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Rio marathon champ tests postive for EPO

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13

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    #62
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    clickerquicklic wrote: »
    :D I was thinking the same myself everyone seems to be in violent agreement yet there seems to be tension :confused:

    Cycling is my sport. I love it and have a lifetime association with it. But when I hear a suggestion that because bike handling is a skill that somehow cycling does not benefit to the same extent as other sports I am reduced to tears. Cycling as with athletics is one of the sports where drugs can be the biggest game changers.


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    #63
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Drugs are a big game changer in any sport at the very highest level. The gains at those levels are so marginal that anything that gives even a slight advantage is huge.


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    #64
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    RuMan wrote: »
    Drugs are a big game changer in any sport at the very highest level. The gains at those levels are so marginal that anything that gives even a slight advantage is huge.

    Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.


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    #65
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    average_runner wrote: »
    Who test the tennis players in the Olympics?

    WADA in conjunction with the organisers, I believe.

    Well, WADA said half the planned tests in Rio didn't happen because of SNAFUs from anti-doping in Rio.

    But it's generally thought that it's very light touch in tennis.


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    #66
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    average_runner wrote: »
    We should really stop bringing other sports into it when an athlete gets caught.

    True.

    But what happens is when an athlete tests positive, people take the position that the sport has tested positive.

    And, in fairness, my countering that other sports are soft on testing doesn't help so I'll stop. But it just annoys me when people start saying some sports are dirty because people are being caught because the reality is they're working hard to catch them.


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    #67
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.


    I don't really agree. You are purely focusing on endurance but strength and recovery time improvements can make a massive difference in rugby for example.

    Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?


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    #68
    S.L.F.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.


    I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.


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    #69
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    RuMan wrote: »
    I don't really agree. You are purely focusing on endurance but strength and recovery time improvements can make a massive difference in rugby for example.

    Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

    Ok we'll agree to differ. I'm not arguing drugs have no benefit in any sport, just that they offer more in some. I won't stop believing that and others won't agree. Ne'er the twain shall meet.


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    #70
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users Posts: 24,552 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    S.L.F. wrote: »
    I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.

    Recovery to allow athletes to train harder is one element but different PEDs for different needs.


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    #71
    skyblue46
    Registered Users Posts: 4,807 ✭✭✭skyblue46


    S.L.F. wrote: »
    I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.

    Steroids and HGH offer benefits in one way, blood doping and EPO etc in another way.


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    #72
    S.L.F.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    This is kind of old but athletics isnt even in the top 5:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/06/29/what-sports-have-the-worst-doping-problems/


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    #73
    S.L.F.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭S.L.F.


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Recovery to allow athletes to train harder is one element but different PEDs for different needs.
    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Steroids and HGH offer benefits in one way, blood doping and EPO etc in another way.


    Yeah was thinking that afterwards alright but they're all taken mainly in training to build up the body but yes the EPO is needed during the race or something similar for the Oxegen edge.


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    #74
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    RuMan wrote: »
    Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

    Professionalism in rugby is only relatively new. Most of the differences can be put down to the fact that 30 years ago your average forward sat on his hole every day, smoked, had a poor diet and trained maybe twice a week.

    You can't compare then and now and come to the conclusion it's just drugs.


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    #75
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    average_runner wrote: »
    I just wonder why you picked Murray and not both my examples

    Well, because we all know that the Farrah hate has been done to death here regarding PEDs...


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    #76
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    RuMan wrote: »

    Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

    As already been addressed money and professionalism and an overall hunger and desire to push the boundaries easily explains the differences. It’s apparent in life, not just sport.


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    #77
    El Caballo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭El Caballo


    skyblue46 wrote: »
    Cycling is my sport. I love it and have a lifetime association with it. But when I hear a suggestion that because bike handling is a skill that somehow cycling does not benefit to the same extent as other sports I am reduced to tears. Cycling as with athletics is one of the sports where drugs can be the biggest game changers.

    It does not matter how big or small the perceived gains are, cheating is cheating and the comparison is Apple's to oranges. Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do much like taking a rider aka lance with a huge cycling economy and pump him full of EPO and see what you get... Even the variance of effectiveness range hugely across a single sport like Cycling. It doesn't matter how much benefit you get, it's the intention and disregard for the rules that make doping what it is no matter what sport it is.

    The hypocrisy I see here is the way it has been since the Russian scandal broke in 2014. Posters deflecting athletics problems on to sports that they are saying are deflecting. You never get anywhere with denial, just look at the IAAF.


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    #78
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    El Caballo wrote: »
    Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do .

    What can they do? Have you seen something that I haven't?


