Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 2:36pm

GT89 wrote: »

But in comparison to the amount of cars that would be needed to transport all the passengers which the buses are carrying the amount of emissions being emitted are fairly insignificant. Purely hypothetical but if we could replace all cars with public transport there wouldn't be a need for electric vehicles.

If PT buses were free to users, or nearly free - say €1 for a 90 min all modes ticket, then using the car becomes a lot less attractive if you have to pay to park - if you can find a parking space. Add a congestion charge, then job done.

14-02-2021 2:43pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If PT buses were free to users, or nearly free - say €1 for a 90 min all modes ticket, then using the car becomes a lot less attractive if you have to pay to park - if you can find a parking space. Add a congestion charge, then job done.

What makes PT truly attractive are the following
- sub 10 min frequency (at this stage a timetable becomes redundant)
- consistent journey time

How you get this is
- infrastructure (bus lanes) &
- prioritization (bus priority at junctions where no lanes are in place)

Once you have that cost not as big a factor as you'd think.

If you can walk out your door, be at a stop within 10 mins, wait less than 10 mins, and be at your destination at a predictable time regardless of the time of the day, then a large portion of the population will chose to leave the car behind.

Charging €1 for a journey that has you waiting ages at a stop and is slow as Christmas is not going to make the PT option attractive to anyone

GT89 · 14-02-2021 2:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What makes PT truly attractive are the following
- sub 10 min frequency (at this stage a timetable becomes redundant)

Only a public timetable becomes irrelevant with 10 minute frequency the working timetable is still very important in order for it keeps to that timetable. No point having a 10 minute frequency if three buses come together.

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 3:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes PT truly attractive are the following
- sub 10 min frequency (at this stage a timetable becomes redundant)
- consistent journey time

How you get this is
- infrastructure (bus lanes) &
- prioritization (bus priority at junctions where no lanes are in place)

Once you have that cost not as big a factor as you'd think.

If you can walk out your door, be at a stop within 10 mins, wait less than 10 mins, and be at your destination at a predictable time regardless of the time of the day, then a large portion of the population will chose to leave the car behind.

Charging €1 for a journey that has you waiting ages at a stop and is slow as Christmas is not going to make the PT option attractive to anyone

I agree with you, but it is chicken and egg.

The cars cause congestion which delays the bus, so get rid of the delays by using bus lanes and bus priority measures and the buses will move quickly and reliably, but still cars will be preferred by many.

I remember the N11/Stillorgan dual carriageway was choked with cars in the morning and evening. Bus lanes replaced the hard shoulder, and buses could move (only as far as Donnybrook) but still. I would have put large identifiable numerals on each bus so that motorists would see the same bus pass them a few times on the slow crawl in the morning. If it was me, the next day, I would be on that bus.

A single solution will not solve the congestion.

14-02-2021 3:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A single solution will not solve the congestion.

Very true

donvito99 · 14-02-2021 8:02pm

bk wrote: »

Btw as an aside, it will also help greatly with BusConnects. Previously planning authorities and courts have ruled against leaving buses down certain streets (e.g. Parliament St) due to residents fears of lots of buses bringing increased pollution and noise.

Nice new EV buses will help greatly with this issue. It gives residents one less thing to fight with in court.

Maybe I am naive, but acquiescing to residents in this way is detrimental to public transport provision.

Buses are not responsible in any meaningful way to local pollution, that would be the hundreds of cars clogging up the roads. NIMBYs are using "diesel buses" as a means of torpedoing bus connects. The NTA would do well to demonstrate how some of the measures that they propose, which will see an increase in the amount of "diesel buses", will actually reduce pollution.

Failing to challenge residents in this regard yields ground and implies that a baseless claim which jeopardises Bus Connects has merit.

bk · 16-02-2021 12:06pm

Uhhh... It looks like DB already have full EV vehicles already! Well cars, small crossovers, Hyundai Kona Electric

Past one today, it is in a mini version of the new NTA livery and looks very good in it. All yellow in the front and up to the front door and then the green in the back. It doesn't have the leaf like the buses, but instead has the same lighter green colour of the leaf as a thin transition between the yellow of the front and the slightly darker green of the back.

Looks great. I didn't get a picture as there was someone sitting in it.

I assume these are for inspectors or something like that. Great choice on the Kona, one of the more affordable EV's (still not cheap), while having one of the highest battery ranges, as much as much more expensive entry level Tesla's. A little on the small side, but probably fine for inspectors.

punisher5112 · 16-02-2021 12:18pm

bk wrote: »

Uhhh... It looks like DB already have full EV vehicles already! Well cars, small crossovers, Hyundai Kona Electric

Past one today, it is in a mini version of the new NTA livery and looks very good in it. All yellow in the front and up to the front door and then the green in the back. It doesn't have the leaf like the buses, but instead has the same lighter green colour of the leaf as a thin transition between the yellow of the front and the slightly darker green of the back.

