Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

the_amazing_raisin · 05-03-2021 12:16pm

slave1 wrote: »

Please don't tell me that was to extend CT clamps i.e. just ethernet ?

It was for Tony H, I believe it was €100 for the CT and €100 for an extra 6m of cabling to the charger

the_amazing_raisin · 05-03-2021 12:20pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

So who covers the labour cost of replacement?

The manufacturer should cover it in the event of a component failure, if the installer was at fault then they should cover the expense

Risteard81 · 05-03-2021 12:21pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

The manufacturer should cover it in the event of a component failure, if the installer was at fault then they should cover the expense

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it. This is allowed for with markup.

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 12:26pm

cruisey1987 wrote: »

The manufacturer should cover it in the event of a component failure, if the installer was at fault then they should cover the expense

Risteard81 wrote: »

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it. This is allowed for with markup.

MyEnergi will cover a replacement unit and the labour costs as demonstrated by Nigel Daly this week. The home owner actually got a V2 upgrade as his original unit is no longer being made.

Every electrician should have their own stock of cable, SWA. A general nominal amount to cover a job or 2. There should be no time wasted having to drive around picking cables for a job to an extent.

My brothers van, when you open it, reels of cable there ready to be pulled out what and when required.

This would avoid time spent having to pick up cable for each individual job.

liamog · 05-03-2021 12:29pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it. This is allowed for with markup.

I'd prefer if a tradesmen built that into an hourly rate instead as a cost of doing business. Charging me €250 for equipment I can find for myself for €25 just leaves a sour taste, the ability to find parts online means its much harder to hide the costs in crazy mark ups.

Sam W · 05-03-2021 1:25pm

liamog wrote: »

I'd prefer if a tradesmen built that into an hourly rate instead as a cost of doing business. Charging me €250 for equipment I can find for myself for €25 just leaves a sour taste, the ability to find parts online means its much harder to hide the costs in crazy mark ups.

There’s also a tax obligation to report service charge and material charge separately. It’s absolutely not fine to inflate the material charges as that part of VAT is not liable to the service provider. In essence this is tax evasion.

Plus I would definitely be pissed if I see a simple equipment being inflated for 10 times the charges.

KCross · 05-03-2021 1:28pm

Sam W wrote: »

There’s also a tax obligation to report service charge and material charge separately. It’s absolutely not fine to inflate the material charges as that part of VAT is not liable to the service provider. In essence this is tax evasion.

I think you're gone a bit too far with that one. There is no tax evasion in someone buying materials at one price and selling it at another. Its called business.

Sam W wrote: »

Plus I would definitely be pissed if I see a simple equipment being inflated for 10 times the charges.

Of course, buyer beware an all that.

slave1 · 05-03-2021 3:41pm

Sam W wrote: »

There’s also a tax obligation to report service charge and material charge separately. It’s absolutely not fine to inflate the material charges as that part of VAT is not liable to the service provider. In essence this is tax evasion.

Plus I would definitely be pissed if I see a simple equipment being inflated for 10 times the charges.

What?
I think you are confusing two thirds rule.
Anyone can charge whatever they like for a product or service they sell

slave1 · 05-03-2021 3:42pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it. This is allowed for with markup.

Gumbo wrote: »

MyEnergi will cover a replacement unit and the labour costs ...

True, MyEnergi will pay equivalent of £75 for any warranty work carried out by Registered Installer to cover labour time

Tony H · 05-03-2021 3:44pm

this is the wording of the invoice that I received ,

Kia Plus with
Ct Coil
Kia Plus upgrade with Ct Coil 1.00 700.44 13.5% 700.44

Extra Metres
of Instal over
5M
Extra Meters of Installation over standard 5m 7.00 15.83 13.5% 110.81
Subtotal 811.25
TOTAL 13.5% SALES VAT 13.5% 109.52
TOTAL EUR 920.77

Kia provide the basic pulsar unit , but because I have an electric shower I was told that the ct clamp only works with this model and I need this , despite the "slight" padding I think I am getting a fairly good unit for 320 euro total , it stings a bit but the kia "free install" despite the extras seems like the best option for me .

I will probably complain to Kia about the cost of the "extras" but don't think I will get any where .

Sam W · 05-03-2021 4:07pm

slave1 wrote: »

What?
I think you are confusing two thirds rule.
Anyone can charge whatever they like for a product or service they sell

Yes of course they can, provided that the VAT they declare to Revenue is the same as the price they charged the consumer.

A reasonable amount of mark-up is of course fine. 20-30%. 10 times the usual retail value is not right at all.

