Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Do you think a referendum on abortion would be passed?(not how you'd vote)

Options
12357…29

Comments

  • Options
    #122
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    Like I said, I personally put more value on life. No one should get to decide who lives or dies in my opinion.

    Ok fair enough, that's your opinion, just as a matter of interest though what do you think of euthanasia and the death penalty?


  • Options
    #123
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,958 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    I also don't like how abortion is being framed as a religious issue, i have zero religious belief but still undecided about the issue, you hardly need to believe in god to think abortion is wrong, don't like how every pro life individual is made out as some religious nutter it's got nothing to do with religion.


  • Options
    #124
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    PressRun wrote: »
    Except plenty of people do think about it like that. Plenty of people would take a stance where they wouldn't personally have an abortion but won't object to other people doing whatever is right for them.

    And other people feel that they don't want killing unborn babies to be happening in their country the same as you don't want people to be killing each other even if it never directly effects them.


  • Options
    #125
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Ice Maiden wrote: »
    What about rape or unviable foetus?

    That brings me back a few years. A cousin of a friend gave birth to a child one passed within hours of birth. She knew due to a heart defect, the child would not make it. She had to watch her child die in her arms. If she or any woman had the option of an abortion, would they want to watch their new born die in their arms or know that the pregnancy would result in a still birth. Imagine the grief a woman or family would endure knowing someone is carrying a deceased child. I'd feel rotten putting someone through that.


  • Options
    #126
    Ice Maiden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Ice Maiden


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I was responding earlier to someones question about contraception failing.

    Your 2 scenarios are certainly a lot more complex, but I would agree with some what posters have said that it would be somewhat hypocritical to disagree with abortion in some cases but not others.

    So, in that respect, I guess I'm against abortion full stop.

    I guess its why this issue is so contentious, there is no easy answers and it is as far away from a black and white issue as you can get I feel.
    I don't think it's hypocritical at all to be in favour in some cases and not in others - the whole thing is so complex and nuanced that it seems impossible not to mirror it with complex, even inconsistent views.
    Personally I would prefer a person to be in favour in some cases and not in others, rather than just blanket for or against.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #127
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I was responding earlier to someones question about contraception failing.

    Your 2 scenarios are certainly a lot more complex, but I would agree with some what posters have said that it would be somewhat hypocritical to disagree with abortion in some cases but not others.

    So, in that respect, I guess I'm against abortion full stop.

    I guess its why this issue is so contentious, there is no easy answers and it is as far away from a black and white issue as you can get I feel.

    so you think it's acceptable under compilations to inform a woman she might die in order to try and save her foetus? Or to tell a woman that she must carry and deliver the child of her rapist?


  • Options
    #128
    Ice Maiden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Ice Maiden


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    I also don't like how abortion is being framed as a religious issue, i have zero religious belief but still undecided about the issue, you hardly need to believe in god to think abortion is wrong, don't like how every pro life individual is made out as some religious nutter it's got nothing to do with religion.
    An older gentleman of faith recently said to me religion should be left the heck out of it - it's a secular issue. Wise words IMO.


  • Options
    #129
    PressRun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭PressRun


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    And other people feel that they don't want killing unborn babies to be happening in their country the same as you don't want people to be killing each other even if it never directly effects them.

    Living, breathing people with families and friends and fulfilling lives > a foetus


  • Options
    #130
    Lau2976
    Registered Users Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭Lau2976


    I honestly don't understand people's argument for voting no. I don't think I ever will. I'm a staunch pro choicer politically. Privately is a different matter.

    But my personal belief doesn't need to be the same as my political one and if you can't distingush that then IMO you aren't mature enough to vote.

    To answer the op, I think it will depend on the wording of the referendum. But I do think that the younger generations who haven't had a chance to vote, and who this solely affects, will vote mostly in favour. It really comes down to whether or not the fewer younger anti choicer sand older generations out weigh those in terms of voter turn out.


  • Options
    #131
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Ice Maiden wrote: »
    An older gentleman of faith recently said to me religion should be left the heck out of it - it's a secular issue. Wise words IMO.

