Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

smashey · 22-01-2008 1:19pm

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Percolation area :[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] – 3m from boundary (10m if boundary has a stream)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] - 10m from road[/FONT]
- [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]20m from other percolation areas[/FONT]
- 2[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]0m from dwelling[/FONT]

dfcelt · 22-01-2008 1:23pm

Its 20m thats required from dwelling to tank I think

I boundary distance 3m?

Percolation area to be 80m2, so 8x10 is what I'm working with at the mo.
If I went for a pumped system area would be 60m2 I was informed, wasn't informed of price for pumped system though

All dimensions subject to correction by Smashey

Beat me to it.
Does the 10m from road relate to any road? The lane in question only serves a few households. No major issue, I'll just have to shift my house back a few metres on the site layout.

Villain · 22-01-2008 1:32pm

What about well Smashey?

dfcelt · 22-01-2008 1:37pm

Villain,
I have percolation area to front of site.
Was advised to place well to rear of site. i.e. if p.area was to to front left best practice would be to have well at rear right. No idea of dimension though. I'll look it up at lunchtime though unless Smashey gets back to you in meantime.

mickdw · 22-01-2008 1:38pm

dfcelt wrote: »

Does anyone know if there is a mimimum width/size that a site must adhere to relative to obtaining planning with a septic tank?
Almost finished my application drgs and current landowner (father in law) is wondering if we could limit our roadside dimension to 30m in order for him to install a new entrance to the rest of his field adjacent to our site. The lane dips quite a bit after about 40m so ideally he would need me to limit our frontage to 30m to enable his new gate to be installed. We can extend back into the field as much as we like and extend across the field as much as we like but its the frontage which may become an issue. I'm thinking of 30m wide at roadside, 40m wide in field & length 60/65m. Any more than 1/2 acre and cutting the lawn will depress me every summer!
Percolation holes dug and approved for septic tank. Plans of house hopefully finalised this week, I'll post them up here for comments/suggestions/ridicule.

Frontage required would be contained in development plan. Mayo for example require 30m if on family land with housing need etc and 2000 sq.m. or 40m and 3000 sq.m. for others.

Distances applicable are:

septic tank to your house 7m
septic tank to other house 20m
Percolation area to house (any) 20m
Percolation to other persons percolation 20m
Percolation to boundary 3m
Percolation to drain 10m

Take in as much as possible to ease percolation worries of the planners. Remember, you dont need to make a lawn of it all. Much of the site can remain untouched. In fact I much prefer to have the percolation area in a part of site which is not lawn

mickdw · 22-01-2008 1:41pm

dfcelt wrote: »

Villain,
I have percolation area to front of site.
Was advised to place well to rear of site. i.e. if p.area was to to front left best practice would be to have well at rear right. No idea of dimension though. I'll look it up at lunchtime though unless Smashey gets back to you in meantime.

Will check out well distance, Would have thought its 100m but may be wrong. Doesnt crop up too often.

muffler · 22-01-2008 2:53pm

Villain wrote: »

What about well Smashey?

Percolation area will have to be 30m from well. The other separating distances referred to above can be reduced in a lot of cases.

The bible for all these matters is the EPA manual -wastewater treatment systems for single dwellings.. You will find all you need to know in that manual but bear in mind that some local authorities look for greater separation distances.

Hope this helps.

cue · 22-01-2008 3:07pm

Planner spoke to architect and told him that she would not accept letters from sports bodies, clergy, schools, social organisations etc. She would only accept utility bills, bank details etc. That's kinda difficult seeing as I lived with my parents until I was 18, which is the time period in question. Councillor is waiting to speak with the head planner.

muffler · 22-01-2008 3:31pm

cue wrote: »

Planner spoke to architect and told him that she would not accept letters from sports bodies, clergy, schools, social organisations etc. She would only accept utility bills, bank details etc. That's kinda difficult seeing as I lived with my parents until I was 18, which is the time period in question. Councillor is waiting to speak with the head planner.

