Luas - a system in decline

LollipopJimmy · 13-10-2019 3:09pm #1

I've been using the Luas a good bit the last 12 months having moved to a City Centre office and tbh it's a complete ****show, every day overcrowded trams are too full to take more passengers. Nearly every day so far in October there have been delays on each line due to signalling faults or failed trams (this doesn't include traffic incidents or protest marches)

Transdev don't seem to care, dept of transport don't care. The system is obviously aging but I dont get why the number of trams in service is so low at any given time, it seems the point of the service is to drive as much profit out of it as possible.

trellheim · 13-10-2019 3:34pm

I work beside a LUAS red line core station and its every couple of minutes ... just looked it up its 4 thats 15 trams an hour or thereabouts in either direction which is fairly good in my view

godtabh · 13-10-2019 3:37pm

Transdev are the operator fulfilling a service level agreement with TII. They have no control over many things.

hmmm · 13-10-2019 3:52pm

Transdev are being unfairly blamed.

The LUAS is suffering because it is a great light-rail system, and our planners have decided to treat it like heavy rail - putting more and more load on it. There seems to be this fantasy in the minds of planners at all levels, who despite the evidence of their own eyes that the system is overloaded, keep thinking there is ever more capacity available to cope with thousands of more people.

The system is bordering on unusable at peak hours in certain areas. That unusability will spread as numbers using the system increase.

We either tackle this by reducing the numbers using it, by reducing building along the line, or we upgrade it to Metro as has been the obvious answer all along. The interests of a few SUV drivers seem to be coming ahead of the interests of tens of thousands of commuters.

BDI · 13-10-2019 4:04pm

Can it not just buy a couple of extra carriages for rush hour?

It’s regular enough I work near it it’s every few minutes.

LollipopJimmy · 13-10-2019 4:53pm

trellheim wrote: »

I work beside a LUAS red line core station and its every couple of minutes ... just looked it up its 4 thats 15 trams an hour or thereabouts in either direction which is fairly good in my view

If it actually ran to that frequency it would be fine, the thing is faults and delays are happening every day, if you look at the twitter page there have been faults nearly every day in October

antimatterx · 13-10-2019 4:54pm

I take the green line every day. The Luas is every few minutes usually. If the Luas is packed, and it won't be a comfortable ride, I'll wait for the next one (usually within 3-4 minutes), and it'll be a much more enjoyable commute.

It's honestly a fine system that works.

L1011 · 13-10-2019 5:21pm

Additional stock for the Green Line is due next year and the shorter units are being extended.

dhaughton99 · 13-10-2019 5:27pm

BDI wrote: »

Can it not just buy a couple of extra carriages for rush hour?

It’s regular enough I work near it it’s every few minutes.

Didn’t they try that already but caused traffic havoc when it stopped at certain stops and ended up blocking junctions.

strandroad · 13-10-2019 5:34pm

antimatterx wrote: »

I take the green line every day. The Luas is every few minutes usually. If the Luas is packed, and it won't be a comfortable ride, I'll wait for the next one (usually within 3-4 minutes), and it'll be a much more enjoyable commute.
.

Some stops are like this bit on others you have to let 3 or even 4 trams pass for the overcrowding to ease at peak.

LeinsterDub · 13-10-2019 5:41pm

Luas like the dart and buses are suffering from chronic under investment caused by this government and the minister for Stepaside Garda station who doesn't care.

Ready4Boarding · 13-10-2019 6:03pm

And yet politicians in opposition to MetroLink were allowed maintain that the Luas shouldn't be "ripped up," etc. And Eamon Ryan fueled that opposition by bleating about a south-west routing at twenty times the cost. It is absolutely appalling that the line won't be upgraded.

On another note...the speed at which the Luas is forced to navigate the city significantly reduces capacity. There should be greater segregation, less opportunity for pedestrians to wander on to the tracks, preferential traffic-light phasing, strict enforcement of traffic laws in the city and pedestrianisation of College Green. All of those is beyond our feeble institutions, though.

Bebra · 13-10-2019 6:36pm

hmmm wrote: »

Transdev are being unfairly blamed.

We either tackle this by reducing the numbers using it, by reducing building along the line, or we upgrade it to Metro as has been the obvious answer all along. The interests of a few SUV drivers seem to be coming ahead of the interests of tens of thousands of commuters.