    Sadly, that's never the case. Just look at the Marriage Referendum and an attempt by some Religious People to engage freedom of conscience for the purpose of discrimination. Discrimination in any circumstance, Religious or otherwise should be outlawed. Granted, the Gardai and Army have exemptions and for good reason.

    We should not be allowed to discriminate or deny anyones rights, ever and no matter how passionately someone feels about a given topic.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #132
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Ok fair enough, that's your opinion, just as a matter of interest though what do you think of euthanasia and the death penalty?

    In terms of euthanasia, I've read the arguments for and against. If we're talking about it being a choice without limits, one of the points against was that if it became legal and "the norm", then you might reach a point where elderly people might feel like they are a burden on their families or society and may feel pressured into doing it. Suicidal people, who might otherwise think twice about committing suicide, might look at euthanasia and think "well, its fine in those cases, what's the big deal if I take my life as well?".

    I have no strong thoughts on the death penalty, other than I'm glad Ireland doesn't have it. It doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent in countries where it is legal either.

    Back to the case of abortion, there are states where it is legal to have an abortion if the couple aren't happy with the sex of the baby. An extreme example I know, but like I said earlier, its a slippery slope.


  • Options
    #133
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    And other people feel that they don't want killing unborn babies to be happening in their country the same as you don't want people to be killing each other even if it never directly effects them.

    Honestly why don't you (or do you?) go out and do as much as you can to help children who have already been born and need looking after, maybe adopt a few if you can, but what's the obsession with the unborn?


  • Options
    #134
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    I'm not sure how the abortion in cases of rape scenario would even work. Would you have to prove it? Name your alleged attacker? That would impede on their right to presumption of innocence if an abortion is automatically given, but rape trials take months if not years to be heard too.

    If you don't have to prove it, what's the point of the specification? If you DO have to prove it, to what legal standard? What evidence would be needed? Will DNA be needed? Do you need to have the DPP press charges to qualify? Will rape trials need to be done immediately? That has more constitutional ramifications on due process.

    Also, is that the kind of trauma anyone wants to put a rape victim through? Justifying their experience as "rape enough" for an abortion? Because there'll be people crying "but what about all those lying women looking for abortions!"

    It's an unworkable scenario, tbh. You're either pro-choice or you're not. Abortion happens in Ireland anyway, this is just a question of whether it should physically happen here.


  • Options
    #135
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I think abortion is the exact opposite of dealing with the consequences. Personally I put more value on life, and would expect people to act like grown ups and get on with dealing with the situation that has happened. Actions have consequences, its as simple as that.

    And if we're starting with a basis of everyone has the right to do whatever they like with and to their bodies, then I think we're on a very slippery slope.

    I got pregnant when I was a teenager, contraception failed. I never had an opinion either way on abortion but the minute I found out I was pregnant I knew I couldn't do it so I "dealt with the consequences" as you say.

    Now that I'm a mother I'd do absolutely anything for my child and I can honestly say that if I had an unplanned pregnancy abortion would be the most responsible choice in my circumstances. I know I could not be a decent parent to 2 children at this point in time. It doesn't mean it's what I would definitely choose or that the choice would be an easy one, but objectively I can hand on heart say it would be the most responsible choice, and it would be one that I would consider purely out of care and love for the child that I have now.


  • Options
    #136
    Arkady
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Arkady


    The problem of abortion has actually nothing to do with religion, or if you're an atheist or theist. The problem is there are actually two human lives involved not one, the mother and the child, and neither is guilty or deserves death either for the crime of another, or because someone forget to use contraception correctly.


  • Options
    #137
    sunshine and showers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭sunshine and showers


    "Didn't use contraception correctly" is such a bullshít argument, everyone knows (or should know) that contraception is not 100% effective even when used perfectly correctly. That's an over-simplification.


  • Options
    #138
    Ice Maiden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 600 ✭✭✭Ice Maiden


    Arkady wrote: »
    The problem of abortion has actually nothing to do with religion, or if you're an atheist or theist. The problem is there are actually two human lives involved not one, the mother and the child, and neither is guilty or deserves death either for the crime of another, or because someone forget to use contraception correctly.
    I'm not someone who thinks only the born = human life, but I don't think the unborn child becomes a human life until past the "bunch of cells" stage.