The bottom line in this is that you have to show roots to the area. In your particular case as indeed with any other case the planners, through their development plan, will have to tell you what you need to submit to prove your bona fides. I would ring the planner (or get your architect to do so if you wish) and ask them to state categorically what documentation they are prepared to accept. Have a trawl through the county development plan yourself and it should list what is required and then quote from it if necessary.

Good move to get the councillor to talk to the head planner.

sydthebeat · 22-01-2008 3:38pm

cue wrote: »

Planner spoke to architect and told him that she would not accept letters from sports bodies, clergy, schools, social organisations etc. She would only accept utility bills, bank details etc. That's kinda difficult seeing as I lived with my parents until I was 18, which is the time period in question. Councillor is waiting to speak with the head planner.

Its almost impossible to prove any affiliation to an area without letters from schools, clergy, societies, clubs etc. The planner cannot discriminate between documents on a planning file, so i would advise including absolutely everything you can. The more info you supply backing up your case the better. the planner will be more reluctant to refuse if you give a good enough argument, especially where you have the Bord as an avenue open to you.

dfcelt · 23-01-2008 4:28pm

Have another enquiry lads.
Louth development plan states that a house of 200m2 is max size to fit on a 1/2 acre (2000m2/0.2 hectare) site. Thereafter 20m2 is to be added to size of site for each additional 1m2 of house.
My situation is this: 278m2 (3000sq ft); my house would need an additional 20 x 78 = 1,560m2
So basically, my site would need to be 3560m2/.87 acre/.356 hectares in order for it to comply :eek: Site is currently 1/2 acre, don't want to chance my arm too much with in-laws.

Will this fact result in planners simply firing application back to me straight away. Actual house footing doesn't look out of place when see on site layout map. Asides from this we appear to comply with all other compliance pointers such as local needs, within 4km from previous dwelling, etc. etc.
I see plenty of houses on my way to work & around the country well in excess of the 3,000 sq ft house I was planning to lodge sitting on a 1/2 acre site or less (most with garages that look to be about 7 x 10m too). How the hell did they get planning approval

Should I attempt to submit site layout plan with site shown complying with development plan (on the agreement land remains part of father in-laws field in reality) purely for planning & then revert to original size for construction? Wrong I know but thought I'd throw it out there.

Getting a cold sweat now just thinking about having to redesign.

sydthebeat · 23-01-2008 4:59pm

dfcelt wrote: »

Have another enquiry lads.
Louth development plan states that a house of 200m2 is max size to fit on a 1/2 acre (2000m2/0.2 hectare) site. Thereafter 20m2 is to be added to size of site for each additional 1m2 of house.
My situation is this: 278m2 (3000sq ft); my house would need an additional 20 x 78 = 1,560m2

1. So basically, my site would need to be 3560m2/.87 acre/.356 hectares in order for it to comply :eek: Site is currently 1/2 acre, don't want to chance my arm too much with in-laws.

Will this fact result in planners simply firing application back to me straight away. Actual house footing doesn't look out of place when see on site layout map. Asides from this we appear to comply with all other compliance pointers such as local needs, within 4km from previous dwelling, etc. etc.

2.I see plenty of houses on my way to work & around the country well in excess of the 3,000 sq ft house I was planning to lodge sitting on a 1/2 acre site or less (most with garages that look to be about 7 x 10m too). How the hell did they get planning approval
3. Should I attempt to submit site layout plan with site shown complying with development plan (on the agreement land remains part of father in-laws field in reality) purely for planning & then revert to original size for construction? Wrong I know but thought I'd throw it out there.

Getting a cold sweat now just thinking about having to redesign.

1. If its in the county development plan, then the planner is correct to refuse if it doesnt comply with requirements.
2. These may have been granted permission before the current dev plan was enacted. Plus precedent is generally only given as an excuse when its useful for the local authority ie, the mistakes of the past will not be repeated in the future.
3. you should arrange a pre-planning meeting and meet the area planner and put these questions to him/her. even a 2 minute phone call would clear these matters up. If you were to sell your site for whatever reason in the future, you will have to sell that portion of land that was granted permission... as far as im led to believe anyway. What you can do is request the large site, get it into your name but agree only to only fence off the minimum area you require and allow the in-laws to farm the remainder. you dont have to occupy the whole site.

dfcelt · 23-01-2008 5:03pm

Cheers Syd, think I'll make a phonecall.

