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Margins from suckler beef

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    #32
    jfh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,263 ✭✭✭jfh


    Agree on the groups with sucklers, as my calving season is a couple of months, have cows still to calve on bare paddock, have freshly calved cow, heifers and cows from the bull running with a teaser.
    Then the main suckler herd, then bullocks, then heifers. My fencing is excellent so can graze next to each other but a lot of groups all the same


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    #33
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Geuze wrote: »
    I am not a farmer. I have farmer friends, and I know a small bit about it. I buy the FJ maybe twice a year, good newspaper.

    I have read articles about the difficulties in suckler beef.

    It wasn't always obvious to me than even within beef farming, there are various different business models.

    Can I ask a few questions about sucker farmers:

    mainly based in west / northwest, is that correct?
    they own X number of cows, and hope to have X calves each year
    they don't use the cows for milk, instead the income is from selling the calf each year
    I'm not clear on what time of year the calf is born?
    I note the points about carrying the cow over the winter
    unlike dairy, it seems to be that income arrives just once a year, when the weanling calves are sold?
    at what age are weanling calves sold?
    who are the buyers of the calves?
    why don't the suckers farmers keep the calves, and finish them?

    On your questions it is all along the west coast from West Cork to Donegal and along the rest of the border and some of the Midlands. Over the last 2-3 years herds on better land have moved over to dairying especially on larger full-time farms.

    You be hoping for a calf,/ year, better operators are hitting over 0.95 Cales/cow. However the national average is about 0.8/cow each year.

    Most herds are spring calving (Feb-Apr ) but you have autumn calving but some farmers let cows virtually calf all year around they are in a small minority at this stage.

    Yes your income is either calf store or beef sales. Weanlings are generally sold at 6-10 months mostly lads try to sell them at 300-350 kgs live weight.

    On better type land some farmers carry them to store(16-22 months) and some carry them to finish. However on poorer quality land lads ten to sell at weaning ( when the calf is removed from the mother).

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #34
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    I perceived suckler bred cattle to be better value than my usual middle of the road mix of fr and frx
    bullocks last year and while financially I was correct in the sums the little extra left isn’t wort a ****e, the temperament of these hoors leaves it just not worth it.
    Every time I go do anything with them there’s drama!
    I supposed they do focus your mind on prayer!!
    “Please God don’t let him jump that”
    Ect....

    The few goms I see pictured in the ifj looking to couple the few Bob we get handy from Europe to these hoors of animals for the benefit of a beef processing cartel should be sectioned.


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    #35
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    On your questions it is all along the west coast from West Cork to Donegal and along the rest of the border and some of the Midlands. Over the last 2-3 years herds on better land have moved over to dairying especially on larger full-time farms.

    You be hoping for a calf,/ year, better operators are hitting over 0.95 Cales/cow. However the national average is about 0.8/cow each year.

    Most herds are spring calving (Feb-Apr ) but you have autumn calving but some farmers let cows virtually calf all year around they are in a small minority at this stage.

    Yes your income is either calf store or beef sales. Weanlings are generally sold at 6-10 months mostly lads try to sell them at 300-350 kgs live weight.

    On better type land some farmers carry them to store(16-22 months) and some carry them to finish. However on poorer quality land lads ten to sell at weaning ( when the calf is removed from the mother).

    The calving dates rhetoric has been well spun by ifj and tragacanth and I’m not sure it’s true. It’s trying to take dairy farming logic where a cow is losing milk sales and applying it to a totally different scenario.
    I’ve often seen lighter late born stock touch within 50€ of older cattle 100 kg heavier.


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    #36
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Jjameson wrote: »
    I perceived suckler bred cattle to be better value than my usual middle of the road mix of fr and frx
    bullocks last year and while financially I was correct in the sums the little extra left isn’t wort a ****e, the temperament of these hoors leaves it just not worth it.
    Every time I go do anything with them there’s drama!
    I supposed they do focus your mind on prayer!!
    “Please God don’t let him jump that”
    Ect....

    The few goms I see pictured in the ifj looking to couple the few Bob we get handy from Europe to these hoors of animals for the benefit of a beef processing cartel should be sectioned.


    Ya I agree about those two things idiots, I say if you added there total number of brain cells you would struggle to get to two between them. They are just both old men that have not moved with the times.