  • Options
    #139
    Toto Wolfcastle
    Registered Users Posts: 25,005 ✭✭✭✭Toto Wolfcastle


    I think it would be close but it would pass.

    I spoke to a 73 year old woman (very Catholic) about it recently and she said that she would vote in favour of abortion because it's happening anyway and the idea that women are coming home so soon after the procedure with no one looking after them is wrong. I thought it was a very reasoned argument. Whether a referendum passes or not, there's no denying that it's happening. It will continue to happen. It would just be better if it could happen in the woman's own country where she can be looked after in case of complications.


  • Options
    #140
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    In terms of euthanasia, I've read the arguments for and against. If we're talking about it being a choice without limits, one of the points against was that if it became legal and "the norm", then you might reach a point where elderly people might feel like they are a burden on their families or society and may feel pressured into doing it. Suicidal people, who might otherwise think twice about committing suicide, might look at euthanasia and think "well, its fine in those cases, what's the big deal if I take my life as well?".

    I have no strong thoughts on the death penalty, other than I'm glad Ireland doesn't have it. It doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent in countries where it is legal either.

    Personally I think euthanasia should be an option but obviously we don't ever want a situation where elderly people felt obliged to do it. I am aagainst the death penalty though, but anyway I'll get back on point
    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    Back to the case of abortion, there are states where it is legal to have an abortion if the couple aren't happy with the sex of the baby. An extreme example I know, but like I said earlier, its a slippery slope.

    That does seem like a frivolous reason, but I'd say 2 things I response to it. 1 I doubt very much that it would common reason for abortion and 2, harsh and all as it may seem, that is the parents choice, not yours or mine and who are we to dictate to them?


  • Options
    #141
    deseil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭deseil


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    "Didn't use contraception correctly" is such a bullshít argument, everyone knows (or should know) that contraception is not 100% effective even when used perfectly correctly. That's an over-simplification.

    Ye men know women are left with the baby!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #142
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    and 2, harsh and all as it may seem, that is the parents choice, not yours or mine and who are we to dictate to them?

    I'm sorry, but I could never agree with that. It puts such a base value on life that it makes me ill. Is that really a society we want to live in? To make a choice like that, as if we were choosing the colour of a car we were buying?

    I'm coming at the issue on the basis that life should be valued and looked after. That's based of my own feelings on the issue and life experiences I have had.

    The unborn don't have a voice, they aren't able to create posters, stickers, badges or Facebook pages or Twitter accounts or participate in debates.

    I think life should be given a chance in all circumstances. Our lives and circumstances can be cruel and extremely unfair at times, but I think at the end of it all we should try and deal with what life throws at us and I don't think ending a life at any stage should be the option.


  • Options
    #143
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but I could never agree with that. It puts such a base value on life that it makes me ill. Is that really a society we want to live in? To make a choice like that, as if we were choosing the colour of a car we were buying?

    The sad fact of the matter is, where is the concern for children living poverty at this very moment in time and not just poverty, but homelessness? Maybe we could concern ourselves less with abortion and more with those who are currently living, such as the impoverished and vulnerable who could actually do with help.


  • Options
    #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Honestly why don't you (or do you?) go out and do as much as you can to help children who have already been born and need looking after, maybe adopt a few if you can, but what's the obsession with the unborn?

    There is no obsession, I don't even think about it unless the topic is raised but I have a very strong opinion on it that I totally disagree with abortion and don't want to see it being allowed to happen here, unfortunately we can't make the Uk etc change their laws to ban it.

    I don't need to go out and adopt children to enable me have an opinion on abortion.


  • Options
    #145
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭emo72


    im semi clueless here. some questions.

    if the 8th is just removed and not replaced does that mean abortion would be legal and anyone could have one?

    enda kenny mentioned a "convention" to find out what to do. he wants to replace the 8th with something else and have limited abortion in some cases?

    so basically if the 8th was just scrapped it would just a medical thing between a woman and her doctor? private?


