Sweden avoiding lockdown

charlie14 · 18-02-2021 7:27pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I'm actually not suggesting that. What is different is that in Sweden day-to-day health policy is much more devolved to the institutions. There are also constitutional restraints on what politicians can do.

My understanding was that all health care decisions relating to the pandemic were in the hand of the Public Health Authority until devolving to the local authorities in October when they then starting introducing their own restrictions and recommendations.

As already mentioned by the incredible pudding, parliament sat in emergency session over Christmas to introduce new legislation to deal with the pandemic, but that us basically are the same legislation they had under the Coronavirus Act from early 2020 that the government allowed to lapse at the end of June when they were not renewed

Bit cynical · 18-02-2021 7:32pm

charlie14 wrote: »

My understanding was that all health care decisions relating to the pandemic were in the hand of the Public Health Authority until devolving to the local authorities in October when they then starting introducing their own restrictions and recommendations.

Yes, however the point I was trying to make is that politicians have tended to take much more of a back seat with regard to the pandemic in Sweden than in other countries. Possibly someone living in Sweden could correct me here if I am wrong on this point.

It is the prominence of politicians in Ireland and other countries, I would suggest, that leads to the stop-start cycle we have seen and that in many countries has led to much higher deaths than Sweden.

sheepysheep · 18-02-2021 7:35pm

n

charlie14 wrote: »

Will you ever get over yourself.
You found the Economist report and after reading the first section did your own analysis. I read it through and the analysis you did relating to Sweden to fit your narrative is not what the report says in relation to Sweden. Simple as that.

The Economist did not compare countries on a European wide basis. It did so based on geography and that Covid was more severe going eastwards.
Of the four regions the report noted that for Northern Europe Sweden`s excess Covid deaths were an "exception" to all other countries in the region. Exactly what many here have been saying for a long time. Theu posted graphs which clearly show how much of an "exception".

If you wish to run around Europe or the rest of the world finding countries to suit your narrative, away with you. But to attempt to do so based on the Economist report, and attempting to say that if we should all used or imagination we would see what the report really meant to show, is so blatantly dishonest at this stage it`s comic farce.

Congratulations. Endless deflection, Strawmen, and bad science.

You managed to fit 4 Strawmen and 1 Logical Fallacy into that piece.

Strawman 1: I read the whole report not the first paragraph as you say.

Strawman 2: No Narrative. I have clearly stated that the report clearly shows that Sweden excess deaths are poor compared to Northern Europe and better than 15 other countries in Europe.

Strawman3: I'm nor running around Europe. I'm posting all excess death data available for Europe and comparing the results for all of Europe.

Strawman4: No one was requested to use their imagination. Simply look at data.

Logical fallacy: Your continued assertion that Sweden can only be compared to Northern Europe.

Bad Science. Everything.

You were asked to provide a scientific premises for this. The economist report would only be an implementation of the premise if one exists.

As you have held this opinion for months I'm sure you will have plenty of citeable reports at hand.

Thankfully, you've given up on 'commonality' whatever that was.

charlie14 · 18-02-2021 8:13pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

n

Congratulations. Endless deflection, Strawmen, and bad science.

You managed to fit 4 Strawmen and 1 Logical Fallacy into that piece.

Strawman 1: I read the whole report not the first paragraph as you say.

Strawman 2: No Narrative. I have clearly stated that the report clearly shows that Sweden excess deaths are poor compared to Northern Europe and better than 15 other countries in Europe.

Strawman3: I'm nor running around Europe. I'm posting all excess death data available for Europe and comparing the results for all of Europe.

Strawman4: No one was requested to use their imagination. Simply look at data.

Logical fallacy: Your continued assertion that Sweden can only be compared to Northern Europe.

Bad Science. Everything.

You were asked to provide a scientific premises for this. The economist report would only be an implementation of the premise if one exists.

As you have held this opinion for months I'm sure you will have plenty of citeable reports at hand.

Thankfully, you've given up on 'commonality' whatever that was.

1. In which case you choose to ignore what the report actually says when making comparisons on Sweden`s excess Covid deaths

2. The report did not make any comparison to any country other than those of Northern Europe where it noted them as an "exception"

3. You have been running around Europe comparisons other countries to Sweden that suits your narrative using a report that did not do that.

4. The data in the report is self explanatory. The data is what it is. The report covers four areas of Europe based on geography and the severity of Covid moving eastwards. For Northern Europe it notes Sweden`s excess deaths as "an exception" and illustrates by just how much of "an exception".

Bad posting attempting to portray a report saying something it clearly does not and attempting to making comparisons it does not.

Why would I need to provide a scientific premise quoting a report you post when you are actually the one attempting to portray the report as saying something it clearly does not.

