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Luas - a system in decline

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,435 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    hmmm wrote: »
    Transdev are being unfairly blamed.

    The LUAS is suffering because it is a great light-rail system, and our planners have decided to treat it like heavy rail - putting more and more load on it. There seems to be this fantasy in the minds of planners at all levels, who despite the evidence of their own eyes that the system is overloaded, keep thinking there is ever more capacity available to cope with thousands of more people.

    The system is bordering on unusable at peak hours in certain areas. That unusability will spread as numbers using the system increase.

    We either tackle this by reducing the numbers using it, by reducing building along the line, or we upgrade it to Metro as has been the obvious answer all along. The interests of a few SUV drivers seem to be coming ahead of the interests of tens of thousands of commuters.

    Really, in my experience its non-compliance and enforcement of road traffic laws cause a huge amount of disruption. Every rule break that delays a Luas causes 2-3 minutes minimum and that stacks up on other services quickly.

    What is not acceptable and needs to be addressed is the "regular" failures Domonic-BBridge, Belgard-Saggart.

    Even with it's problems, disruption is still not a major issue and remember there is no set timetable (officially) operating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,435 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    removed them? off seats? or in general?

    Off there backs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    mcginty28 wrote: »
    Yep it's only gonna get worse when the new cherry wood development is up and running. Theres only so many extra trams that can be sent out, signals etc will not cope with a frequency of less than 3-4 mins. Amazing how many people still wait til about 8.30am to use it and complain about the crowds. Get up earlier and avoid the carnage or suck it up. Tube is no different at peak times.

    Not everybody has a choice on when to commute. My work starts at 8 so I use the green luas before the most busy time (also from city to southside, so against the main peak direction) but not everybody has this option.

    Cherrywood site is going to be really big as well as other developments along the line. A good start would be to expand the current terminus at brides glen so it has room for at least 3 trams at a time (currently only 2), so that all trams can run to brides glen rather than terminate at sandyford.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭ TheIrishGrover


    .....preferential traffic-light phasing......

    I just browsed through this thread. Not usually in the commuting forums but this always makes me laugh: seeing the Luas stopping at lights to let traffic pass. I don't use the luas regularly so won't comment on the day-in-day-out experience but the odd time I do use it I find it fine.

    But yeah, seeing a tram stopping at Stoneybattey to let cars pass? Madness. Of course they should have 100% of non-emergency right of way. My God! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭ SusieBlue


    I'm not from Dublin but used the Luas recently while in the city.

    It was overfull to the point of being a health hazard, people were shoved up against the wall and everything. At one point a pedestrian ran out in front of the Luas causing the driver to slam on the brakes and for it to come to a sudden stop. Everyone fell backwards, some people on top of each other, piling up on the floor.
    A couple of people were hurt but not badly and everyone got a fright.
    I wouldn't be particularly claustraphobic but I was shaking getting off it. Its dangerous at those capacities and someone is going to get badly hurt one of these days.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭ Experience_day


    The green line isn't that bad.

    The red line however is a disaster.

    It is SO SLOW! Far too many stops, takes an insane amount of time to get from Tallaght to town. You can easily cycle faster which is crazy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ PhilOssophy


    Like every other public transport mechanism, the Luas needs investment, upgrade, segregation, better frequency, to improve.
    We will rue the day we gave into a few NIMBYISTS in Dublin 6. Maybe at some stage a politician might say tough sh*t, the needs of the many outweigh those of those who don't need to use it at rush hour.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭ LollipopJimmy


    Just to take it back a step, a couple of people have said the frequency is fine and in the main it is, however on an almosy daily basis (no exaggeration) there are breakdowns of trams and/or equipment which seems to cause major delays and the knock on effect will usually last for hours.

    Plus the lifts, the lifts are actually a running joke, there never seems to be a full compliment of them working which makes it more than difficult for wheelchair users


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 143 ✭✭ Ready4Boarding


    I've heard it mentioned on and off for years but I wonder whether the layout of carriages could be reconsidered. Removing seats would likely increase capacity by half. Perhaps there should be only limited seating for those with mobility issues. I don't know the practicalities of removing seats from existing carriages, but it could be an interim measure before more stock come online.
    We will rue the day we gave into a few NIMBYISTS in Dublin 6. Maybe at some stage a politician might say tough sh*t, the needs of the many outweigh those of those who don't need to use it at rush hour.

