Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

Peregrine

GT89 wrote: »

Unless their including the likes of open tops, driver trainers, tree loopers etc.

Maybe. It's very odd to call the press in to say you have ambitious plans for zero emissions by 2050 when they can reasonably claim to be a zero emissions fleet by 2037-2040 though.

devnull

Peregrine wrote: »

Probably 2037. If the last hybrid bus is delivered in 2023, they'd have to use it for 27 years to only be zero emissions by 2050. Which doesn't make any sense.

It's a really strange announcement.

It's an especially strange announcement when you consider that generally it's not something that is going to be directly in the hands of the operator that is making said statement.

On the other hand a couple of weeks ago they were talking about the prospect of building residential properties above depots (or using some of the depot land) and were keen to become a bigger player in the real estate industry, alongside their transport division, so maybe they might use the proceeds of this to acquire vehicles with their own funds? :pac:

Peregrine

devnull wrote: »

It's an especially strange announcement when you consider that generally it's not something that is going to be directly in the hands of the operator that is making said statement.

Yeah, they'll be zero emissions whenever the NTA fleet purchasing enables them to be zero emissions. Except their commercial fleet.

I've been scratching my head about this all day and I can't come up with an explanation.

GT89

devnull wrote: »

On the other hand a couple of weeks ago they were talking about the prospect of building residential properties above depots (or using some of the depot land) and were keen to become a bigger player in the real estate industry, alongside their transport division, so maybe they might use the proceeds of this to acquire vehicles with their own funds? :pac:

That would be CIE group property along with the likes of railway arches etc.
https://www.cie.ie/Who-We-Are/Organisation-Structure/Group-Property-and-Retail

GT89

Peregrine wrote: »

Yeah, they'll be zero emissions whenever the NTA fleet purchasing enables them to be zero emissions. Except their commercial fleet.

I've been scratching my head about this all day and I can't come up with an explanation.

I noticed DB driver training buses have the new TFI logos on them now.

devnull

GT89 wrote: »

That would be CIE group property along with the likes of Railway Arches etc.
https://www.cie.ie/Who-We-Are/Organisation-Structure/Group-Property-and-Retail

I don't see any Dublin Bus properties being mentioned there.

Anyway it's pretty well known in the real estate trade at the moment that Dublin Bus are looking at ways to redevelop their depots or the land the depots are on with view to looking at potentially getting involved in the residential property industry. The depot at Ringsend is being talked about as possibly one of the sites. I would imagine all the big real estate companies in Dublin are sniffing around.

Apparently it's one of the big things that are on the management teams to-do list at the moment at Dublin Bus. They believe it could be quite a money-spinner for them. I'd be curious what they would do with the proceeds, whether this will indeed lead them to buying the kind of vehicles they mention themselves, or whether they will use the proceeds to get further into the property industry.

GT89

devnull wrote: »

I don't see any Dublin Bus properties being mentioned there.

Anyway it's pretty well known in the real estate trade at the moment that Dublin Bus are looking at ways to redevelop their depots or the land the depots are on with view to looking at potentially getting involved in the residential property industry. The depot at Ringsend is being talked about as possibly one of the sites. I would imagine all the big real estate companies in Dublin are sniffing around.

Apparently it's one of the big things that are on the management teams to-do list at the moment at Dublin Bus. They believe it could be quite a money-spinner for them. I'd be curious what they would do with the proceeds, whether this will indeed lead them to buying the kind of vehicles they mention themselves, or whether they will use the proceeds to get further into the property industry.

Yeah but I'd imagine CIE who are the parent company of DB as I'm sure your aware would have the final say in such a matter. Like with the plans for apartments over Tara Street Station. CIE already have a property division so that's probably who'll make these decisions. It's only something being talked about and explored so by no means a done deal with PP sought.

Mayve in the future operators will have to buy buses themselves meeting the NTAs specifications that's what TFL does.

bk

Yep, I was surprised by 2050 too, I'd have thought 2040 was achievable.

But perhaps a case of under promise and over deliver.