I'm not familiar with areas around the green line(or the proposed extension) but crowding on the red line will only get worse and it can't be upgraded to Metro. According to my local paper, plans for over 2000 apartments have been lodged across different sites in the Belgard Road and Cookstown area and just under 600 apartments at Citywest. South Dublin County Council's own development plan is predicting up to 38000 new residents for the Tallaght town centre area over the next 20 years, and besides this, there's plenty of greenfield sites near Citywest which will almost certainly undergo development.

Eric Cartman · 13-10-2019 6:58pm

the problem is developers mad for the free price bonus building property near the luas brings, theyre falling over themselves to outdo any possible passenger number projections that anyone could have seen. Its going to get to the point where rush hour services resemble japanese train overcrowding.

irishgeo · 13-10-2019 7:11pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the problem is developers mad for the free price bonus building property near the luas brings, theyre falling over themselves to outdo any possible passenger number projections that anyone could have seen. Its going to get to the point where rush hour services resemble japanese train overcrowding.

Are transdev staff going to start shoving people in to trams to get more on.

ligerdub · 13-10-2019 7:32pm

The Luas is probably the only jewel in the crown of what is an abysmal public transport system in Dublin. The only plus point about Dublin's transport system and demoralising setup for people trying to get to and from work/school/college is that it's not as bad as Galway, a place with some of the worst commute speeds in Europe.

I used to work in Sandyford and by and large I could predict to the minute how long it would take me to get to work once I reached Stephens Green, and the same in terms of a return journey in the evenings to reach Stephens Green. Granted that was 4 years ago now, but I could probably count on 1 hand the number of days where I was genuinely put out by a lack of service or delays over the course of about 40 months. It's just a pity that the bus leg of the journey was terrible both ways.

My main complaint about the Luas is how slow it is, particularly in the city. I understand why that is, but I think they could have done more to make faster speeds in central areas more feasible. Aside from that I'd not have too many complaints. If there's been a ramp up in activity it's also possibly down to the fact that the alternatives are so unreliable that people will gladly go out of their way to get to their nearest Luas.

The whole transport system is in need of a proper upgrade, and it won't be solved by bus services and by having inbuilt procrastination by incorporating conversations about running through people's gardens. These are just deliberately provocative moves in order to not spend any significant money on transport. Think of any place in the world with a good transport system and I guarantee you nobody there is talking about the quality of their bus networks.

Eric Cartman · 13-10-2019 7:32pm

irishgeo wrote: »

Are transdev staff going to start shoving people in to trams to get more on.

id imagine their union would demand 150k a year for the drivers for it...

mcginty28 · 13-10-2019 7:49pm

LollipopJimmy wrote:

If it actually ran to that frequency it would be fine, the thing is faults and delays are happening every day, if you look at the twitter page there have been faults nearly every day in October

Transdev up to now do not maintain the trams or the infrastructure. A separate company, Alstom have the contract for tram maintenance and infrastructure maintenance and are to blame for the recent service disruptions. They cannot provide the required amount of trams each day for service and the signal faults are their responsibility also. Some of the issues been down to lack of parts to repair faults and a shortage of competent staff . Many have left in the past couple of years and have not been replaced with the same level of knowledge. For most of these issues they are fined by Tii for not meeting their contract obligations. Due to their failings the past couple of years they have now lost the tender for the new contract going forward and have being going through the motions the past couple of months and not worried about providing a decent service. Their current contract ends start of dec. So basically the abysmal service of late lies at their door.

hmmm · 13-10-2019 7:57pm

Bebra wrote: »

South Dublin County Council's own development plan is predicting up to 38000 new residents for the Tallaght town centre area over the next 20 years, and besides this, there's plenty of greenfield sites near Citywest which will almost certainly undergo development.

Yep, the LUAS is treated as if it is has almost unlimited capacity.

The recent Ballyogan local area plan (Southside beyond Sandyford) is planning to double the population in that area. They have been told that the LUAS can cope with the extra people. At the moment, empty LUAS can be run from Sandyford because the Brides Glen LUAS line is not at full capacity - those empty LUAS are the only reason people can get on at Dundrum & beyond. What do they think happens when they have to run more trams out Brides Glen direction, and there is less capacity for spare Stillorgan trams?

is_that_so · 13-10-2019 7:59pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Luas like the dart and buses are suffering from chronic under investment caused by this government and the minister for Stepaside Garda station who doesn't care.