In this instance commonality would be the geographical area of Northern Europe and the same severity of the Coronavirus where the report states it was more severe travelling Eastwards in Europe

charlie14 · 18-02-2021 8:25pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

Yes, however the point I was trying to make is that politicians have tended to take much more of a back seat with regard to the pandemic in Sweden than in other countries. Possibly someone living in Sweden could correct me here if I am wrong on this point.

It is the prominence of politicians in Ireland and other countries, I would suggest, that leads to the stop-start cycle we have seen and that in many countries has led to much higher deaths than Sweden.

That was the case in Sweden up until the regional authorities got the power to make their own decisions. That is really what forced Sweden`s politicians to finally act and has resulted in the Public Health Authority being largely sidelined from sole decision making.

I am no fan of Sweden`s PHA for obvious reasons, but I would have a small degree of sympathy for them. With the original strategy the government was happy to stand well back. If it had worked they would have been first in to claim credit, otherwise it was all the fault of the PHA as we had no power to act etc.etc. The devolving of power to the local authorities changed all that and forced the government to act.

charlie14 · 18-02-2021 8:32pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

Yes, Their ICU and death stats are very distinctly downward. I don't believe that one will be implemented and I'm not advocating for one.

I would see a lockdown there now however as being distinctly different to those in W Europe for the last year. By April, with the end of winter, the longer days, vaccines numbers increasing daily and whatever herd immunity already exists no second lockdown would ever be necessary.

Basically, I'm hoping for a distinct change in mood music over the next 6 weeks regarding this pandemic.

Sounds very much like that old tune that was being played here when Uppsala back in October announced it was imposing it`s own local lockdown measures.

When is a lockdown not a lockdown ? When it`s in Sweden

sheepysheep · 18-02-2021 8:42pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Why would I need to provide a scientific premise quoting a report you post when you are actually the one attempting to portray the report as saying something it clearly does not.

Can you provide any quote in the report which explicitly declares that Sweden cannot be compared with all of Europe? Yes/No.

If Yes, please provide it.

If No, then it is only your assumption that Sweden cannot be compared with Europe. Because you don't respect science you'll go with deflection and assumption.

However, if you could provide the research report upon which you based your pre-Economist report opinion please enlighten us all.

I'm not expecting any report from you btw. Unless you have something from The Sun.

BTW this is a report which you have consistently refused to acknowledge which clearly shows that Sweden can be compared with the EU27 on a load of matters.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/state/docs/2018_healthatglance_rep_en.pdf

Try and address this report this time and please debunk its OECD veracity.

sheepysheep · 18-02-2021 8:44pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Sounds very much like that old tune that was being played here when Uppsala back in October announced it was imposing it`s own local lockdown measures.

When is a lockdown not a lockdown ? When it`s in Sweden

Well, you're declared it to be in lockdown for months.

However, someone else just posted a report that it might be going into lockdown soon.

Can't be both.

Boggles · 18-02-2021 8:57pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with that. Their daily case rate has leveled off after falling from a peak during the Christmas period. It is possibly even rising slightly but this is hard to say. However the worst of winter will be over soon and with that cases will naturally begin to fall.

Cases are up 25% in Stockholm the past couple of weeks.

Their 7 day moving average is definitely upward.

There is a big snow festival of sorts happening early March, the authorities have flagged it as a potential super spreader event.

sheepysheep · 18-02-2021 9:02pm

Boggles wrote: »

Cases are up 25% in Stockholm the past couple of weeks.

Their 7 day moving average is definitely upward.

There is a big snow festival of sorts happening early March, the authorities have flagged it as a potential super spreader event.

There's a bit of an uptick alright but ICU admissions, deaths on the downward slope.

This site does a good graph of all three.

https://www.covid19insweden.com/en/

Boggles · 18-02-2021 9:26pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

There's a bit of an uptick alright but ICU admissions, deaths on the downward slope.

There is always a lag of weeks.

If you are judging what may happen on current hospitalizations you are doing it wrong.

Belgium tried to do that way and they overwhelmed their ICU's.

It's the people in charge over there who are talking about the start of a third wave, it's not paper talk, the infection rate backs it up.

It's been blamed on fatigue with restrictions.

That's the thing about restrictions, fatigue will set it no matter what they are.

Largely Voluntary or Largely Enforced.

sheepysheep · 18-02-2021 10:35pm

Boggles wrote: »

There is always a lag of weeks.

If you are judging what may happen on current hospitalizations you are doing it wrong.

Belgium tried to do that way and they overwhelmed their ICU's.

It's the people in charge over there who are talking about the start of a third wave, it's not paper talk, the infection rate backs it up.

It's been blamed on fatigue with restrictions.

That's the thing about restrictions, fatigue will set it no matter what they are.

