then maybe you need to get on to your local TD to get the law changed or vote with your feet but just remember not everyone sees it as a big deal.

Talk about stating the obvious.
Yes, it is my problem as some fathers do not see
the problem in bringing their young daughters into a male changing room, otherwise
they wouldn't do it. It's similar to the way some folks don't see a problem
in parking in disabled parking bays when not being disabled!

I did get on to a TD and was told that there was no law against it etc.

Yes, plenty see no problem with it, but also, plenty do see a problem with it.
I'm in one camp and you are in the other.

And yes, when I am showering and I look out of the showers and see
standing in front of me, two-three naked young girls just staring at me and
others in sort of bewilderment and confusion, it is a little odd and uncomfortable!

axer wrote: »

Completely different since that is illegal under the Road Traffic Act 2002.

I know, I know. I was just using it as an example of how some people find it OK to do this. And even if there was no law enacted for this and it was kind of like a courtesy arrangement, then there would still be people seeing no problem in it. It's not all about the LAW you know

Hey, there is no law against women drinking and smoking during pregnancy, however, I find it despicable!
You getting my drift?

I haven't read the whole thread so I may be rehashing some points already made.

I have 2 children - 8yo boy & 6yo girl. For the last 4 years I have been taking them swimming in Total Fitness Coolock.

In the mens changing rooms, there are cubicles provided, but not restricted for use by families. In the same area there are lockers for general use.

What regularly annoys me is men using this area to change when there are families in the area and plenty of free lockers in the rest of the changing room. Furthermore some of them regularly enage in 'colourful' conversations standing b*ll*ck naked in front of my kids.

It's another example where if people don't have the cop to realise that their behaviour is inappropriate, they won't accept it when it is pointed out to them.

I have no major issue with my kids being in the presence of naked adults, but if there is a choice of stripping off in front of kids, or not, I would choose change elsewhere.

I have written to TF about this, but nothing has changed.

TarfHead wrote: »

I haven't read the whole thread so I may be rehashing some points already made.

I have 2 children - 8yo boy & 6yo girl. For the last 4 years I have been taking them swimming in Total Fitness Coolock.

In the mens changing rooms, there are cubicles provided, but not restricted for use by families. In the same area there are lockers for general use.

What regularly annoys me is men using this area to change when there are families in the area and plenty of free lockers in the rest of the changing room. Furthermore some of them regularly enage in 'colourful' conversations standing b*ll*ck naked in front of my kids.

It's another example where if people don't have the cop to realise that their behaviour is inappropriate, they won't accept it when it is pointed out to them.

I have no major issue with my kids being in the presence of naked adults, but if there is a choice of stripping off in front of kids, or not, I would choose change elsewhere.

I have written to TF about this, but nothing has changed.

Couldn't agree with you more. It's all about manners and discretion, just in the childrens interest, that's all. Parents should behave in a manner respecting peoples opinions on this issue. I also got onto TF and after my complaint, they installed private cubicles, but still there were men who allowed their daughters a free reign in the changing area and didn't care who saw them or who they saw.

axer, regarding the harm to the children that you insist on bringing up; nobody can say how it will affect them, but there is potential harm and potential risk. There you have it.
We know you have no problem with the potential and liable possibility of perverts ogling
young girls in changing rooms or at worst, physically engaging with them. You see no risk, I do.....

And you think I have the problem, wow!

jim o doom wrote: »

I know this is miles back, but - wasn't some school in Africa, which was run by Oprah Winfrey, recently involved in a massive scandal, where allegations of the female headmistress having sexually abused several girls in the school?

sorry it just popped into my head while reading through the thread..

Personally I am more comfortable when female children are not in the mens changing room : - I'm no prude, it just makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable!

Hey, I am sure it exists, but lets be quite honest, it is extremely rare and well behind the risks posed by men. That's just nature.....

And I agree, I too am personally more comfortable when young girls are NOT amongst men whilst changing!

hottstuff wrote: »

Yes , it is wrong IMO.

Not allowing Young girls into mens changing rooms is the right thing to do to avoid any problems.
I agree that the same should be applied to the womens changing rooms , but there is definatley less risk involved there.

In the womens changing area, there is a hell of a difference and a hell of a lesser risk.
I see no problem with a woman bringing their young son into the changing area. However, after say 5 or 6, then it may be a little uncomfortable for some women to be changing.

walshb wrote: »

A young 4 or 5 year old boy in a male changing room is for some inappropriate. They are still too young and have no clue, just like a girl. They are not separated by a thing, apart from their sexual gender. And, there applies the same risk to a young boy in a male changing area as to a girl. Perverts do not discriminate on the basis of GENDER!

Well that depends on your point of view I guess. I have a son, he's older now but I never had an issue bringing him into changing rooms or him being around the shower area after a match or whatever because there's nothing there that he doesn't have himself. In a lot of ways I felt it was important to show him that there's nothing to be ashamed of regarding the naked body, and that it was perfectly acceptable and normal for him to comfortable around others of his own sex when showering and changing etc.

With consideration to the threat of perverts, I think that's very much a parental control issue rather than anything else. If you supervise your child properly and ensure that you're with them then perverts won't be able to do anything to them (assuming that there are perverts present) Will they still be able to look? Sure, but they could be doing that at school, while your children are out playing, while they're taking part in team sports etc..The thing to remember is how impressionable children are, if you give them the indication, real or perceived, that there's an issue with them changing or showering in front of others then that can have significant impacts in later life in terms of their confidence and self-esteem.

I absolutely get the point about girls in male changing rooms and vice versa, although it doesn't make me uncomfortable I can see why some people would be.