Much as people love to loathe said minister and by extension the current government, it's been a very long-term issue. Plans have been proposed but there's lot of catching up to do once we get past the talking.

Fritzbox · 13-10-2019 8:07pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Much as people love to loathe said minister and by extension the current government, it's been a very long-term issue. Plans have been proposed but there's lot of catching up to do once we get past the talking.

Transport in Dublin has a lot of catching up alright.

I'd estimate it at around 40 years or so. Many of Europe's medium sized national and regional Capital cities got their first underground metro lines in the 1960s or seventies.

mcginty28 · 13-10-2019 8:08pm

hmmm wrote:

The recent Ballyogan local area plan (Southside beyond Sandyford) is planning to double the population in that area. They have been told that the LUAS can cope with the extra people. At the moment, empty LUAS can be run from Sandyford because the Brides Glen LUAS line is not at full capacity - those empty LUAS are the only reason people can get on at Dundrum & beyond. What do they think happens when they have to run more trams out Brides Glen direction, and there is less capacity for spare Stillorgan trams?

Yep it's only gonna get worse when the new cherry wood development is up and running. Theres only so many extra trams that can be sent out, signals etc will not cope with a frequency of less than 3-4 mins. Amazing how many people still wait til about 8.30am to use it and complain about the crowds. Get up earlier and avoid the carnage or suck it up. Tube is no different at peak times.

Nika Bolokov · 13-10-2019 8:23pm

It's well past capacity on the Green route and thats with the huge Clay Farm development in Ballyogan beside the old tip to come on stream not to mention Cherrywood further up.

LollipopJimmy · 13-10-2019 8:41pm

irishgeo wrote: »

Are transdev staff going to start shoving people in to trams to get more on.

Already happens at Heuston in the mornings

fly_agaric · 13-10-2019 8:48pm

ligerdub wrote: »

Think of any place in the world with a good transport system and I guarantee you nobody there is talking about the quality of their bus networks.

The joke is, roll out of these new "QBCs" or whatever will begin 2021 at the earliest to be finished by 2027...assuming everything runs smoothly with trying to shove politically noisy car drivers off the road, cpo those front gardens and fell those suburban trees etc. So possibly 8 years of new developments, hotels, apartments, student accomodation etc in Dublin with zero public transport infrastructure projects to take any of these peolple where they want to go.
Maybe they are expecting/praying for a new economic collapse to come along and relieve the pressure!:pac:

ohographite · 13-10-2019 9:27pm

Is running longer trams on the red line a feasible option?
I know the trams on the red line are smaller than most of the ones on the green line.
What I mean is buying new longer trams for the red line.

markpb · 13-10-2019 9:33pm

mcginty28 wrote: »

Amazing how many people still wait til about 8.30am to use it and complain about the crowds. Get up earlier and avoid the carnage or suck it up. Tube is no different at peak times.

Nice glib answer but it’s busy long before 8:30, especially south of Sandyford.

ohographite wrote: »

Is running longer trams on the red line a feasible option?

Longer stops needed to serve longer trams would block some junctions apparently.

Jamie2k9 · 13-10-2019 10:04pm

If passengers removed bags you could fit a lot more people on trams/DARTS.

magicbastarder · 13-10-2019 10:05pm

removed them? off seats? or in general?

LeinsterDub · 13-10-2019 10:09pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Much as people love to loathe said minister and by extension the current government, it's been a very long-term issue. Plans have been proposed but there's lot of catching up to do once we get past the talking.

It's not a long term issue. They knew the dart would be over capacity 5 years ago and only ordered the new sets this year. Dart expansion has been delayed for decades. This government could have fast tracked that. The government have pushed back bus connects. They done nothing to encourage cycling or even operating a school bus. Pathetic

Jamie2k9 · 13-10-2019 10:17pm

hmmm wrote: »

Transdev are being unfairly blamed.

The LUAS is suffering because it is a great light-rail system, and our planners have decided to treat it like heavy rail - putting more and more load on it. There seems to be this fantasy in the minds of planners at all levels, who despite the evidence of their own eyes that the system is overloaded, keep thinking there is ever more capacity available to cope with thousands of more people.

The system is bordering on unusable at peak hours in certain areas. That unusability will spread as numbers using the system increase.