Largely Voluntary or Largely Enforced.

Doesn't look like their planning any change yet anyway.

We'll have to wait and see how the S.A variant plays out.

STOCKHOLM, Feb 17 (Reuters) - Sweden's government on Thursday proposed expanding its legal powers to close businesses and shut parts of society should a third wave of the novel coronavirus hit the country, though it said it saw no need to impose the curbs as yet.

Sweden has avoided the kind of strict lockdowns adopted across much of Europe since last spring, but has gradually tightened restrictions, especially after infections surged in autumn last year.

Parliament has already passed a pandemic law to give authorities widespread powers to shut malls and shopping centres, but the government said it now wanted to be able to close hairdressers, gyms and other businesses should Sweden be hit by a new surge in COVID-19 infections

"The decision today is not that we are going to shut down Sweden, but that we are giving ourselves the tools to respond should such a situation develop," Health and Social Affairs Minister Lena Hallengren told a news conference.

Worries about a third wave have risen in recent days as the rate of new infections has inched higher after falling since the end of last year.

Sweden has also seen an increase in the so-called British mutation of the virus, thought to be more contagious than other variants, and vaccinations has been slow to ramp up amid delivery delays.

Hallengren said the government might need to act quickly, even though the current increase in new cases did not warrant it. "Currently, that is not our judgement, but clearly we are not planning to wait until it is too late," she added.

Sweden, with a population of around 10 million, has registered more than 615,000 COVID cases and over 12,400 deaths, a rate per capita many times higher than that of its Nordic neighbours, but lower than several European countries that opted for lockdowns.

https://news.trust.org/item/20210217080646-qw4xm

charlie14 · 18-02-2021 11:35pm

sheepysheep wrote: »

Well, you're declared it to be in lockdown for months.

However, someone else just posted a report that it might be going into lockdown soon.

Can't be both.

There is no universal definition of lockdown, just different levels. Ireland for example has 5 levels.
Uppsala declared it was using local lockdown back in October. Other regions followed Uppsala`s example shortly afterwards.
What the Swedish government are now talking about the possible need for are just a stricter level. It sounds more or less the same as Ireland`s level 5.

sheepysheep · 19-02-2021 1:12am

charlie14 wrote: »

There is no universal definition of lockdown, just different levels.

Yes, You're correct there. Sweden has always had some type restrictions right from the start.

charlie14 · 19-02-2021 1:36am

sheepysheep wrote: »

Yes, You're correct there. Sweden has always had some type restrictions right from the start.

I didn`t say restrictions. I specifically said lockdown.
You just` childishly cut my post from all of 3 lines to 1 to make it appear otherwise.

charlie14 · 19-02-2021 1:53am

sheepysheep wrote: »

Can you provide any quote in the report which explicitly declares that Sweden cannot be compared with all of Europe? Yes/No.

If Yes, please provide it.

If No, then it is only your assumption that Sweden cannot be compared with Europe. Because you don't respect science you'll go with deflection and assumption.

However, if you could provide the research report upon which you based your pre-Economist report opinion please enlighten us all.

I'm not expecting any report from you btw. Unless you have something from The Sun.

BTW this is a report which you have consistently refused to acknowledge which clearly shows that Sweden can be compared with the EU27 on a load of matters.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/state/docs/2018_healthatglance_rep_en.pdf

Try and address this report this time and please debunk its OECD veracity.

In all the time I have been on Boards.ie I can honestly say I have never engaged with a poster whose entire stock-in-trade is waffle, attempts at "look over there" distractions and a determination not to answer anything they are asked.
The Economist report you posted only compares Sweden with the rest of Northern Europe. As I said earlier, if you wish to hoop around finding countries that suit your narrative away with you. Just stop attempting to pretend that is what the report does.

Unless you are pre pubescent perhaps you should consider dropping the childish little digs. If you are then I understand. I coach under 12`s

"However, if you could provide the research report upon which you based your pre-Economist report please enlighten us all".

I am not expression any "pre-Economist report" opinion .i am simply pointing out what the report actually states in relation to Sweden. You on the other hand are attempting to make selective comparisons that fit with your narrative which the report does not do.
The only opinion I have on the report is that it backs up what many here have been saying for a long time. That when it comes to Sweden the comparisons are more applicable to it`s northern neighbours.

On your link. I have mentioned your attempts at" look over there" distractions on numerous occasions, so you should know by now it`s not a game I play.

DylanJM · 20-02-2021 12:08pm

charlie14 wrote: »

There is no universal definition of lockdown, just different levels. Ireland for example has 5 levels.
Uppsala declared it was using local lockdown back in October. Other regions followed Uppsala`s example shortly afterwards.
What the Swedish government are now talking about the possible need for are just a stricter level. It sounds more or less the same as Ireland`s level 5.