Looks great. I didn't get a picture as there was someone sitting in it.

I assume these are for inspectors or something like that. Great choice on the Kona, one of the more affordable EV's (still not cheap), while having one of the highest battery ranges, as much as much more expensive entry level Tesla's. A little on the small side, but probably fine for inspectors.

These are pool cars for chief inspectors, they have them quite a while now. I'm guessing rental as near everything else is.

ITV2 · 16-02-2021 12:43pm

they look good.

bk · 16-02-2021 1:26pm

ITV2 wrote: »

they look good.

Great pic, they do look good, nice job.

punisher5112 wrote: »

These are pool cars for chief inspectors, they have them quite a while now. I'm guessing rental as near everything else is.

Thanks. Leasing makes sense for EV's at the moment. The tech is advancing so quickly. Good for them to be able to try them out and see how they work out for their needs without getting stuck with them long term if they don't.

bk · 16-02-2021 2:44pm

Actually looking at that picture again, it looks like the livery on the Kona is more like a version of the DB hybrid livery, then the new TFI Green livery.

Looks great either way and close enough to the new one not to matter.

GT89 · 16-02-2021 5:50pm

I don't remember seeing DB staff cars in the past ever having any branding on them before.

GT89 · 16-02-2021 5:53pm

I saw a bus in the new livery out last night have to say I think it looks very good at night really makes the bus stand out.

punisher5112 · 16-02-2021 6:52pm

GT89 wrote: »

I don't remember seeing DB staff cars in the past ever having any branding on them before.

Some did but not a wrap, some had db on then but usually they were fiesta or focus and a bogey antenna on the roof.
They didn't want to stand out as they would be out trying to catch driver's.

GT89 · 23-02-2021 6:35pm

Interesting video of the rollout of electric buses in London. Might be relevant to the Dublin context.
https://youtu.be/nU3zbwBoSis

GT89 · 03-03-2021 2:28pm

The new DB depot in Broadstone has the capability to charge electric buses. I wonder will the PAs plug in features being used here.
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0302/1200508-bus-depot/

ax586 · 03-03-2021 8:11pm

GT89 wrote: »

The new DB depot in Broadstone has the capability to charge electric buses. I wonder will the PAs plug in features being used here.
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0302/1200508-bus-depot/

It will as the other depots that are getting them.like charge units are being installed Summerhill at the minute.

GT89 · 16-03-2021 6:52pm

Spotted this on FB
https://www.facebook.com/2053995648217799/posts/2965314387085916/?sfnsn=mo

bk · 16-03-2021 7:52pm

GT89 wrote: »

Spotted this on FB
https://www.facebook.com/2053995648217799/posts/2965314387085916/?sfnsn=mo

The NTA has a tender out for 200 EV single decker buses. The tender closed, but haven't heard anything since, if anyone has won the contract, etc.

I'd assume these ADL Enviro200EV will be a very strong runner for this contract.

Peregrine · 16-03-2021 8:02pm

bk wrote: »

The NTA has a tender out for 200 EV single decker buses. The tender closed, but haven't heard anything since, if anyone has won the contract, etc.

I'd assume these ADL Enviro200EV will be a very strong runner for this contract.

The framework agreement for 200 EV single deckers should be signed this summer.

GT89 · 17-03-2021 2:15pm

bk wrote: »

The NTA has a tender out for 200 EV single decker buses. The tender closed, but haven't heard anything since, if anyone has won the contract, etc.

I'd assume these ADL Enviro200EV will be a very strong runner for this contract.

I wonder what length they'll go for. These buses look like the shorter wheelbase version. I'd imagine the O route will need longest wheelbase available whereas other routes will need shorter wheelbase buses due to tight turns for example the 59 which couldn't handle the Streetlites. So perhaps a mix of different lengths will be bought.

bk · 17-03-2021 3:31pm

GT89 wrote: »

I wonder what length they'll go for. These buses look like the shorter wheelbase version. I'd imagine the O route will need longest wheelbase available whereas other routes will need shorter wheelbase buses due to tight turns for example the 59 which couldn't handle the Streetlites. So perhaps a mix of different lengths will be bought.

When I looked at this tender, it was for long wheelbase buses. Keep in mind most of these buses will end up in Cork, etc. with BE which use long wheel base busses.

bk · 18-03-2021 12:29pm

bk wrote: »

When I looked at this tender, it was for long wheelbase buses. Keep in mind most of these buses will end up in Cork, etc. with BE which use long wheel base busses.

So here is the tender, it doesn't specify length in the public info, but the title of the tender is, notice the "Long Length"
Single Supplier Framework Agreement for the Purchase of Single Deck Long Length Electric Buses:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/167175/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

I think BE has just under 100 single deckers and most of them are long length, the VWL I think are 12 meters for instance.