  • Options
    #146
    Spudman_20000
    Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Spudman_20000


    Itzy wrote: »
    The sad fact of the matter is, where is the concern for children living poverty at this very moment in time and not just poverty, but homelessness? Maybe we could concern ourselves less with abortion and more with those who are currently living, such as the impoverished and vulnerable who could actually do with help.

    Are you saying that we should hold off on a referendum on abortion until we have solved these issues?

    Or are you saying that allowing abortion would solve these issues?

    I don't understand the point you're trying to make.


  • Options
    #147
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    emo72 wrote: »
    so basically if the 8th was just scrapped it would just a medical thing between a woman and her doctor? private?
    That's basically how the law stands in Canada at the moment and it seems to work just fine there.


  • Options
    #148
    donkeykongwar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2 ✭donkeykongwar


    sunshine and showers wrote: »
    "Didn't use contraception correctly" is such a bullshít argument, everyone knows (or should know) that contraception is not 100% effective even when used perfectly correctly. That's an over-simplification.

    sure but it is 99% effective.

    anyway if conservative and religious meant the old days of ireland with less shootings less murders less bullies less suicides less alcohol related deaths, then my modern new-age nazi friends? i wouldnt even vote... worlds already fuked and theres no turning back. ill give capitalism another century before we nuke most the planet.


  • Options
    #149
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but I could never agree with that. It puts such a base value on life that it makes me ill. Is that really a society we want to live in? To make a choice like that, as if we were choosing the colour of a car we were buying?.

    I don't agree with someone making that sort of frivolous choice either, but again I'd imagine it would be exceptionally rare. Just to add though I feel terrible when I hear harrowing stories of women having to travel to England for an abortion and then have their baby's remains sent back to them because their own state refuses to look after them, plenty of things can make you feel ill.
    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I'm coming at the issue on the basis that life should be valued and looked after. That's based of my own feelings on the issue and life experiences I have had.

    For the 3rd time on this thread I have to ask (I haven't asked you specifically 3 times though), why not go out and do as much as you can to help children that are already born and need help, why does the unborn get preference over the born?
    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    The unborn don't have a voice, they aren't able to create posters, stickers, badges or Facebook pages or Twitter accounts or participate in debates.

    You're right they can't do any of those things, infact they can't do anything at all without their mother. All they have is everything that their mother gives them when they're growing in her womb, there is no 'unborn' without it's mother, she is of vital importance here, that's why I give preference to the mother.
    Spudman_20000 wrote: »
    I think life should be given a chance in all circumstances. Our lives and circumstances can be cruel and extremely unfair at times, but I think at the end of it all we should try and deal with what life throws at us and I don't think ending a life at any stage should be the option.

    I disagree, abortion should be an option for women, prohibition isn't working anyway so why plough ahead with a proven failure?


  • Options
    #150
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Selene Dry Apartment wrote: »
    There is no obsession, I don't even think about it unless the topic is raised but I have a very strong opinion on it that I totally disagree with abortion and don't want to see it being allowed to happen here, unfortunately we can make the Uk etc change their laws to ban it.

    I don't need to go out and adopt children to enable me have an opinion on abortion.

    I didn't say you did need to adopt to have an opinion on abortion. I just made the point that I find it strange that self proclaimed 'pro-lifers' seem to really only passionately care about 'unborn babies' and not so much about born children who need help.

    It's strange and inconsistent morality.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #151
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,802 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    emo72 wrote: »

    so basically if the 8th was just scrapped it would just a medical thing between a woman and her doctor? private?


    The POLDP Act 3013 makes abortion illegal except in specific circumstances where the life of the mother is substantially at risk. The previous act - the Offences against the Person Act 1861 is, I believe, still in force and also makes abortion illegal, just as it did before the 1983 Ammendment was passed. Removing the Ammendment wouldn't make abortion legal (without further legislation).

    (It would however, at least prevent some of the shocking cases we've seen such as the case that went through the courts last Christmas involving a brain dead woman in early pregnancy. )


Advertisement