I think if Sweden managed to avoid going into full lockdown in after Christmas I think it's unlikely they will between now and the summer. Their cases are pretty flat the last 30 days at a 7 day average of 3,000ish and are looking to have to full adult population vaccinated by end of June.

99nsr125 · 20-02-2021 3:19pm

CNN comparing lockdown to no lockdown between California and Florida

Both have similar statistics despite Florida having significantly higher amounts of older people and only light restrictions

Just quoted a WSJ article citing underlying nationwide immunity of 55%

charlie14 · 20-02-2021 8:03pm

99nsr125 wrote: »

CNN comparing lockdown to no lockdown between California and Florida

Both have similar statistics despite Florida having significantly higher amounts of older people and only light restrictions

Just quoted a WSJ article citing underlying nationwide immunity of 55%

What we do know is by April the US expect to have used 250 million vaccines vaccines with 150 million people vaccinated. Population of the US is 331 million so that 150 million is 46%. To date there have been 28 million confirmed cases, 8.5% of the population. By April 46% will have immunity from vaccines with a possible extra 8.5% being immune due to them being infected even if it is unknown how long that immunity lasts.

Anything else is just conjecture for the reason that the author states himself. In conversation with medical experts they have often dismissed natural immunity because lack of data.

What the author did to reach his 55% immunity figure was take the confirmed case number of 28 million, assume the number infected is 6.5 times higher, multiplied by 650% and got 182 mllion. 55% of the population.
Anywhere we have seen assumed infections being used to predict natural immunity they have been incorrect.

For Manaus, one of the hardest hit areas of Brazil, researchers predicted the same with only a 50% increase of confirmed cases to come up with their infection rate and their belief they had reached herd immunity. Subsequent events show they hadn`t

The article even mentioned Sweden`s Karolinska Institute where presumed infection rates were used predicting herd immunity for Stockholm and later for high immunity levels for Sweden. I don`t think there can be any questions on how either of those worked out at this stage.

That author is entitled to his opinion, but I cannot see anywhere, other than perhaps a very few countries ruled by nutcases going for natural herd immunity rather than herd immunity through vaccination.

charlie14 · 20-02-2021 8:29pm

DylanJM wrote: »

I think if Sweden managed to avoid going into full lockdown in after Christmas I think it's unlikely they will between now and the summer. Their cases are pretty flat the last 30 days at a 7 day average of 3,000ish and are looking to have to full adult population vaccinated by end of June.

With them having a side deal with AZ I was expecting Sweden to be one of the front runners in vaccinations, but like everywhere else the AZ vaccine has caused them problems and they are only at the same level of vaccinations as Ireland, so I would have my doubts on the end of June.

Sweden may or may not go into full lockdown but there does seem to be very genuine worries that new cases only reaching a level stalled and are now on the increase according to their authorities.
Compliance by their own admission is not what it was and the level of mask wearing is very low. If they are going to full lockdown I would not see it being before March 11th. so in the meatime the expressions of concern may result in the case numbers dropping.

wakka12 · 21-02-2021 3:28am

99nsr125 wrote: »

CNN comparing lockdown to no lockdown between California and Florida

Both have similar statistics despite Florida having significantly higher amounts of older people and only light restrictions

Just quoted a WSJ article citing underlying nationwide immunity of 55%

That seems extremely unlikely, there are countries like Mexico and Russia with literally double the excess deaths of USA per capita. Are we to believe these countries have seen near 100% rate of infection?

Real Donald Trump · 21-02-2021 3:33am

99nsr125 wrote: »

CNN comparing lockdown to no lockdown between California and Florida

Both have similar statistics despite Florida having significantly higher amounts of older people and only light restrictions

Just quoted a WSJ article citing underlying nationwide immunity of 55%

CNN removed the daily death tracker the day after Biden was inaugurated, they only put it up now when they are talking about Covid news, before that it was up 24/7 , interesting :rolleyes: disgrace of a network tbh

biko · 21-02-2021 1:12pm

DylanJM wrote: »

Why are Sweden only ever compared to their neighbors? How do they stack up against the rest of the EU?

Anthony Fauci, White House’s Coronavirus Task Force, agrees with me and some other posters here that Sweden should be compared to its neighbours

But I am not going to let Senator Paul get away with saying things that are cherry-picked data.
And he compared us to Sweden, and said, “Sweden let everybody get infected and they have much lower death rate than us.”

And I say, “Sir, with all due respect, you’re comparing apples and oranges, you should not be comparing Sweden with the United States, you should be comparing Sweden with demographically similar populations, like the Scandinavian countries such as Norway and Denmark.”