    I agree with your assessment of handling Suckler bred cattle. Ya you can manage a few handy enough in a bunch with dairy cross stock. But when it goes beyond 15% of the total it starts to get really messy. As you say the few bob extra is hardly worth it especially if you are working.even traditional breed suckler's get messy when handling in the crush. Even if you have them housed for the winter it can be dangerous handling them. A lad that set stocks say now anything like that dose not go back to grass after the second winter


    The other factor I do not like is the amount of money you have tied up in them. Last year average store costs bit with 600 euro 60 cattle cost me less that 37k. If I bought Suckler bred cattle it would be another 15-20k tied up in stock

    Jjameson wrote: »
    The calving dates rhetoric has been well spun by ifj and tragacanth and I’m not sure it’s true. It’s trying to take dairy farming logic where a cow is losing milk sales and applying it to a totally different scenario.
    I’ve often seen lighter late born stock touch within 50€ of older cattle 100 kg heavier.

    Ya that because lighter ones 4-5 months old in the Autumn can be carried cheaply for two winters. If you finish your them from June to early September they leave way more than lads slaughtered out if the shed the previous winter

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #37
    Easten
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Hard to know what to do, I've tried bits of them other systems like bucket calf rearing but that was a waste of effort for me. Its fair bad to be in the seller box of the mart with 20 hereford which are really no more than whitehead jersey.
    I done double sucking the Cows for a few years when the calf price was reasonable and you could get a good quality calf, I think that left me the most profit but that was an awful lot of hardship with Cows refusing the calves to them going full mental and even refusing there own calves! but at least I wasn't down at the local shop wondering should I put in a fiver less petrol into the Car this week.
    I've done the Teagasc and had some young fella with his calculator telling me about reseeding, AI, new sheds and expansion. I told him I've been there done that, spent that 20 years tending plasterers on the building to pay for the land and sheds. Work of an Ape.
    A few years back you could justify working and Sucklers but not now.
    It still boils down to the margins and with my current Suckler system I'd need 3 times the amount to make anything near what an ordinary job would pay.
    The SFP has only gone on the opposite direction, I'm getting less now with the cuts to my unit values.
    As you can tell by now I'm fairly deluded by the system, but disappointed that so many seem to be in the same boat and theirs no real alternatives.


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    #38
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If you were selling the calves you bought at 6-7 months you are wasting you time. Calves have to be carried to 16 months plus to leave a margin.

    I seen a few lads with suckler's giving CSL es a try and mainly they fall down on management skills. Calves are not given the same priority as suckler's and the management of them is totally different to suckler's. A good few lads get the calf to 4 months and then more or less let them fend for themselves in a bit of a paddock near the house that often carries a large worm Infestation and has poor grass on it.

    If you are doing calves they need priority, fresh grass at least every week and dosed every 6-8 weeks maybe even more often earlier

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #39
    Anto_Meath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If you were selling the calves you bought at 6-7 months you are wasting you time. Calves have to be carried to 16 months plus to leave a margin.

    I seen a few lads with suckler's giving CSL es a try and mainly they fall down on management skills. Calves are not given the same priority as suckler's and the management of them is totally different to suckler's. A good few lads get the calf to 4 months and then more or less let them fend for themselves in a bit of a paddock near the house that often carries a large worm Infestation and has poor grass on it.

    If you are doing calves they need priority, fresh grass at least every week and dosed every 6-8 weeks maybe even more often earlier

    Very true, bucket fed calves need attention every day & because of this I find they take more care than sucklers. I rear around 20 a year, along with 20 sucklers. The bucket feds need more regular dosing, plus plenty of minerals as they are missing it from their mothers milk. Good fresh grass, but not too good of quality grass as that runs through them and about a kg of meal every day. I do mine well and it pays plus the kids love helping me with them. A friend of mine who is a very good suckler farmer reared calves this last two years, he tells me he will never do it again as there is always something to be done with them. Where as with the sucklers the work finishes in April and then a few days around weaning / sheding time. Plus cattle with FR breeding in them eat alot more feed to put on every kg of beef, it's in the genitics to produce milk not beef.