Of course even though there are tenders out, no full EV buses have actually been ordered yet. So perhaps they are being conservative in case the EV tender falls through or EV double decker prove not to have sufficient range yet.

It could be a case they are absolutely certain they can do it by 2050, but are hoping for 2040.

Of course the 2050 date is an important date for government policy as it is the date we are supposed to hit net zero carbon. So I'd expect a lot of companies to announce similar deadlines, even if they get there earlier.

As an aside, I'm impressed with the number of EV delivery vans I'm seeing pop up. Both my local DPD and AnPost parcel drivers are using EV vans now. I suspect while they have higher upfront cost, the lower ongoing costs and TCO is very attractive to major fleet operators like this and there is real financial incentive for them to move to EV much faster then many expect.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Yep, I was surprised by 2050 too, I'd have thought 2040 was achievable.

But perhaps a case of under promise and over deliver.

Of course even though there are tenders out, no full EV buses have actually been ordered yet. So perhaps they are being conservative in case the EV tender falls through or EV double decker prove not to have sufficient range yet.

It could be a case they are absolutely certain they can do it by 2050, but are hoping for 2040.

Of course the 2050 date is an important date for government policy as it is the date we are supposed to hit net zero carbon. So I'd expect a lot of companies to announce similar deadlines, even if they get there earlier.

As an aside, I'm impressed with the number of EV delivery vans I'm seeing pop up. Both my local DPD and AnPost parcel drivers are using EV vans now. I suspect while they have higher upfront cost, the lower ongoing costs and TCO is very attractive to major fleet operators like this and there is real financial incentive for them to move to EV much faster then many expect.

Would there be any benefit for the Gov to look to lease these EV buses over a ten year lease? If they prove unworkable for any reason, they could terminate the lease. (Though what they replace them with is anyone's guess.)

GT89

bk wrote: »

As an aside, I'm impressed with the number of EV delivery vans I'm seeing pop up. Both my local DPD and AnPost parcel drivers are using EV vans now. I suspect while they have higher upfront cost, the lower ongoing costs and TCO is very attractive to major fleet operators like this and there is real financial incentive for them to move to EV much faster then many expect.

Buses are a different kettle of fish to LCVs though

GT89

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would there be any benefit for the Gov to look to lease these EV buses over a ten year lease? If they prove unworkable for any reason, they could terminate the lease. (Though what they replace them with is anyone's guess.)

Can't see many reputable bus manufacturers agreeing to that

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would there be any benefit for the Gov to look to lease these EV buses over a ten year lease? If they prove unworkable for any reason, they could terminate the lease. (Though what they replace them with is anyone's guess.)

Unworkable in what way?

They are buses

The only change is the drivetrain and the batteries

Peregrine

Anyway, the framework for the 200 single deck electric buses should be announced very soon. Initial order of 45 starting delivery towards the end of the year or early next year. Athlone looks set to get the first batch of these. Carlow is also being looked at but that's subject to receiving funding for a Carlow town bus service.

The framework for the 800 double decks will be signed at the end of 2021 with delivery starting at the end of 2022.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Unworkable in what way?

They are buses

The only change is the drivetrain and the batteries

Range and charging time.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Range and charging time.

That was an issue 4-5 years ago, not anymore

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

That was an issue 4-5 years ago, not anymore

We hope it isn't, but there is always a difference in what the specs might promise, versus what they find in real life day to day operation. In particular with regards to range for EV's.

There is also the question of how battery health holds up over time.

Finally in the world of car EV's, some have had major recalls due to finding batteries catching fire. The Hyundai Kona and Ford Mach-E jump to mind at the moment.

Hopefully it all goes smoothly, but EV double deckers are a lot more immature tech then the single deckers.

Peregrine, great to hear of the progress on the tenders.

Peregrine

Oh, oh, and there's going to be another NTA tender for shorter length single deck battery buses this year. The tender for the 200 buses are long length variants.

The single deckers should have been bought years ago.

bk

Peregrine wrote: »

Oh, oh, and there's going to be another NTA tender for shorter length single deck battery buses this year. The tender for the 200 buses are long length variants.