And Sweden has done much less well, particularly regarding deaths, compared to the other countries.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/why-anthony-fauci-happy-being-skunk-coronavirus-task-force

growleaves · 22-02-2021 12:46am

I'm reading a novel about the Cold War atm and this description of the Sino-Soviet split (from the Russian pov) reminds me of the attitude toward Sweden now:

Technical deviation of a Socialist partner

99nsr125 · 22-02-2021 1:04am

charlie14 wrote: »

What we do know is by April the US expect to have used 250 million vaccines vaccines with 150 million people vaccinated. Population of the US is 331 million so that 150 million is 46%. To date there have been 28 million confirmed cases, 8.5% of the population. By April 46% will have immunity from vaccines with a possible extra 8.5% being immune due to them being infected even if it is unknown how long that immunity lasts.

Anything else is just conjecture for the reason that the author states himself. In conversation with medical experts they have often dismissed natural immunity because lack of data.

What the author did to reach his 55% immunity figure was take the confirmed case number of 28 million, assume the number infected is 6.5 times higher, multiplied by 650% and got 182 mllion. 55% of the population.
Anywhere we have seen assumed infections being used to predict natural immunity they have been incorrect.

For Manaus, one of the hardest hit areas of Brazil, researchers predicted the same with only a 50% increase of confirmed cases to come up with their infection rate and their belief they had reached herd immunity. Subsequent events show they hadn`t

The article even mentioned Sweden`s Karolinska Institute where presumed infection rates were used predicting herd immunity for Stockholm and later for high immunity levels for Sweden. I don`t think there can be any questions on how either of those worked out at this stage.

That author is entitled to his opinion, but I cannot see anywhere, other than perhaps a very few countries ruled by nutcases going for natural herd immunity rather than herd immunity through vaccination.

So you spent all of those paragraphs not addressing the article or comparison between states, good job

"About 1 in 600 Americans has died of Covid-19, which translates to a population fatality rate of about 0.15%. The Covid-19 infection fatality rate is about 0.23%. These numbers indicate that roughly two-thirds of the U.S. population has had the infection."

99nsr125 · 22-02-2021 1:12am

wakka12 wrote: »

That seems extremely unlikely, there are countries like Mexico and Russia with literally double the excess deaths of USA per capita. Are we to believe these countries have seen near 100% rate of infection?

That's entirely possible but I didn't reference them. A particular country is far more homogeneous on every metric internally allowing better comparisons

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 3:42am

99nsr125 wrote: »

So you spent all of those paragraphs not addressing the article or comparison between states, good job

"About 1 in 600 Americans has died of Covid-19, which translates to a population fatality rate of about 0.15%. The Covid-19 infection fatality rate is about 0.23%. These numbers indicate that roughly two-thirds of the U.S. population has had the infection."

Two states that as the crow flies are 2,300 miles apart with coastlines on two different oceans. Tbh I have better for doing with my time than chasing you down another of your rabbit holes.Your herd immunity warren is more than enough.
Even on that you are now mixing your apples and your oranges where you do not seem to know the difference between IFR and CFR.

The WSJ opinion piece on natural herd immunity has nothing to do with infections. The author used case numbers, (and for reasons as mysterious as your "about 0.23%"), multiplied by 6.5.
Manaus went with 1.5 and were still wrong. Sweden used who knows what multiple and got it wrong for natural immunity for Stockholm and got it wrong on having a higher level of immunity nationally than others for this wave.

While using case numbers multiplied by whatever number these people feel will give them the number they wish to see is guesswork, it at least is a mathematical formula. One based on infections of "about 0.23%" is not mathematics. It`s magical thinking.

cnocbui · 22-02-2021 4:15am

Your posts singlehandedly comprise about a fifth of the total on this thread, but you don't have time. I have my doubts, but if you say so...

Ginger n Lemon · 22-02-2021 9:44am

cnocbui wrote: »

Your posts singlehandedly comprise about a fifth of the total on this thread, but you don't have time. I have my doubts, but if you say so...

:D:D

:pac:

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 12:14pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Your posts singlehandedly comprise about a fifth of the total on this thread, but you don't have time. I have my doubts, but if you say so...

If you have read any of my posts then you will know I do not play the "look over there" game of distracting from Sweden with posters who refuse to look at what is happening next door to Sweden.
Especially a posters whose main interest has always been naturally acquired herd immunity on a thread relating to Sweden.

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 12:23pm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

:D:D

:pac:

Every time I see a post of yours I get a chuckle myself.:)

With the volume of predictions and hero worshiping puff pieces you had here in the past, it`s amusing to remember that for all that effort you still could not get anything right.

:pac::pac::pac:

Ginger n Lemon · 22-02-2021 12:50pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Your posts singlehandedly comprise about a fifth of the total on this thread, but you don't have time. I have my doubts, but if you say so...