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    #40
    Dickie10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    we had 17-20 sucklers for a few years after a dodge bullock, kept at it from 2009-18 then slaughtered the bull that summer when he was 9 year old, couldnt justify it, weanling and yearling to beef now. buy store lambs and up the ewes numbers


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    #41
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,690 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    we had 17-20 sucklers for a few years after a dodge bullock, kept at it from 2009-18 then slaughtered the bull that summer when he was 9 year old, couldnt justify it, weanling and yearling to beef now. buy store lambs and up the ewes numbers

    Interested to know have many gone from sucklers to weanling - beef. Does it leave any more for you? You don’t have the calving, horninb, tagging or weaning


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    #42
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,767 ✭✭✭893bet


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Interested to know have many gone from sucklers to weanling - beef. Does it leave any more for you? You don’t have the calving, horninb, tagging or weaning

    No but you will carry twice to three times as many cattle for the same gross gross profit. Have more dosing to do. More chance of a sick animal. More chance of a wild animal. More chance of disease importation. More days at the mart or where ever to buy and sell.

    I don’t think any beef system is consistently significantly better than another. But sucklers are definitely a vocation.


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    #43
    morphy87
    Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭morphy87


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    If you were selling the calves you bought at 6-7 months you are wasting you time. Calves have to be carried to 16 months plus to leave a margin.

    I seen a few lads with suckler's giving CSL es a try and mainly they fall down on management skills. Calves are not given the same priority as suckler's and the management of them is totally different to suckler's. A good few lads get the calf to 4 months and then more or less let them fend for themselves in a bit of a paddock near the house that often carries a large worm Infestation and has poor grass on it.

    If you are doing calves they need priority, fresh grass at least every week and dosed every 6-8 weeks maybe even more often earlier

    A friend has 19 acres, good land he is currently reseeding it, he was thinking of rearing calf’s, if this was divided right and properly fertilized would he graze 20 calf’s and 20 yearlings? He will be cutting silage elsewhere


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    #44
    cute geoge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    I have 10 strong calves on about 2 1/2 acres no ration and keeping it well cliped and I backfence anything they have eaten and move to fresh pick .You would work away this time of year but calves and yierlings growing will eat extra as they grow .I would say 20 calves would need 10 acres in the back end


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    #45
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    morphy87 wrote: »
    A friend has 19 acres, good land he is currently reseeding it, he was thinking of rearing calf’s, if this was divided right and properly fertilized would he graze 20 calf’s and 20 yearlings? He will be cutting silage elsewhere

    I say nearer 30 if he is selling them as stores. He should start offloading some stores in July/August to balance the grass. From March-late June calves will be eating little grass. Even yearlings compared to cows eat no grass

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #46
    grassroot1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭grassroot1


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Ya I agree about those two things idiots, I say if you added there total number of brain cells you would struggle to get to two between them. They are just both old men that have not moved with the times.

    Do you not think recoupling would re balance payments for those not farming in the reference years?


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    #47
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Jjameson wrote: »
    I perceived suckler bred cattle to be better value than my usual middle of the road mix of fr and frx
    bullocks last year and while financially I was correct in the sums the little extra left isn’t wort a ****e, the temperament of these hoors leaves it just not worth it.
    Every time I go do anything with them there’s drama!
    I supposed they do focus your mind on prayer!!
    “Please God don’t let him jump that”
    Ect....

    The few goms I see pictured in the ifj looking to couple the few Bob we get handy from Europe to these hoors of animals for the benefit of a beef processing cartel should be sectioned.

    I can relate to that.
    The year we were changeing over to sheep it took me five weeks to get in the last batch of eighteen month old bullocks into the pen.
    The bull that bred them could never be tested, he'd never let you touch him and wouldn't go into the crush..... otherwise he was alright, wouldn't challenge you or the dogs or anything like that....... provided you didn't corner him


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    #48
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    wrangler wrote: »
    I can relate to that.
    The year we were changeing over to sheep it took me five weeks to get in the last batch of eighteen month old bullocks into the pen.
    The bull that bred them could never be tested, he'd never let you touch him and wouldn't go into the crush..... otherwise he was alright, wouldn't challenge you or the dogs or anything like that....... provided you didn't corner him

    +1
    We managed to coax our lot into the yard a month ago and load 5 for the mart. Lad who took them in for me said one of them cleared a pen in the mart. They looked quiet on martbid, got a few bids so I didn't have to bring them home again. Haven't heard anything since so I'm guessing they haven't broke across the Shannon yet as the mart was on the far side.