We either tackle this by reducing the numbers using it, by reducing building along the line, or we upgrade it to Metro as has been the obvious answer all along. The interests of a few SUV drivers seem to be coming ahead of the interests of tens of thousands of commuters.

Really, in my experience its non-compliance and enforcement of road traffic laws cause a huge amount of disruption. Every rule break that delays a Luas causes 2-3 minutes minimum and that stacks up on other services quickly.

What is not acceptable and needs to be addressed is the "regular" failures Domonic-BBridge, Belgard-Saggart.

Even with it's problems, disruption is still not a major issue and remember there is no set timetable (officially) operating.

Jamie2k9 · 13-10-2019 10:18pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

removed them? off seats? or in general?

Off there backs.

machaseh · 14-10-2019 11:29am

mcginty28 wrote: »

Yep it's only gonna get worse when the new cherry wood development is up and running. Theres only so many extra trams that can be sent out, signals etc will not cope with a frequency of less than 3-4 mins. Amazing how many people still wait til about 8.30am to use it and complain about the crowds. Get up earlier and avoid the carnage or suck it up. Tube is no different at peak times.

Not everybody has a choice on when to commute. My work starts at 8 so I use the green luas before the most busy time (also from city to southside, so against the main peak direction) but not everybody has this option.

Cherrywood site is going to be really big as well as other developments along the line. A good start would be to expand the current terminus at brides glen so it has room for at least 3 trams at a time (currently only 2), so that all trams can run to brides glen rather than terminate at sandyford.

TheIrishGrover · 14-10-2019 11:41am

Ready4Boarding wrote: »

.....preferential traffic-light phasing......

I just browsed through this thread. Not usually in the commuting forums but this always makes me laugh: seeing the Luas stopping at lights to let traffic pass. I don't use the luas regularly so won't comment on the day-in-day-out experience but the odd time I do use it I find it fine.

But yeah, seeing a tram stopping at Stoneybattey to let cars pass? Madness. Of course they should have 100% of non-emergency right of way. My God!

SusieBlue · 14-10-2019 11:59am

I'm not from Dublin but used the Luas recently while in the city.

It was overfull to the point of being a health hazard, people were shoved up against the wall and everything. At one point a pedestrian ran out in front of the Luas causing the driver to slam on the brakes and for it to come to a sudden stop. Everyone fell backwards, some people on top of each other, piling up on the floor.
A couple of people were hurt but not badly and everyone got a fright.
I wouldn't be particularly claustraphobic but I was shaking getting off it. Its dangerous at those capacities and someone is going to get badly hurt one of these days.

Experience_day · 14-10-2019 12:08pm

The green line isn't that bad.

The red line however is a disaster.

It is SO SLOW! Far too many stops, takes an insane amount of time to get from Tallaght to town. You can easily cycle faster which is crazy.

PhilOssophy · 14-10-2019 12:11pm

Like every other public transport mechanism, the Luas needs investment, upgrade, segregation, better frequency, to improve.
We will rue the day we gave into a few NIMBYISTS in Dublin 6. Maybe at some stage a politician might say tough sh*t, the needs of the many outweigh those of those who don't need to use it at rush hour.

LollipopJimmy · 14-10-2019 12:14pm

Just to take it back a step, a couple of people have said the frequency is fine and in the main it is, however on an almosy daily basis (no exaggeration) there are breakdowns of trams and/or equipment which seems to cause major delays and the knock on effect will usually last for hours.

Plus the lifts, the lifts are actually a running joke, there never seems to be a full compliment of them working which makes it more than difficult for wheelchair users

Ready4Boarding · 14-10-2019 12:24pm

I've heard it mentioned on and off for years but I wonder whether the layout of carriages could be reconsidered. Removing seats would likely increase capacity by half. Perhaps there should be only limited seating for those with mobility issues. I don't know the practicalities of removing seats from existing carriages, but it could be an interim measure before more stock come online.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

We will rue the day we gave into a few NIMBYISTS in Dublin 6. Maybe at some stage a politician might say tough sh*t, the needs of the many outweigh those of those who don't need to use it at rush hour.

I think there's little doubt that that's what the NTA expects will happen. There's no way they'd give up so easily otherwise knowing how essential the upgrade is.

vrusinov · 14-10-2019 12:32pm

As far as I see, planners are (mostly) doing their job. It's quite obvious that it is very difficult to significantly increase capacity of current Luas lines. We are getting new trams but the proper solution is elsewhere: take a look at extensive consultations for Bus Connects and Metrolink. Both projects would relieve pressure on Luas (mostly green line though but I hope there will be follow-up projects).