+ 2 more posts today minimum.

Hes on course for 2/5 of all posts in this thread being his. Talk about taking over the debate :pac:

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 1:46pm

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

+ 2 more posts today minimum.

Hes on course for 2/5 of all posts in this thread being his. Talk about taking over the debate :pac:

You were having a fair shot at attempting to take over this thread yourself until your little heroes were shown to have feet of clay and all your predictions were shown to be laughable.

Not surprisingly we haven`t seen much from you since. At least nothing of any value to the debate. :pac:

humberklog · 22-02-2021 3:35pm

charlie14 wrote: »

If you have read any of my posts then you will know I do not play the "look over there" game of distracting from Sweden with posters who refuse to look at what is happening next door to Sweden.
Especially a posters whose main interest has always been naturally acquired herd immunity on a thread relating to Sweden.

I don't think it's the case at all that there's a refusal by posters to consider Sweden in context with Scandinavian countries.
There is a cohort here that only want to phrase Sweden in a Scandanavian context. And while you say you're not a "look over there" merchant your posting comes across as "only look here".

It's a very myopic way of considering one country's response to a pandemic.

FintanMcluskey · 22-02-2021 3:56pm

Some hard hitting scenes in the below video guys

Similar to the opening scene in Saving Private Ryan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wQnR_JHjUU

Thankfully Ireland didn’t see scenes like that

We flattened that economic and mental well-being curve immediately

cnocbui · 22-02-2021 4:15pm

My god! There actually people alive in the world, living a life! When is the next plane? I want to leave this hole.

peter kern · 22-02-2021 4:25pm

cnocbui wrote: »

My god! There actually people alive in the world, living a life! When is the next plane? I want to leave this hole.

tomorrow at 12.25

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 5:03pm

humberklog wrote: »

I don't think it's the case at all that there's a refusal by posters to consider Sweden in context with Scandinavian countries.
There is a cohort here that only want to phrase Sweden in a Skandanavian contest. And while you say you're not a "look over there" merchant your posting comes across as "only look here".

It's a very myopic way of considering one country's response to a pandemic.

It`s more a case of see no evil with some here than myopia. Still posting merrily away as if Sweden`s herd immunity strategy was a roaring success

That "look over here" takes in a pretty wide area. The Economist report looked at Northern Europe and found Sweden`s excess deaths an "exception" compared to others in the region.

More apt imo than attempting to make comparisons to two U.S. states 2,300 miles apart with coastlines on two different oceans and somehow link them with a country in Northern Europe.

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 5:05pm

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Some hard hitting scenes in the below video guys

Similar to the opening scene in Saving Private Ryan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wQnR_JHjUU

Thankfully Ireland didn’t see scenes like that

We flattened that economic and mental well-being curve immediately

Thankfully we didn`t Fintan.

They really are crap at social distancing and mask wearing, although thankfully in spite of their Public Health Authority messing on face masks, the regional authorities are getting the message.
Economically Sweden is not projected to come out of this any better than anywhere else. But you already know that.

cnocbui · 22-02-2021 5:27pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Thankfully we didn`t Fintan.

They really are crap at social distancing and mask wearing, although thankfully in spite of their Public Health Authority messing on face masks, the regional authorities are getting the message.
Economically Sweden is not projected to come out of this any better than anywhere else. But you already know that.

Greater social distancing than I observed with secondary students here a few months ago, hanging around outside an Aldi and a Lidl, where the mask wearing was literally zero.

The Swedish government reported on Wednesday that it expects the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to grown by 3% in 2021, compared to 4.1% announced in September's report.

The underlying details of the publication revealed that the economy is now forecasted to contract by 2.9% in 2020. .

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/sweden-2021-gdp-growth-seen-at-30-vs-september-forecast-of-41-202012161212

New Zealand is 'projected' to take more than three times the economic hit Sweden is.

New Zealand's gross domestic product (GDP) is now seen contracting by 7.2% in the fiscal year March 2021, according to the NZ Institute of Economic Research (NZIER).
Key points

Consensus Forecasts for GDP have been revised up for the year to March 2021, as the New Zealand economy has turned out more resilient than expected.

The economy is likely to expand by 6.7% in the fiscal year of March 2022.

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/new-zealands-gdp-to-contract-72-in-fiscal-year-2021-nzier-202009140047

So you're spoofing again.

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 7:36pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Greater social distancing than I observed with secondary students here a few months ago, hanging around outside an Aldi and a Lidl, where the mask wearing was literally zero.

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/sweden-2021-gdp-growth-seen-at-30-vs-september-forecast-of-41-202012161212

New Zealand is 'projected' to take more than three times the economic hit Sweden is.