    Every generation is getting madder, they're fine with just me, but trying to do anything needs to be well thought out beforehand. Moved a bunch yesterday and a day old calf took off at a tangent under electric fences.......I'll keep ye posted;).

    I think part of the problem with wild cattle is they're just not used to humans.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #49
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    blue5000 wrote: »
    I think part of the problem with wild cattle is they're just not used to humans.

    Totally agree, also no harm getting someone else to walk through them every so often
    That way they don’t get spooked when the see someone else


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    #50
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,767 ✭✭✭893bet


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    Totally agree, also no harm getting someone else to walk through them every so often
    That way they don’t get spooked when the see someone else

    If working off farm you just don’t get to spend the same amount of time with cattle also.


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    #51
    Charolois 19
    Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭Charolois 19


    Do ye think the more you have the wilder they might be? Was thinking about this before, I've a small herd, on a smaller sized farm, walk through them every day, ya can pet them, a whistle is all you need and they come running, will walk into the yard behind me, most of them will eat bread or Ash leaves out of my hand, on a bigger farm with more numbers sure it would be impossible to be in that kinda contact with big numbers, they not used to handling or close human contact, even found with a flighty one bought in she seems to settle down when she sees the rest of them coming up to me and that, could be wrong just was thinking to myself or what's others experience of smaller vrs bigger herds in temperament?


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    #52
    Hard Knocks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭Hard Knocks


    893bet wrote: »
    If working off farm you just don’t get to spend the same amount of time with cattle also.

    A few minutes every day is all it needs


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    #53
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,196 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    grassroot1 wrote: »

    Do you not think recoupling would re balance payments for those not farming in the reference years?
    No it will trap farmers into stocking suckler's to draw down money. Yes for some it's more money but then we end up over producing beef for the processor's. The dairy X stock will still be there the Suckler numbers just add to them. As well look at lamb it has never been more profitable. Even hill lamb is coming back into vogue with store/ spring finished hogget prices. A 10 euro/ head and every lad will be keeping a few extra on mountains and next thing we have over supply. The day suckler numbers drop is the day there will be real money in beef again


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    A few minutes every day is all it needs

    I disagree totally. I go through my stick mist days. It's mostly Fr/ AA and HE. But if you have a few LM, Blondes, Salers etc they are the ones that will break a wire when you are using string or tape to move them. There the one that is always at the back of the bunch, the lad that will get stranded in a paddock after all the rest come out, the one that is jumping in the crush or sticks his head under the lad in front and will not come back so you can read his number.

    There the one that if you have them cornered will charge through you

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #54
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,767 ✭✭✭893bet


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    A few minutes every day is all it needs

    I don’t think so. Takes a lot more for properly quiet cattle. Takes proper walking through stock. Handling in the shed in the winter. Bucket feeding a poor milker in the field etc. Proper daily contact.

    Plus breeding. One thing I have noticed from icbf is how accurate docility ratings can be.


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    #55
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭minerleague


    blue5000 wrote: »
    +1
    We managed to coax our lot into the yard a month ago and load 5 for the mart. Lad who took them in for me said one of them cleared a pen in the mart. They looked quiet on martbid, got a few bids so I didn't have to bring them home again. Haven't heard anything since so I'm guessing they haven't broke across the Shannon yet as the mart was on the far side.

    Every generation is getting madder, they're fine with just me, but trying to do anything needs to be well thought out beforehand. Moved a bunch yesterday and a day old calf took off at a tangent under electric fences.......I'll keep ye posted;).

    I think part of the problem with wild cattle is they're just not used to humans.

    I would have agreed strongly with last part until i changed bull 2 years ago. Had previous Lim bull for 10 years ( fine calves all calm even in yard) New bulls calves fine out the field but pens, crush or even trying to get them in is a lot of trouble. I still herd cattle same as before so it cant be that.


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    #56
    Dickie10
    Registered Users Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Interested to know have many gone from sucklers to weanling - beef. Does it leave any more for you? You don’t have the calving, horninb, tagging or weaning

    id never calve another cow, some hardship if your counting your time, probably more profit when you take in less feeding, less vet bills, less straw, work tagging, dehorning , weaninig the calf, less dosing as young claves, dead calves , sections, empty cows etc, horrible work, you have 150 ewes lambed in a month.