The builders who did our attic conversion 2 years ago got into the exact same trouble right before they did our conversion because they inflated their material cost to reduce their service cost. A customer complained to Revenue and they got audited.

Felexicon · 05-03-2021 4:12pm

slave1 wrote: »

I needed an extra CT clamp for my Zappi2 install and bought a generic one from local wholesaler, pretty sure is was something like €16+VAT

Sorry I was referring specifically to Wallbox there.

Felexicon · 05-03-2021 4:14pm

slave1 wrote: »

True, MyEnergi will pay equivalent of £75 for any warranty work carried out by Registered Installer to cover labour time

Realistically that is not alot. The swap out will be quick but you have to factor in travelling to the job and back again.

the_amazing_raisin · 05-03-2021 4:18pm

Tony H wrote: »

this is the wording of the invoice that I received ,

Kia Plus with
Ct Coil
Kia Plus upgrade with Ct Coil 1.00 700.44 13.5% 700.44

Extra Metres
of Instal over
5M
Extra Meters of Installation over standard 5m 7.00 15.83 13.5% 110.81
Subtotal 811.25
TOTAL 13.5% SALES VAT 13.5% 109.52
TOTAL EUR 920.77

Kia provide the basic pulsar unit , but because I have an electric shower I was told that the ct clamp only works with this model and I need this , despite the "slight" padding I think I am getting a fairly good unit for 320 euro total , it stings a bit but the kia "free install" despite the extras seems like the best option for me .

I will probably complain to Kia about the cost of the "extras" but don't think I will get any where .

Yeah I still think you're getting a decent price. I just find it very frustrating that the labour costs are essentially being rolled into the material costs

I feel like a lot of electricians (and other trades) do this so they can keep the line items quite simple. E.g. 1 CT clamp typically costs say €20 plus takes up to 1 hour to install and configure, so that gives €100 all told. If it takes slightly more or less time then that's on the electrician

And that's fine as far as I'm concerned as long as it's made clear to the customer that the line item includes labour

The quote above sort of implies that by mentioning that it's an "upgrade". But they could just spell it out to make life simpler for the customer

the_amazing_raisin · 05-03-2021 4:21pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Realistically that is not alot. The swap out will be quick but you have to factor in travelling to the job and back again.

Do you normally pay travel costs with a tradesperson? If an installer is signing up to be a service agent for MyEnergi (or whoever) then they know what they'll be getting into as regards coverage area

the_amazing_raisin · 05-03-2021 4:25pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Sorry I was referring specifically to Wallbox there.

Out of curiosity, does the Wallbox CT have some special connector or just bare wires like most CT clips?

If it's just wires then I wonder could you use a generic CT clamp

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 5:22pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Realistically that is not alot. The swap out will be quick but you have to factor in travelling to the job and back again.

Fair enough point but another poster/installer stated categorically that no EVSE suppliers will pay for warranty repairs.

Felexicon · 05-03-2021 5:29pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Fair enough point but another poster/installer stated categorically that no EVSE suppliers will pay for warranty repairs.

Well I know of one that will pay for the duration of works undertaken. That includes travel.

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 5:33pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Well I know of one that will pay for the duration of works undertaken. That includes travel.

Cool. I knew of one for sure too and I heard of others but that was only anecdotal proof, I have none that they will pay for the labour too.

It kinda refutes what this poster stated :

Risteard81 wrote: »

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it. This is allowed for with markup.

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 6:07pm

Looking for some help re home charger. I am moving from a plug in hybrid to a full electric and have used a basic rolec charger, I am installing a new charger which has dynamic load management(blackout protection) and i need a current transformer for it.I have no idea what blackout protection is or type of transformer to source.charger is a basic 7.4 kw.Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge.

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 7:07pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Looking for some help re home charger. I am moving from a plug in hybrid to a full electric and have used a basic rolec charger, I am installing a new charger which has dynamic load management(blackout protection) and i need a current transformer for it.I have no idea what blackout protection is or type of transformer to source.charger is a basic 7.4 kw.Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge.

Have you had an electrician take a look?
What Rolec charger are you coming from?
What chargers are you replacing it with?

So you need the dynamic load balancing?

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 7:14pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Have you had an electrician take a look?
What Rolec charger are you coming from?
What chargers are you replacing it with?

So you need the dynamic load balancing?