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/new-zealands-gdp-to-contract-72-in-fiscal-year-2021-nzier-202009140047

So you're spoofing again.

You went half way around the world to find that

Rather than accuse me of spoofing perhaps you should have read both links before posting.
Sweden`s GDP is now expected to grow by just 3% rather than the 4.1% forecast in September for 2021 after a 2.9% contraction for 2020. A real growth of just 0.1% by end of 2021.
While New Zealand`s GDP is expected to contract by 7.2%, within the year it is expected to expand by 6.7%. A contraction of just 0.5%

You may be one of those people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing, but for myself a country that has almost half the population of Sweden,with 2,357 cases and 26 deaths compared to Sweden`s 631,166 cases and 12,649 deaths, for a 0.6% difference in GDP, (if I was to put a price on a human life), would look like very good value.

Bit cynical · 22-02-2021 7:45pm

charlie14 wrote: »

They really are crap at social distancing and mask wearing, although thankfully in spite of their Public Health Authority messing on face masks, the regional authorities are getting the message.

I thought the pro-lockdown narrative about Sweden was that they didn't need enforced measures because the Swedes were naturally socially distancing and obeyed all the recommendations. This was the reason that they were mid-table for the EU and did not have the multiple of deaths earlier predicted.

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 7:57pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I thought the pro-lockdown narrative about Sweden was that they didn't need enforced measures because the Swedes were naturally socially distancing and obeyed all the recommendations. This was the reason that they were mid-table for the EU and did not have the multiple of deaths earlier predicted.

That was mainly the narrative from those who supported the Swedish strategy. That they were so good at following recommendations they would never need to use any level of lockdown.
If that video clip is anything to go by that was a fallacy.

cnocbui · 22-02-2021 8:01pm

charlie14 wrote: »

You went half way around the world to find that

Rather than accuse me of spoofing perhaps you should have read both links before posting.
Sweden`s GDP is now expected to grow by just 3% rather than the 4.1% forecast in September for 2021 after a 2.9% contraction for 2020. A real growth of just 0.1% by end of 2021.
While New Zealand`s GDP is expected to contract by 7.2%, within the year it is expected to expand by 6.7%. A contraction of just 0.5%

You may be one of those people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing, but for myself a country that has almost half the population of Sweden,with 2,357 cases and 26 deaths compared to Sweden`s 631,166 cases and 12,649 deaths, for a 0.6% difference in GDP, (if I was to put a price on a human life), would look like very good value.

I'm hoping to emigrate to NZ, so it's on my radar in terms of data. You are using your unique way of interpreting data again. Good to see you maintaining that consistency. Keep it up.

Knowing the price of things has proven profitable. If I didn't know the value of things, I wouldn't be looking to trade up by emigrating.

99nsr125 · 22-02-2021 8:05pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Two states that as the crow flies are 2,300 miles apart with coastlines on two different oceans..

But they are in the same country so what comparing one state to another in the *same * country doesn't credit time now. Is it because they don't share common health, education or resources, no wait . . .

The numbers don't stack up for you and that's particularly inconvenient. Intensely so now that the news is covering as I type the exploding waiting lists and the "tsunami" of medical pain ahead caused by lockdown.

charlie14 wrote: »

Tbh I have better for doing with my time chasing you down another of your rabbit holes

You mean comparing lockdown v no lockdown. That's the entire premise of the thread.

charlie14 wrote: »

Your herd immunity warren is more than enough.

Herd immunity is how we eventually live with Covid otherwise there is only ongoing imprisonment in your own home

charlie14 wrote: »

Even on that you are now mixing your apples and your oranges where you do not seem to know the difference between IFR and CFR.

You're painfully hilarious sometimes, the source for that quote is
"Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine"

Perhaps he is right and you are wrong.

charlie14 wrote: »

The WSJ opinion piece on natural herd immunity has nothing to do with infections. The author used case numbers, (and for reasons as mysterious as your "about 0.23%"), multiplied by 6.5.

Are you seriously saying, herd immunity, is not related to infections. That is so removed from reality as to be delusional.

The news just finished, quoting a million people will be on waiting lists a doubling of the numbers, do you know the mortality rate for waiting lists is aggregated at 1%. That'll be an excess death rate of 5,000 for years to come which is more than all the Covid deaths to date.

Years of this pain we've brought on ourselves, it's shameful

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 8:15pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm hoping to emigrate to NZ, so it's on my radar in terms of data. You are using your unique way of interpreting data again. Good to see you maintaining that consistency. Keep it up.

Knowing the price of things has proven profitable. If I didn't know the value of things, I wouldn't be looking to trade up by emigrating.