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    #79
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    El Caballo wrote: »
    It does not matter how big or small the perceived gains are, cheating is cheating and the comparison is Apple's to oranges. Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do much like taking a rider aka lance with a huge cycling economy and pump him full of EPO and see what you get... Even the variance of effectiveness range hugely across a single sport like Cycling. It doesn't matter how much benefit you get, it's the intention and disregard for the rules that make doping what it is no matter what sport it is.

    The hypocrisy I see here is the way it has been since the Russian scandal broke in 2014. Posters deflecting athletics problems on to sports that they are saying are deflecting. You never get anywhere with denial, just look at the IAAF.

    I don’t think it is deflecting. Speaking for myself I am very happy to discuss the problems in athletics. But when you get posters from other sports (which are just as doped) jumping in here saying athletics is 100% juiced, then I’m
    going to defend the sport.

    More seriously, I’ve heard of people saying they don’t want their kids doing athletics because of drugs, and would rather them do other sports like rugby, soccer, tennis, whatever. I have actually come across this. Should we just stand by and not stand up for our sport, and the fact that athletics only has more failed tests because it actually bothers to test?

    No problem when people call out problems in our sport. It’s when people do this, yet maintain other sports are clean, that I can’t deal with.


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    #80
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I don’t think it is deflecting. Speaking for myself I am very happy to discuss the problems in athletics. But when you get posters from other sports (which are just as doped) jumping in here saying athletics is 100% juiced, then I’m
    going to defend the sport.

    More seriously, I’ve heard of people saying they don’t want their kids doing athletics because of drugs, and would rather them do other sports like rugby, soccer, tennis, whatever. I have actually come across this. Should we just stand by and not stand up for our sport, and the fact that athletics only has more failed tests because it actually bothers to test?

    No problem when people call out problems in our sport. It’s when people do this, yet maintain other sports are clean, that I can’t deal with.


    Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

    All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.


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    #81
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

    It even sounds dumb...

    Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

    Always has been.

    Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."


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    #82
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    average_runner wrote: »
    Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

    All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.

    I did, because somebody who has no involvement in athletics jumped in at the start of the thread saying everyone in athletics is on drugs.


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    #83
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    average_runner wrote: »
    Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

    All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.

    Because he's tired hearing these ill informed lazy ass blanket complete generalizations being thrown around about the WHOLE sport.....


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    #84
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I did, because somebody who has no involvement in athletics jumped in at the start of the thread saying everyone in athletics is on drugs.


    Some one just said it was a poor excuse and they were right.


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    #85
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    walshb wrote: »
    Because he's tired hearing these ill informed lazy ass blanket complete generalizations being thrown around about the WHOLE sport.....


    That's fair enough but then the same generalizations are thrown around on the other sports in the same thread, so it achieves nothing but derails the thread.

    That's my 2 cents.


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    #86
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,589 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    average_runner wrote: »
    That's fair enough but then the same generalizations are thrown around on the other sports in the same thread, so it achieves nothing but derails the thread.

    That's my 2 cents.

    I see your point.....

    Anyway, personally I do believe that drugs and the temptation/benefits to use is more evident in certain sports compared to others.


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    #87
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    average_runner wrote: »
    Some one just said it was a poor excuse and they were right.

    Maybe look a post or two down.

    Anyway I’ve enough of this. I’ve training this evening, so I need to get that blood bag out of the fridge so I’m ready for this evening!


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    #88
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    walshb wrote: »
    I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

    It even sounds dumb...

    Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

    Always has been.

    Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."


    True, but some ex pro's have made statements hoping that their kids don't go down the road of professional athletics, marathon talk has a good podcast on it.


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    #89
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    walshb wrote: »
    I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

    It even sounds dumb...

    Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

    Always has been.

    Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."

    https://twitter.com/pth_c/status/918846893987426304


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    #90
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,845 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Maybe look a post or two down.

    Anyway I’ve enough of this. I’ve training this evening, so I need to get that blood bag out of the fridge so I’m ready for this evening!


    There is only 4 posts and one of them said does anyone believe any of the gold medals in the olympics etc are clean? Which is a fair point.


    Enjoy the session.


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    #91
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,469 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

    Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.

    I think you've made a really good point here. I do feel a lot of the people who are just happy to write off athletics are people who are not really into athletics anyway.

    So it suits their belief system. They have nothing to lose by slamming athletics, or cycling.

    Whereas with the sports they do follow - particularly soccer - they just dont contemplate that doping exists.

    On a parallel argument, I remember a strongly anti-Trump American pastor talking about the religious alt-right, and making the point that the 'sins' they get so worked about are the 'sins' that dont affect them personally - homosexuality and abortion. The sins that do affect them - e.g. divorce, adultery - are much lower down their agenda.


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