Hi Gumbo ROLEC 32 AMP single phase,bought the ELLI charger i read about on boards it has dynamic loading but dont know until i speak to electrician if i need it.Moving from a porsche panamera hybrid to the new rear wheel drive porsche Taycan with the smaller battery.

liamog · 05-03-2021 7:21pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Hi Gumbo ROLEC 32 AMP single phase,bought the ELLI charger i read about on boards it has dynamic loading but dont know until i speak to electrician if i need it.Moving from a porsche panamera hybrid to the new rear wheel drive porsche Taycan with the smaller battery.

I would of just stuck with the 32A Rolec, they're not the greatest in the world, but you didn't really need to upgrade that charger for the new car, after all "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 7:32pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Looking for some help re home charger. I am moving from a plug in hybrid to a full electric and have used a basic rolec charger, I am installing a new charger which has dynamic load management(blackout protection) and i need a current transformer for it.I have no idea what blackout protection is or type of transformer to source.charger is a basic 7.4 kw.Apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge.

lukas8888 wrote: »

Hi Gumbo ROLEC 32 AMP single phase,bought the ELLI charger i read about on boards it has dynamic loading but dont know until i speak to electrician if i need it.Moving from a porsche panamera hybrid to the new rear wheel drive porsche Taycan with the smaller battery.

Ok, but why the reason to change the charger?

You cannot draw any more than 32a with the new charger.
Now, if you need load balancing for some reason (shower/heat pump) etc that’s fair enough but then you would have needed it for the Rolec too.

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 7:39pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Ok, but why the reason to change the charger?

You cannot draw any more than 32a with the new charger.
Now, if you need load balancing for some reason (shower/heat pump) etc that’s fair enough but then you would have needed it for the Rolec too.

The Rolec is working fine but i have it 3 years and thought with the much bigger battery which will take nine to ten hours to charge overnight it might be better to change it.Not a clue if i need load balancing but have 4 electric showers in my home.

graememk · 05-03-2021 8:08pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

The Rolec is working fine but i have it 3 years and thought with the much bigger battery which will take nine to ten hours to charge overnight it might be better to change it.Not a clue if i need load balancing but have 4 electric showers in my home.

Unless you have three phase power in your house (which is very uncommon)

The fastest you can charge at is 32amps, or 7kW

Changing the charge point will not speed up the charging.

You don't need to change your charge point.

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 8:20pm

graememk wrote: »

Unless you have three phase power in your house (which is very uncommon)

The fastest you can charge at is 32amps, or 7kW

Changing the charge point will not speed up the charging.

You don't need to change your charge point.

Thank you, single phase, yes i know it will not charge any faster,my hybrid with a
14 kw battery charged in roughly two hours,i will now charge for 10 hours overnight so thought it might be better to get new charger.Was really wondering about the dynamic loading aspect.

KCross · 05-03-2021 8:38pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Thank you, single phase, yes i know it will not charge any faster,my hybrid with a
14 kw battery charged in roughly two hours,i will now charge for 10 hours overnight so thought it might be better to get new charger.Was really wondering about the dynamic loading aspect.

Based on what you’ve described earlier, the working assumption has to be that your 32A Rolec is installed with your existing showers already designed in.

Switching it out for another 32A charge point will make no difference to you regardless of whether the new one has load management or not.

I’d guess you already have a priority switch and that will continue to operate as it is with the new charge point.

Having said that, you could get a new charge point with load management and remove the priority switch and it would be a better solution but the point is that you don’t need to. The Rolec will do fine.

Felexicon · 05-03-2021 8:50pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Thank you, single phase, yes i know it will not charge any faster,my hybrid with a
14 kw battery charged in roughly two hours,i will now charge for 10 hours overnight so thought it might be better to get new charger.Was really wondering about the dynamic loading aspect.

Again, there are specific CTs that work with the Elli charger and the type you use will dictate the configuration of the dip switches. The compatible CTs are listed in the manual if you already have the charger.

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 8:51pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Thank you, single phase, yes i know it will not charge any faster,my hybrid with a
14 kw battery charged in roughly two hours,i will now charge for 10 hours overnight so thought it might be better to get new charger.Was really wondering about the dynamic loading aspect.

There’s no need to do anything here. If your 14 kWh PHEV charges in 2 hours then it was pulling 7kw. What PHEV was it?

Felexicon · 05-03-2021 8:55pm

Gumbo wrote: »

There’s no need to do anything here. If your 14 kWh PHEV charges in 2 hours then it was pulling 7kw. What PHEV was it?

Porsche Panamera

Mentioned in an earlier post

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 10:12pm

Felexicon wrote: »

Porsche Panamera

Mentioned in an earlier post

Yes Panamera 4E Hybrid,moving to a Taycan with the smaller 79 kw battery.