Now, take a look at why they are going so slow. Then consider writing to your local 'community not corridor' and 'think about children' politician who oppose these projects, and vote accordingly next time.

Experience_day · 14-10-2019 12:33pm

Ready4Boarding wrote: »

I've heard it mentioned on and off for years but I wonder whether the layout of carriages could be reconsidered. Removing seats would likely increase capacity by half. Perhaps there should be only limited seating for those with mobility issues. I don't know the practicalities of removing seats from existing carriages, but it could be an interim measure before more stock come online.
.

Problem is all the scummy junkies and the like will sit there hand down their trackies taking them up regardless and the people who need it will suffer.

I think it's a great idea though.

edit: also, a trip from tallaght to busaras is around an hour. some people would struggle a lot, or would end up driving them to driving (which is a situation I find myself in!)

markpb · 14-10-2019 1:49pm

machaseh wrote: »

A good start would be to expand the current terminus at brides glen so it has room for at least 3 trams at a time (currently only 2), so that all trams can run to brides glen rather than terminate at sandyford.

Starting trams at Sandyford (northbound) is the only reason people between Sandyford and Dundrum can get on at all.

LollipopJimmy · 14-10-2019 2:17pm

From 7.30 to 9 the red line is rammed by the time it gets to Kylemore. I ran into work today from Blackhorse to Baggot St rather than deal with it.

sharper · 14-10-2019 2:25pm

Every mode of transport is operating beyond its design capacity. The road network, train, bus and LUAS. Everything is crammed and the issue facing people now isn't just cost, reliability or travel time but whether they'll actually be able to fit onto the next service.

Government planning around this is very much "Business as usual" when it's actually a crisis and has been for at least two years, only now it's verging into territory where an accident will lead to a significant number of injuries. As mentioned earlier Bus Connects is supposed to be the quick/cheap route to improving capacity and nothing will happen with it for years and it won't be fully implemented until 2027.

Unlike something like housing where the government lacks direct control transport is wholly owned by government policy and funding.

machaseh · 14-10-2019 3:07pm

markpb wrote: »

Starting trams at Sandyford (northbound) is the only reason people between Sandyford and Dundrum can get on at all.

Of course even after the capacity at the Brides Glen terminus is increased, we would still require some peak-hour only services servering sandyford - parnell directly.

I am not sure if there would be room for a third track on some of the line, but it should be something they should seriously start looking at in the near future. If you would have a third track tram between for example sandyford and St Stephens Green, you could introduce express and local trams, increasing both capacity and travel time . These trams would serve only limited stops on that portion of the route.

Jamie2k9 · 14-10-2019 3:15pm

There is no capacity issue at B Glen, the fleet cannot offer a 3 min freq between B Bridge and B Glen.

LeinsterDub · 14-10-2019 3:20pm

Experience_day wrote: »

The green line isn't that bad.

The red line however is a disaster.

It is SO SLOW! Far too many stops, takes an insane amount of time to get from Tallaght to town. You can easily cycle faster which is crazy.

Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin

machaseh · 14-10-2019 3:26pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no capacity issue at B Glen, the fleet cannot offer a 3 min freq between B Bridge and B Glen.

Not yet. But they are building an enormous campus with shops, more offices and residential apartments at Brides glen, as well as various other construction work on the southern portion of the green line.

Within about 5 years from now, we are certainly going to need full LUAS capacity between brides glen and sandyfort. They will need to order new trams and build an extra track or two at the brides glen terminus (shouldn't be that hard to do honestly).

Experience_day · 14-10-2019 3:30pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin

Tallaght well outside m50 and still quicker! Mental stuff. Not to mention Luas closes at 12:30am so difficult to have a proper night out without hassle of taxi's etc.

magicbastarder · 14-10-2019 3:35pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin

i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.

PhilOssophy · 14-10-2019 3:38pm

The problem with the Luas, just like every other form of public transport, is that we have forced everybody into commuting because the density of housing in Dublin City Centre is just not what it needs to be.
Not necessarily high-rise, but high-density - and even high-rise if necessary, has to be the way to go. It takes some pressure off these transport links, at least temporarily.

Luas - a system in decline

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