Villain · 23-01-2008 5:04pm

I know of previous cases in Carlow where people needed to submit a new site plan showing .75 of an acre before Planning would be granted, it normally is due to Percolation more so that size of house, well actually size of house relates to percolation, i.e the number of bedrooms and bathrooms. One tip Don't show all rooms as bedrooms i.e. his study, her study and not every bathroom that you THINK you will build. Fitting a house that size on a site if you need a waste water system will be tight.

loughdergjunkie · 23-01-2008 7:03pm

muffler wrote: »

Percolation area will have to be 30m from well. The other separating distances referred to above can be reduced in a lot of cases.

The bible for all these matters is the EPA manual -wastewater treatment systems for single dwellings.. You will find all you need to know in that manual but bear in mind that some local authorities look for greater separation distances.

Hope this helps.

30m is correct but depends on the gradient of the site. If the well is below gradient or has any existing development above it, the distance will have to be increased. Don't think the other separation distances are that negotiable but his site is sizeable anyway. The 80 sq m percolation area is undersized and likely to be increased by condition

dfcelt · 24-01-2008 11:02am

Villain, thanks for the hints.
Loughderg, the house has 3 bathrooms, got a Civil Engineer, FAS/EPA qualified etc. to carry out tests. He has filled out site characterisation form & recommends a polishing filter area of 60m2 or 80m2 percolation area. All depends on whether i need a pumped system due to invert level of percolation pipe.
There is a nice gradient on the plot from rear to front so well position should be ok, distance in excess of 30m. My real concern is the actual size of the property in relation to development plan pointers.

smashey · 24-01-2008 11:10am

That percolation area seems small alright.

sydthebeat · 24-01-2008 11:21am

In kilkenny they require 20 m piping per person. they work out the dwelling capacity by the number and size of bedrooms i.e. a 3.0 x 3.0 room or bigger is a two person room. This is a pain the hole to be honest, as any standard rural dwelling these days have at least 4 bedrooms and usually the smallest is 3 x 3m. This means we usually have to provide 160m2 of percolation piping (8 x 20).... its a big chunk of a site!!

dfcelt · 24-01-2008 11:38am

So on the face of it, I'd be better off applying for a pumped system, polishing unit etc. as opposed to standard tank/percolation bed as the actual footings required would be reduced. Bearing in mind the size of site (1/2 acre or so)

secman · 24-01-2008 11:39am

To build a 2250 st ft house on a .7 acre site in Wexford we were required to put in a 150 sq metre percolation area. We opted for a 30 sq metre in width by 5 meter in depth.

Secman

sydthebeat · 24-01-2008 11:44am

dfcelt wrote: »

So on the face of it, I'd be better off applying for a pumped system, polishing unit etc. as opposed to standard tank/percolation bed as the actual footings required would be reduced. Bearing in mind the size of site (1/2 acre or so)

In my experience, it doesnt matter what treatment system you install, you are still required to provide the necessary percolation piping. The percolation area size MAY be requested to be increased by the planner, but i would apply showing what your EPA approved engineer has recommended.

The actual site size should be agreed with the planner before the application is submitted to negate any risk of refusal on this basis.

Villain · 24-01-2008 11:57am

Dfcelt, I just noted you stated you will have a well on site, AFAIK you won't get planning for a house, waste water system and well on a .5 acre.

dfcelt · 24-01-2008 12:39pm

Really Villain, why not? I thought 30m was min distance from closest edge of percolation area to well. Gradient of site is such that well is positioned to rear of site elevated from p. area at front and distance is in excess of 30m. Might have to start sweet talking the in-laws

Villain · 24-01-2008 12:45pm

Well obviously it does depend on those distances, but I know in Carlow as a rule of thumb that you can't have both a well and a waste water treatment system on a site smaller than .75 acre, that only became the way in the past 3 or 4 years.