Gumbo · 05-03-2021 11:06pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

Yes Panamera 4E Hybrid,moving to a Taycan with the smaller 79 kw battery.

Enjoy.

79 kWh

lukas8888 · 05-03-2021 11:17pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Enjoy.

79 kWh

Thank you,considering i only have 29000 kilometres on the Panamera in 37 months,and the smaller battery on the Taycan should average 320 kilometres
over the summer months when most of my driving is done it should be ok.

Risteard81 · 05-03-2021 11:30pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Fair enough point but another poster/installer stated categorically that no EVSE suppliers will pay for warranty repairs.

Firstly, I wasn't referring to EVSE suppliers but one of the reasons for markups in general. I did not categorically state that no-one pays anything towards the replacement - quite obviously my point was that the only legal obligation on the supplier is to repair or replace the faulty part. There is no obligation on them to cover the labour cost, and the overwhelming majority don't. As pointed out, those that do don't actually cover the cost of labour. You have a strange concept of what labour costs if you think that this would come close to covering it.

Risteard81 · 05-03-2021 11:33pm

Sam W wrote: »

There’s also a tax obligation to report service charge and material charge separately. It’s absolutely not fine to inflate the material charges as that part of VAT is not liable to the service provider. In essence this is tax evasion.

Plus I would definitely be pissed if I see a simple equipment being inflated for 10 times the charges.

The Revenue Commissioners don't agree with you.

In fact you don't have to list them separately either. What you must do is ensure that if the parts cost exceeds two-thirds of the total parts and labour costs then the Standard rate of VAT (23%) is applied to the entire sale, otherwise the Reduced rate for Services (13.5%) applies to the lot. I'm not sure what you're on about it going to the service provider either - all VAT liabilities go to Revenue.

slave1 · 06-03-2021 9:17am

Risteard81 wrote: »

The manufacturer will only replace the faulty goods. They absolutely won't pay for the time involved in removing and replacing it...

Risteard81 wrote: »

.... There is no obligation on them to cover the labour cost, and the overwhelming majority don't. As pointed out, those that do don't actually cover the cost of labour. You have a strange concept of what labour costs if you think that this would come close to covering it.

I think you are missing the point being raised.
The first quote is that a manufacturer “absolutely won’t pay for the time involved”.
MyEnergi do pay, so that first post is incorrect.

Your further posts surmise that those companies that do pay for labour costs e.g. MyEnergi, don’t cover the entire labour costs.
No one said they that they do, all that was being pointed out is that the first post is incorrect.

BTW, I had a faulty EDDI unit replaced, straight swap and labour time was just over 10 minutes, £75 for 10 minutes

Risteard81 · 06-03-2021 1:50pm

slave1 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point being raised.
The first quote is that a manufacturer “absolutely won’t pay for the time involved”.
MyEnergi do pay, so that first post is incorrect.

Your further posts surmise that those companies that do pay for labour costs e.g. MyEnergi, don’t cover the entire labour costs.
No one said they that they do, all that was being pointed out is that the first post is incorrect.

BTW, I had a faulty EDDI unit replaced, straight swap and labour time was just over 10 minutes, £75 for 10 minutes

It's not 10 minutes. I had to do a 150 mile round trip to replace a faulty cover unit where the Bluetooth wasn't working on an EVSE. In other words it took half a day plus Diesel (for free).

Kramer · 06-03-2021 4:42pm

slave1 wrote: »

BTW, I had a faulty EDDI unit replaced, straight swap and labour time was just over 10 minutes

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's not 10 minutes.

Not sure who is more credible here, the actual person who had the unit replaced, or Risteard81.
Now, if Risteard81 was the actual electrician who swapped out slave1's unit & slave1 says it took 10 minutes, but Risteard81 said otherwise.............

.

Risteard81 wrote: »

I had to do a 150 mile round trip to replace a faulty cover unit where the Bluetooth wasn't working on an EVSE. In other words it took half a day plus Diesel (for free).

So would you habitually add enough markup then to cover a half day & tank of diesel, lest a unit fail, under warranty?
I could see how a 1000% markup could be justified then, by that logic

.

Risteard81 · 06-03-2021 5:06pm

Kramer wrote: »

Not sure who is more credible here, the actual person who had the unit replaced, or Risteard81.
Now, if Risteard81 was the actual electrician who swapped out slave1's unit & slave1 says it took 10 minutes, but Risteard81 said otherwise.............