There was nothing unique about interpreting that data. Like practically all data it was just very basic mathematics.

For somebody that cannot wait to get out of Ireland because of lockdown measure, you better hope there is no other pandemics if you do get to NZ. Ireland`s is a teddy bears picnic compared to theirs.

charlie14 · 22-02-2021 8:49pm

99nsr125 wrote: »

Herd immunity is how we eventually live with Covid otherwise there is only ongoing imprisonment in your own home

You're painfully hilarious sometimes, the source for that quote is
"Dr. Makary is a professor at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine"

Perhaps he is right and you are wrong.

Are you seriously saying, herd immunity, is not related to infections. That is so removed from reality as to be delusional.

The news just finished, quoting a million people will be on waiting lists a doubling of the numbers, do you know the mortality rate for waiting lists is aggregated at 1%. That'll be an excess death rate of 5,000 for years to come which is more than all the Covid deaths to date.

Years of this pain we've brought on ourselves, it's shameful

Which herd immunity. Through vaccination or naturally acquired.?For me it`s not going to happen without vaccine.You on the other hand.....?

Dr.Makary admitted that even a majority of those in his own profession do not agree with him. Hard to blame them when his whole theory is based on taking case numbers and multiplying them by a factor of 6.5 with no explanation of where the 6.5 came from.

Your Dr Makary didn`t use infection numbers. He used case numbers.
So did Manaus, Sweden in two instances,and all multiplied with varying stab in the dark numbers and all got it wrong.

Btw, you talk a lot about infection numbers. Can you tell me what the infection rate for any country is, (and I`m not talking an "about" number), and how that number was arrived at ?

More guesswork on future deaths without even the basic understanding that in health care like everything else primary issues take preference over secondary issues. Sweden`s health care, like everywhere else, did not carry on as normal without being effected.

sheepysheep · 23-02-2021 5:43pm

charlie14 wrote: »

I didn`t say restrictions. I specifically said lockdown.
You just` childishly cut my post from all of 3 lines to 1 to make it appear otherwise.

I'd say many people would assume that I'd just cut 2 lines of crap.

sheepysheep · 23-02-2021 7:17pm

charlie14 wrote: »

In all the time I have been on Boards.ie I can honestly say I have never engaged with a poster whose entire stock-in-trade is waffle, attempts at "look over there" distractions and a determination not to answer anything they are asked.
The Economist report you posted only compares Sweden with the rest of Northern Europe. As I said earlier, if you wish to hoop around finding countries that suit your narrative away with you. Just stop attempting to pretend that is what the report does.

Unless you are pre pubescent perhaps you should consider dropping the childish little digs. If you are then I understand. I coach under 12`s

"However, if you could provide the research report upon which you based your pre-Economist report please enlighten us all".

I am not expression any "pre-Economist report" opinion .i am simply pointing out what the report actually states in relation to Sweden. You on the other hand are attempting to make selective comparisons that fit with your narrative which the report does not do.
The only opinion I have on the report is that it backs up what many here have been saying for a long time. That when it comes to Sweden the comparisons are more applicable to it`s northern neighbours.

On your link. I have mentioned your attempts at" look over there" distractions on numerous occasions, so you should know by now it`s not a game I play.

No waffle, very focused on the Data.

This is just more of your anti science alt-right fake news tactics. It's the shout louder and distract from the topic tactic people like you like to employ.

I've always answered any question, as far as I'm aware.

So, you were requested to provide a quote from the article that explicitly declared that Sweden cannot be compared to Europe.

Naturally you couldn't provide one, and, as I predicted, because you don't respect science, you went with deflection and assumption.

Also, as predicted, you provided no data to back up your claim.

The game you play is not looking at scientific data, because it doesn't suit your case, because you have no respect for science.

Strangely, though, you did look at the economist report I posted.

The OECD report which destroys your argument that Sweden cannot be compared to the rest of Europe, however, cannot be acknowledged, so defection is necessary.

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/state/docs/2018_healthatglance_rep_en.pdf

A man who compares Sweden to 3 other countries is making a selective comparison. Someone who is comparing Sweden to all of Europe is not.

What exactly is it that you teach under 12's? How to lie, cheat and blame the referee?

growleaves · 23-02-2021 8:24pm

Bit cynical wrote: »

I thought the pro-lockdown narrative about Sweden was that they didn't need enforced measures because the Swedes were naturally socially distancing and obeyed all the recommendations. This was the reason that they were mid-table for the EU and did not have the multiple of deaths earlier predicted.

Ah yes social distancing is 'Swedish culture', a Swede wouldn't dream of going near another Swede.

Er wait has that changed? *Hey look!*----> muh Nordic neighbours - Denmark, Finland, Norway, all the gang is here

Sweden avoiding lockdown

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