I have a .75 acre with 4 bedrooms and I was hard pressed to fit both. I'll try and dig out my site map and show it.

Villain · 24-01-2008 1:01pm

Don't have proper site drawing with measurements with me I'll post tonight but you can get an idea from below

sydthebeat · 24-01-2008 1:08pm

in Offaly and Kilkenny you need atleast 3/4 acre for a well and septic tank
In laois you only need 1/2 acre...

really depends on your county development plan
this is all i could find for louth:

The site area has to be of sufficient size to adequately provide for the safe disposal of domestic effluent generated. In the case of a conventional septic tank and percolation area, the site shall not be less than 0.2 hectares. Where other systems are used, an area of less than 0.2 hectares may be permitted at the discretion of the planning authority. Small communal wastewater treatment systems may also be permitted in certain circumstances.
In addition to the above guidelines, prospective applicants for new houses within category II development centres should have recourse to the documents Building Sensitively and Sustainably in County Louth and Design Guidelines for Single House in the Countryside published by Louth County Council 1999.

loughdergjunkie · 24-01-2008 2:28pm

dfcelt wrote: »

Villain, thanks for the hints.
Loughderg, the house has 3 bathrooms, got a Civil Engineer, FAS/EPA qualified etc. to carry out tests. He has filled out site characterisation form & recommends a polishing filter area of 60m2 or 80m2 percolation area. All depends on whether i need a pumped system due to invert level of percolation pipe.
There is a nice gradient on the plot from rear to front so well position should be ok, distance in excess of 30m. My real concern is the actual size of the property in relation to development plan pointers.

dc

well is a-ok as long as you have no development above it.
Can't remember if you're in donegal or not but 60/80 sq. m will not be accepted. However, the decision won't be affected by the assessor's recommendation as long as the site conditions are acceptable. Not sure what you mean by the invert level. Surely everything in the front of the dwelling is on a downward gradient so gravity shouldn't be an issue? You should only need a pumped system if you have to build up the site.

loughdergjunkie · 24-01-2008 2:38pm

dfcelt wrote: »

Its 20m thats required from dwelling to tank I think
I boundary distance 3m?

Percolation area to be 80m2, so 8x10 is what I'm working with at the mo.
If I went for a pumped system area would be 60m2 I was informed, wasn't informed of price for pumped system though

All dimensions subject to correction by Smashey

Beat me to it.
Does the 10m from road relate to any road? The lane in question only serves a few households. No major issue, I'll just have to shift my house back a few metres on the site layout.

BTW, 80 sq m is not 8 X 10 because you have to allow about 0.3m for the individual trenches as well as 2m between each trench...

muffler · 24-01-2008 2:42pm

loughdergjunkie wrote: »

Can't remember if you're in donegal or not but 60/80 sq. m will not be accepted.

Yes indeed - upwards of 200m2 is the norm - God (and the planners) only knows why.

loughdergjunkie wrote: »

You should only need a pumped system if you have to build up the site.

Not necessarily. If using a sand polishing filter for example the treated sewage must be pumped through the filter. Levels dont come into it at all.

loughdergjunkie · 24-01-2008 5:58pm

muffler wrote: »

Yes indeed - upwards of 200m2 is the norm - God (and the planners) only knows why.

Not necessarily. If using a sand polishing filter for example the treated sewage must be pumped through the filter. Levels dont come into it at all.

Good point. Just can't see why he would have to go down that road when he has such a good sized site with gravity falls and good ground conditions. Seems like overkill...