.

So would you habitually add enough markup then to cover a half day & tank of diesel, lest a unit fail, under warranty?
I could see how a 1000% markup could be justified then, by that logic .

We don't have to do warranty revisits on the overwhelming majority of jobs obviously. What was worse was that the faulty component wasn't even supplied by us but by the customer's energy provider so we really should have invoiced for it.

Alkers · 08-03-2021 1:24pm

If you move house can you get the grant again with the same car?

Gumbo · 08-03-2021 2:26pm

Alkers wrote: »

If you move house can you get the grant again with the same car?

Yes. I’ve done it.
The restriction is the MPRN. So leave the old charger in place as the new bone owner cannot avail of the rent in the future.

liamog · 08-03-2021 4:09pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

We don't have to do warranty revisits on the overwhelming majority of jobs obviously. What was worse was that the faulty component wasn't even supplied by us but by the customer's energy provider so we really should have invoiced for it.

Sounds like you have a pretty bad deal with the manufacturer who's using you to service the warranty, seems a bit unfair for your customers to pay extra for the service to the manufacturer.

I've seen other trades where the warranty only covers labour for the first 12 months, after 12 months the parts are covered but the labour isn't.

lukas8888 · 08-03-2021 4:53pm

Gumbo wrote: »

Yes. I’ve done it.
The restriction is the MPRN. So leave the old charger in place as the new bone owner cannot avail of the rent in the future.

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

Cyrus · 08-03-2021 4:56pm

lukas8888 wrote: »

I thought you would also need the car registered in some other persons name,in other words you can not avail of grant twice irrespective of MPRN.

i dont think so, as long as the car is registered to the address of the MRPN its grand.

BTW when you get the taycan would you start a thread on it in the ev forum? itll be that or the Etron gt for me next (currently have the etron SUV)

cheers

Risteard81 · 08-03-2021 4:57pm

liamog wrote: »

Sounds like you have a pretty bad deal with the manufacturer who's using you to service the warranty, seems a bit unfair for your customers to pay extra for the service to the manufacturer.

I've seen other trades where the warranty only covers labour for the first 12 months, after 12 months the parts are covered but the labour isn't.

The problem is that EVSE installations done under the OLEV grant require three years' warranty to be provided on the equipment. For this reason it's likely that we will have to refuse to fit an EVSE not supplied by us where the customer is availing of the OLEV grant.

liamog · 08-03-2021 5:25pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

The problem is that EVSE installations done under the OLEV grant require three years' warranty to be provided on the equipment. For this reason it's likely that we will have to refuse to fit an EVSE not supplied by us where the customer is availing of the OLEV grant.

Is that an equipment warranty or an installation warranty? Still seems like your customers are getting a bum deal because of the costs to you of providing warranty labour services. Would be interesting to see how it differs in the 26.

lukas8888 · 08-03-2021 6:24pm

Cyrus wrote: »

i dont think so, as long as the car is registered to the address of the MRPN its grand.

BTW when you get the taycan would you start a thread on it in the ev forum? itll be that or the Etron gt for me next (currently have the etron SUV)

cheers

Will do,
Ordered two weeks ago,will probably not arrive until June so i will wait until July
to take it for new reg plate.

Risteard81 · 08-03-2021 6:52pm

liamog wrote: »

Is that an equipment warranty or an installation warranty? Still seems like your customers are getting a bum deal because of the costs to you of providing warranty labour services. Would be interesting to see how it differs in the 26.

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

liamog · 08-03-2021 7:01pm

Risteard81 wrote: »

Both parts and labour. It doesn't mean that anyone's getting a "bum deal" - markup is standard practice. I don't believe that SEAI requires a similar warranty in the 26-Counties as you don't register with them and the customer gets the payment. OLEV pay the installer directly on the other hand and require them to be registered for EVHS (Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme) and/or WCS (Workplace Charging Scheme) to offer the grants. We are registered for both EVHS and WCS and typically have to wait around six months for the grant payment to be made. We aren't allowed to invoice for the grant amount before being paid either under OLEV rules.

You've said yourself that you have to mark up parts significantly to to cover the cost of warranty repairs due to manufacturers not covering the travel and labour costs incurred.
If an installation in Ireland only covers the parts warranty and not installation costs then it stands to reason, that you don't need to significantly mark up the parts to cover those costs.

I'd rather pay a fair price and pay warranty labour costs 12 months after the install, than see every customer pay elevated costs to cover the rare eventuality that there may be a warranty repair required. It's just a different way of doing business.

Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

Comments