The single deckers should have been bought years ago.

Do you know how many shorter single deckers and for which routes?

I'm guessing they are for the likes of Local Link.

I agree on the single deckers. Double deckers are more complicated, but single deckers are a lot more straight forward. We probably should have been buying hybrid double deckers earlier too.

bk

bk wrote: »

Yep, I was surprised by 2050 too, I'd have thought 2040 was achievable.

As I suspected, interesting tidbit from the NTA Board meeting minutes:

on a steady state renewal basis the urban bus fleet will be entirely zero emission or hybrid by 2032 , and entirely zero emission by 2035;

and opportunities to achieve early conversion of some regional cities to zero emission vehicles, with existing buses redistributed, are being kept under review.

So I'd say DB's 2050 date is just them being conservative in case they hit snags and probably including various training buses, buses in storage, etc. and maybe some of their private operations fleet.

GT89

bk wrote: »

Do you know how many shorter single deckers and for which routes?

I'm guessing they are for the likes of Local Link.

I agree on the single deckers. Double deckers are more complicated, but single deckers are a lot more straight forward. We probably should have been buying hybrid double deckers earlier too.

Could be for some of the quieter routes or routes with tight turns that would be inappropriate for a full size single decker like the 59 or the 44b or whatever their bus connects replacements will be numbered. The NTA haven't bought any buses for Local Link operators as of yet.

Yeah I don't understand why they didn't buy hybrids sooner obviously the original hybrid trial on the 16 about 10 years ago was a disaster but they had a Volvo B5LH demonstrator in 2014 but never looked into hybrids more until the introduction of the WH, VH and AH class so I'm not sure why they went ahead and purchased 675 SGs before buying hybrids.

punisher5112

GT89 wrote: »

Could be for some of the quieter routes or routes with tight turns that would be inappropriate for a full size single decker like the 59 or the 44b or whatever their bus connects replacements will be numbered. The NTA haven't bought any buses for Local Link operators as of yet.

Yeah I don't understand why they didn't buy hybrids sooner obviously the original hybrid trial on the 16 about 10 years ago was a disaster but they had a Volvo B5LH demonstrator in 2014 but never looked into hybrids more until the introduction of the WH, VH and AH class so I'm not sure why they went ahead and purchased 675 SGs before buying hybrids.

Sure our EV type was hybrid in London from around 2007....
Very slow to the party here...

London are now leaving hybrid behind from what I see and going full EV...

L1011

Those 2007s were non plugin and extremely unreliable. All electric range generated onboard by diesel directly or indirectly (brake recovery of motion propelled by diesel).

GT89

Peregrine wrote: »

Oh, oh, and there's going to be another NTA tender for shorter length single deck battery buses this year. The tender for the 200 buses are long length variants.

The single deckers should have been bought years ago.

I said it on another thread but I don't see the big advantages of using single decker buses that cost nearly the same to operate as double decker buses as the big operating cost being the drivers wages. An all double decker fleet with some single decker buses being kept for routes that cannot take double deckers only routes that would fit that description being the 44b and the proposed O route.

I think the NTA made a mistake buying Streetlites which don't even have centre doors for Go-Ahead and should have bought an all double decker fleet for GAIs city routes. I know other cities on the continent use single deckers successfully but these are larger buses geared towards standing generally with three doors if these types of buses were introduced there would need to be major changes to bus stop and road infrastructure for them to be sucessful.

bk

Well the 12m long single deckers in Cork actually squeeze in an impressive number of people and aren't all that less then a double decker.

While the introduction of deckers in Cork is very welcome, there are still a lot of routes there and I'm sure the other cities and even many of GAI's routes for whom a decker would be overkill. I do agree that they should be dual door.

punisher5112

Will all the next one's be dual door?

GT89

bk wrote: »

Well the 12m long single deckers in Cork actually squeeze in an impressive number of people and aren't all that less then a double decker.

While the introduction of deckers in Cork is very welcome, there are still a lot of routes there and I'm sure the other cities and even many of GAI's routes for whom a decker would be overkill. I do agree that they should be dual door.