Villain · 24-01-2008 10:22pm

Not sure if its of any use but here is my site map which got planning on .75 acre actually I think that drawing map be .8

plasto · 30-01-2008 10:38pm

do i need ppm for a self contained one bedroom home at the back of my garden? It will be less than 40spm and is only one story high. i live in a three bed semi-detached house in a built up area (houses all around me).

sydthebeat · 30-01-2008 10:52pm

yes.

the 40 sq m exemption only applies to domestic garages / sheds.

plus, its highly unlikely you will get permission for such a development unless there is a well established percedent in the immediate area, which i doubt.

plasto · 30-01-2008 11:13pm

Thanks syd,

the bloke behind me built one about three years ago.....not sure if he got planning for it. what if it was a granny flat? whats the difference between it being a shed or a house, do i need permission for the building or for someone to live in the building?

muffler · 31-01-2008 12:04am

plasto wrote: »

Thanks syd,

the bloke behind me built one about three years ago.....not sure if he got planning for it. what if it was a granny flat? whats the difference between it being a shed or a house, do i need permission for the building or for someone to live in the building?

Sydthebeat has summed it up nicely. You do need permission for that proposal.

I dont think you need to be a rocket scientist to work out the difference between a shed and a house. A granny flat is still a house (self contained apartment or whatever you want to call it) at the end of the day.

Your neigbour may or may not have permission for his development. Without knowing the area and the circumstances its unfair to comment but its not usually allowed. And even if he had permission it would not necessarily mean that you would get permission for the same proposal but it would be a help though.

plasto · 31-01-2008 12:35am

muffler wrote: »

Sydthebeat has summed it up nicely. You do need permission for that proposal.

I dont think you need to be a rocket scientist to work out the difference between a shed and a house. A granny flat is still a house (self contained apartment or whatever you want to call it) at the end of the day.

Your neigbour may or may not have permission for his development. Without knowing the area and the circumstances its unfair to comment but its not usually allowed. And even if he had permission it would not necessarily mean that you would get permission for the same proposal but it would be a help though.

Thanks for your advice. I had visions of collecting a healthy rent every month.

Ah well, there's one born everyday.......back to the drawing board!!!:rolleyes:

muffler · 31-01-2008 12:47am

plasto wrote: »

Thanks for your advice. I had visions of collecting a healthy rent every month.

Ah well, there's one born everyday.......back to the drawing board!!!:rolleyes:

You could always go to your local planning dept. and have a look through their map register (or online if its available) and identify other planning applications in the immediate area and see if any were for self contained units/houses. If there were a couple granted for proposals similar to yours there would be, as has been pointed out, an established precedent which could be helpful.

Dont give up without exploring all options first.

DJKAV · 31-01-2008 4:11pm

hello need help please i`m buying an old cottage with four bedrooms on 1acre but i need to gut it and also build an extention and get the roof re done . i haven`t a clue where to start and if i want to build another two three rooms can i ? or do i have to live in it first ... i`m new to this ... help please ..

basically what i want to do is build at the back of the cottage and extend it but i don`t know how much i can build or how high?

kind regards ..
p.

sydthebeat · 31-01-2008 4:21pm

basically you can extend to the rear of the cottage with 40sq m of an extension assuming the cottage hasnt been extended since 1964.
Simplifying matters, you cant go above the existing ridge and you should maintain the existing eaves level as well, which is easily done. 40 sq m is approx 420 sq ft which is a large area (15 x 28 etc).... you need to figure out what accommodation you want to end up with (or need!!) in order to determine how much of an extension is required.

On a job like this you really should engage a professional for advice. You should get the structure surveyed and measured, and get different options on extending. A simple T shaped or L shaped extension is usually most economical and easiest build, but other options are open depending on your budget etc.
The most important thing is to have a clear, concise, pre-determined brief ready for the professional when you meet them.

muffler · 31-01-2008 4:31pm

DJKAV wrote: »

hello need help please i`m buying an old cottage with four bedrooms on 1acre but i need to gut it and also build an extention and get the roof re done . i haven`t a clue where to start and if i want to build another two three rooms can i ? or do i have to live in it first ... i`m new to this ... help please ..

basically what i want to do is build at the back of the cottage and extend it but i don`t know how much i can build or how high?

kind regards ..
p.