GoAhead has 40 streetlites, I'm not sure of their length, but they look a bit shorter then the cork ones, maybe closer to 10m.

CityDirect has single deckers, I don't know how many. But I think they are all long length too.

Dublin bus have just the 2 single deckers and they are midi's, I assume they aren't part of the tender. Probably will be done in a future small tender if needing replacing. They are relatively new anyway, 2017.

So we probably have about 150 to 160 buses across BE/GA/CityDirect. So I'd guess the extra buses would be for the O route.

Looking at the Enviro200EV, they are available in these lengths 9.6m, 10.2m, 10.9m or 11.6m

They could possibly order the 11.6m for the likes of Cork and a shorter length for GAI if that is what they need.

GT89 · 18-03-2021 1:02pm

bk wrote: »

So here is the tender, it doesn't specify length in the public info, but the title of the tender is, notice the "Long Length"
Single Supplier Framework Agreement for the Purchase of Single Deck Long Length Electric Buses:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/167175/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

I think BE has just under 100 single deckers and most of them are long length, the VWL I think are 12 meters for instance.

GoAhead has 40 streetlites, I'm not sure of their length, but they look a bit shorter then the cork ones, maybe closer to 10m.

CityDirect has single deckers, I don't know how many. But I think they are all long length too.

Dublin bus have just the 2 single deckers and they are midi's, I assume they aren't part of the tender. Probably will be done in a future small tender if needing replacing. They are relatively new anyway, 2017.

So we probably have about 150 to 160 buses across BE/GA/CityDirect. So I'd guess the extra buses would be for the O route.

Looking at the Enviro200EV, they are available in these lengths 9.6m, 10.2m, 10.9m or 11.6m

They could possibly order the 11.6m for the likes of Cork and a shorter length for GAI if that is what they need.

The Go-Ahead Streetlites are 11.6m. These are also in use for BE in Waterford. The DB ones would be the shorter wheelbase I think they are 10.2m BE also have these in use in Waterford, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Sligo, Balbriggan and City Direct in Kilkenny.

City Direct in Galway aren't PSO and their buses are mostly secondhand ex London buses it appears. So I'm guessing from you are suggesting that the Streetlites with BE and GAI will be replaced and withdrawn prematurely.

Peregrine · 18-03-2021 3:52pm

Yes, the GAI Streetlites are the Max version. DB Streetlites are considerably shorter. I think they're under 10m.

bk · 18-03-2021 3:56pm

GT89 wrote: »

The Go-Ahead Streetlites are 11.6m. These are also in use for BE in Waterford. The DB ones would be the shorter wheelbase I think they are 10.2m BE also have these in use in Waterford, Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Sligo, Balbriggan and City Direct in Kilkenny.

Ah, cool, some reason I always felt like the streetlites looked a bit shorter then the other models in Cork! If they go with the Enviro200EV so, I assume most if not all will likewise be 11.6m so.

GT89 wrote: »

City Direct in Galway aren't PSO and their buses are mostly secondhand ex London buses it appears. So I'm guessing from you are suggesting that the Streetlites with BE and GAI will be replaced and withdrawn prematurely.

City Direct operate two PSO routes in Kilkenny and that is what I was talking about. I just don't know how many buses they have there. They are actually mentioned in the tender along with BE, DB and GAI.

Peregrine · 18-03-2021 6:15pm

The OPW are also tendering for 8 electric single deckers. Mostly for use at Brú na Bóinne.

< 9.3m in length
29-31 seats
Minimum 160km range

Sam Russell · 18-03-2021 6:18pm

Do these hydrogen powered buses use hydrogen as a gas in an ICE or do they use it in a fuel cell?

I assume they would need a supply of oxygen to use it in a fuel cell.

L1011 · 18-03-2021 6:53pm

Fuel cell. Use atmospheric oxygen I believe.

Hydrogen combustion engines exist but are not practical

bk · 18-03-2021 7:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Do these hydrogen powered buses use hydrogen as a gas in an ICE or do they use it in a fuel cell?

I assume they would need a supply of oxygen to use it in a fuel cell.

The one's being trialled by BE at the moment? They are Hydrogen Fuel Cells and they get the oxygen from outside air.

Hydrogen internal combustion engine vehicle's, including buses, where you just burn the hydrogen in an ICE engine, have existed for many years, but they aren't zero emission vehicles, they release PM and NOX, so non runners for future use.

Peregrine wrote: »

The OPW are also tendering for 8 electric single deckers. Mostly for use at Brú na Bóinne.

Brilliant, makes a lot of sense for this location, UNESCO site and all that. Which BTW is well worth a visit for anyone who has never been.

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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