The double deckers aren't really an overkill though as the cost difference of running a double decker compared to a single is minimal better to be over capacity than under capacity. Having a fleet made up of the same type of buses is also cheaper to run and allows more flexibility than a fleet with multiple types.

The problem with 12m single deckers whilst they can in some models even carry just as many passengers as a double decker as I have seen on the continent some single deckers have a plated capacity of 90 passengers which is the same as a double decker however 12m buses would be unsuitable for use on many routes due to tight turns as double deckers are generally shorter and have a tighter turning circle so are more flexible.

Introducing continental style buses which would be great for dwell times would be impractical here on many routes due to tight turns. I can't see much use for single deckers here personally outside of routes that can't take double deckers or maybe smaller cities and towns like Waterford, Athlone, Kilkenny, Sligo etc.

Jarrett Walker has an excellent piece on operating cost maybe the NTA should have consulted him on bus sizes aswell as route design.

https://humantransit.org/2011/07/02box.html

Jarrett Walker wrote:

In wealthy countries, transit operating cost is mostly the cost of labor. This is usually around 70% of the total cost of operations. So:
Smaller buses are not much cheaper to operate, unless you pay the driver less.
Faster service can cost less to operate, because drivers are paid by the hour rather than by distance

Burt Renaults

GT89 wrote: »

I think the NTA made a mistake buying Streetlites which don't even have centre doors for Go-Ahead and should have bought an all double decker fleet for GAIs city routes.

It was more than just a mistake. I would hope that there were some kind of consequences for whoever in the NTA signed off on their purchase. They're not even properly wheelchair accessible. I think they were allocated 40 of them. That's several million euro of public money blown on a fleet of buses that were noisy and unreliable from day-one and are literally falling apart after less than three years. Rumour has it that they were in storage for a while prior to 2018 because Dublin Bus took one look at them and said "nope". I have never heard an engineer, a driver or a passenger with anything positive to say about them. As far as steering, braking and acceleration are concerned, they are dangerously poor vehicles.

They should have bought a decent fleet of high quality single-deckers from a company that wasn't doubling-up as a religious cult.

GT89

Burt Renaults wrote: »

It was more than just a mistake. I would hope that there were some kind of consequences for whoever in the NTA signed off on their purchase. They're not even properly wheelchair accessible. I think they were allocated 40 of them. That's several million euro of public money blown on a fleet of buses that were noisy and unreliable from day-one and are literally falling apart after less than three years. Rumour has it that they were in storage for a while prior to 2018 because Dublin Bus took one look at them and said "nope". I have never heard an engineer, a driver or a passenger with anything positive to say about them. As far as steering, braking and acceleration are concerned, they are dangerously poor vehicles.

They should have bought a decent fleet of high quality single-deckers from a company that wasn't doubling-up as a religious cult.

The thing is these things are built to meet the specifications of a tender so the NTA have to accept them if they meet the tender requirements set out. My point was more they shouldn't have bothered with single deckers at all and just bought all double deckers for GAI. Also don't forget there's another 40 of them with BE and a small quantity with DB and City Direct in Kilkenny.

100% with you on the Streetlites btw. Was only ever on one once one of the DB ones once on the 145 of all routes it showed up at 8:30 in the morning and was surprisingly fairly empty. Felt like the bus was trying to jerk forward every time it stopped at lights or a bus stop.

Burt Renaults

GT89 wrote: »

The thing is these things are built to meet the specifications of a tender so the NTA have to accept them if they meet the tender requirements set out.

They don't have to accept them if they don't meet quality requirements. And a bus without a correctly functioning braking system, underpowered steering with inadequate lock, and with interior parts that randomly drop off, does not meet quality requirements.

GT89

Burt Renaults wrote: »

They don't have to accept them if they don't meet quality requirements. And a bus without a correctly functioning braking system, underpowered steering with inadequate lock, and with interior parts that randomly drop off, does not meet quality requirements.

Problem is these buses are bought by pen pushers who never have to drive them