This leaflet will help. You may also need to check with the local planning office to make sure the cottage isnt a listed building or located in a designated special area of conservation etc.

As advised get a bit of professional advice locally.

niamh1975 · 02-02-2008 2:59pm

Hi,

My husband and I are currently applying for PP in Co. Donegal. We have been advised that the NRA are objecting as our site is on a national road where the maximum permitted speed limit applies and that basicaly we will be bringing more traffic onto an already busy road. My entire extended family live here, parents, siblings, aunts & uncles etc. Can we use this as an arguement? Our children attend the local national school for the area also. The NRA have stated that they will appeal to An Bord Pleanala if the decision goes in our favour. Anyone have any ideas?

muffler · 02-02-2008 4:12pm

niamh1975 wrote: »

Hi,

My husband and I are currently applying for PP in Co. Donegal. We have been advised that the NRA are objecting as our site is on a national road where the maximum permitted speed limit applies and that basicaly we will be bringing more traffic onto an already busy road. My entire extended family live here, parents, siblings, aunts & uncles etc. Can we use this as an arguement? Our children attend the local national school for the area also. The NRA have stated that they will appeal to An Bord Pleanala if the decision goes in our favour. Anyone have any ideas?

Unless your family have a farm and which has no other access on to a regional or county road you wont get planning and that is subject to achieving the necessary vision lines. The NRA will most likely appeal a favourable decision but its down to individual cases.

The councils own development plan prevents them from granting permission other than in the circumstances mentioned above.

niamh1975 · 02-02-2008 11:36pm

Ok thanks Muffler, looks like we are onto a loser here. Back to the drawing board...

muffler · 03-02-2008 12:23am

niamh1975 wrote: »

Ok thanks Muffler, looks like we are onto a loser here. Back to the drawing board...

Dont give up without a fight though.

ballivor cobber · 06-02-2008 9:50pm

I heard recently that if you build without applying for planning permission and the building survives for seven years without complaints that retention should be automatically approved. Does anyone know about this?

smashey · 06-02-2008 9:51pm

ballivor cobber wrote: »

I heard recently that if you build without applying for planning permission and the building survives for seven years without complaints that retention should be automatically approved. Does anyone know about this?

I have deleted your other post as once is usually enough.

Why do you want clarification on this?

Jimbo · 06-02-2008 9:59pm

muffler wrote: »

You could always go to your local planning dept. and have a look through their map register (or online if its available) and identify other planning applications in the immediate area and see if any were for self contained units/houses. If there were a couple granted for proposals similar to yours there would be, as has been pointed out, an established precedent which could be helpful.

Dont give up without exploring all options first.

It would also need to be at least 45 sq/m (for one bed) according to new guidelines for apartments: DOE Apartment Design Standards << on last page

Mellor · 07-02-2008 10:39am

jimbo78 wrote: »

It would also need to be at least 45 sq/m (for one bed) according to new guidelines for apartments: DOE Apartment Design Standards << on last page

The above refers only to apartments. The minimum area for houses are lightly different. They are available online, the full list is more comprehensive.
Single story houses have a lower limit that similar apartments, two story houses are above the appartment limit. Its minor, be its good idea to have complete info up incase it matters to someone.

creme egg · 07-02-2008 3:25pm

Hi all,
This is very much pie in the sky at the moment but...
We are strongly thinking of buying a site close to Dunlavin. Some of our family live there (2 brothers) one only built there recently.
We want to buy the site before we start the planning application, as we will get it cheaper than going down the subject to planning route

From reading this thread I gather I might as well stand on Grafton street and give the money away, rather than have any hope of being granted planning permission. Is there any advise anyone would have, or anything we can do that might make our case stronger?

I am thinking we will be refused outright as we are not from the area, so not Local Needs.
Thanks creme egg

smashey · 07-02-2008 3:31pm

creme egg wrote: »

I am thinking we will be refused outright as we are not from the area, so not Local Needs.
Thanks creme egg

Are you going to work in the area?

Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

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