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    #57
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Easten wrote: »
    Hard to know what to do, I've tried bits of them other systems like bucket calf rearing but that was a waste of effort for me. Its fair bad to be in the seller box of the mart with 20 hereford which are really no more than whitehead jersey.
    I done double sucking the Cows for a few years when the calf price was reasonable and you could get a good quality calf, I think that left me the most profit but that was an awful lot of hardship with Cows refusing the calves to them going full mental and even refusing there own calves! but at least I wasn't down at the local shop wondering should I put in a fiver less petrol into the Car this week.
    I've done the Teagasc and had some young fella with his calculator telling me about reseeding, AI, new sheds and expansion. I told him I've been there done that, spent that 20 years tending plasterers on the building to pay for the land and sheds. Work of an Ape.
    A few years back you could justify working and Sucklers but not now.
    It still boils down to the margins and with my current Suckler system I'd need 3 times the amount to make anything near what an ordinary job would pay.
    The SFP has only gone on the opposite direction, I'm getting less now with the cuts to my unit values.
    As you can tell by now I'm fairly deluded by the system, but disappointed that so many seem to be in the same boat and theirs no real alternatives.

    About 12 -14 years ago I had a bord bia inspection, the inspector ( young progressive type farmer ) was pointing out all I was doing wrong ( not stocked heavy enough, fields not sprayed or reseeded, more fertilizer and sheds needed etc) Now in fairness he was doing all these things himself , AI BB bulls for export market and all the rest. Found out after he leased out the farm and went working 9-5 3 years afterwards ( vet bills , bad weather, sick calves etc)


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    #58
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    blue5000 wrote: »
    +1
    We managed to coax our lot into the yard a month ago and load 5 for the mart. Lad who took them in for me said one of them cleared a pen in the mart. They looked quiet on martbid, got a few bids so I didn't have to bring them home again. Haven't heard anything since so I'm guessing they haven't broke across the Shannon yet as the mart was on the far side.

    Every generation is getting madder, they're fine with just me, but trying to do anything needs to be well thought out beforehand. Moved a bunch yesterday and a day old calf took off at a tangent under electric fences.......I'll keep ye posted;).

    I think part of the problem with wild cattle is they're just not used to humans.

    I'd agree that suckler stock seem to be getting wilder each year, whether it's down to (lack of) handling, genetics or other I don't know. I encounter a lot of stock weekly and even the "wild" cattle seem to be getting worse and worse annually, some of them are approaching unmanageable tbh. They're not usually as bad when at home in a stable environment but when brought to a mart or other strange setup they go cracked entirely.

    It's a bad sign when a calf a day or 2 old is flighty, there usually fairly docile for the first few days while they figure out what's what in the world. Anything that's wild from the get go usually turns out to be a total lunatic as time goes on in my experience.

    A neighbour had a bull calf with Spastic paresis a few year's back and due to his condition he was fattened and slaughtered as a beef bull. The bull in question was demented wild and would start trembling with fear when approached and attempt to charge when cornered. The cow he was bred out of is a quiet animal and calved that particular calf outside in late spring. Her owner went down the field in a few hours after she calved to throw an eye on both cow and calf. He couldn't find the calf and started searching through an area of rushes and eventually came across the sleeping calf. As soon as the calf noticed him he seemingly let a bellow and took off through the rushes and nearby hedge and finished up in the adjoining field, remember he was only a few hours old at this stage. My neighbour said he knew straight away that the calf would always be a wild hoor and he was 100% right in that assumption.


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    #59
    dh1985
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭dh1985


    Auld lad would walk through the cattle and spend decent amount of time with them daily. 95% as quiet as lambs. The rest would still be manageable and follow you if called. Work a paddock system here and think it has a lot to do with it as well as the handling. They would knock you over alright but it would be looking for a scratch is all.


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    #60
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,119 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Greyside's crowd will be doing eye tests on calves shortly. :pac:

    Cattle can't roll their eyes like humans can apparently.
    I wonder is eye muscle linked to docility?
    The actual eye not rib eye muscle.


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    #61
    SuperTeeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭SuperTeeJay


    Hard Knocks wrote: »
    A few minutes every day is all it needs

    Correct.It's all about the way they are handled from birth.Calves here born inside will always be quiet as they are used to close human contact twice daily.Dosent matter what breed they are.Salers/lims cows are our quietest cows here.The odd cow that calves in April/May their calves will not be as quiet due to less contact.


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