    I think there's little doubt that that's what the NTA expects will happen. There's no way they'd give up so easily otherwise knowing how essential the upgrade is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭ vrusinov


    As far as I see, planners are (mostly) doing their job. It's quite obvious that it is very difficult to significantly increase capacity of current Luas lines. We are getting new trams but the proper solution is elsewhere: take a look at extensive consultations for Bus Connects and Metrolink. Both projects would relieve pressure on Luas (mostly green line though but I hope there will be follow-up projects).

    Now, take a look at why they are going so slow. Then consider writing to your local 'community not corridor' and 'think about children' politician who oppose these projects, and vote accordingly next time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭ Experience_day


    I've heard it mentioned on and off for years but I wonder whether the layout of carriages could be reconsidered. Removing seats would likely increase capacity by half. Perhaps there should be only limited seating for those with mobility issues. I don't know the practicalities of removing seats from existing carriages, but it could be an interim measure before more stock come online.
    .


    Problem is all the scummy junkies and the like will sit there hand down their trackies taking them up regardless and the people who need it will suffer.


    I think it's a great idea though.

    edit: also, a trip from tallaght to busaras is around an hour. some people would struggle a lot, or would end up driving them to driving (which is a situation I find myself in!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,727 ✭✭✭ markpb


    machaseh wrote: »
    A good start would be to expand the current terminus at brides glen so it has room for at least 3 trams at a time (currently only 2), so that all trams can run to brides glen rather than terminate at sandyford.

    Starting trams at Sandyford (northbound) is the only reason people between Sandyford and Dundrum can get on at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭ LollipopJimmy


    From 7.30 to 9 the red line is rammed by the time it gets to Kylemore. I ran into work today from Blackhorse to Baggot St rather than deal with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭ sharper


    Every mode of transport is operating beyond its design capacity. The road network, train, bus and LUAS. Everything is crammed and the issue facing people now isn't just cost, reliability or travel time but whether they'll actually be able to fit onto the next service.

    Government planning around this is very much "Business as usual" when it's actually a crisis and has been for at least two years, only now it's verging into territory where an accident will lead to a significant number of injuries. As mentioned earlier Bus Connects is supposed to be the quick/cheap route to improving capacity and nothing will happen with it for years and it won't be fully implemented until 2027.

    Unlike something like housing where the government lacks direct control transport is wholly owned by government policy and funding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    markpb wrote: »
    Starting trams at Sandyford (northbound) is the only reason people between Sandyford and Dundrum can get on at all.

    Of course even after the capacity at the Brides Glen terminus is increased, we would still require some peak-hour only services servering sandyford - parnell directly.

    I am not sure if there would be room for a third track on some of the line, but it should be something they should seriously start looking at in the near future. If you would have a third track tram between for example sandyford and St Stephens Green, you could introduce express and local trams, increasing both capacity and travel time . These trams would serve only limited stops on that portion of the route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,435 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    There is no capacity issue at B Glen, the fleet cannot offer a 3 min freq between B Bridge and B Glen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    The green line isn't that bad.

    The red line however is a disaster.

    It is SO SLOW! Far too many stops, takes an insane amount of time to get from Tallaght to town. You can easily cycle faster which is crazy.

    Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    There is no capacity issue at B Glen, the fleet cannot offer a 3 min freq between B Bridge and B Glen.

    Not yet. But they are building an enormous campus with shops, more offices and residential apartments at Brides glen, as well as various other construction work on the southern portion of the green line.

    Within about 5 years from now, we are certainly going to need full LUAS capacity between brides glen and sandyfort. They will need to order new trams and build an extra track or two at the brides glen terminus (shouldn't be that hard to do honestly).


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭ Experience_day


    Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin


    Tallaght well outside m50 and still quicker! Mental stuff. Not to mention Luas closes at 12:30am so difficult to have a proper night out without hassle of taxi's etc.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 41,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Most journeys within the M50 are quicker by bike in Dublin
    i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
    it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭ PhilOssophy


    The problem with the Luas, just like every other form of public transport, is that we have forced everybody into commuting because the density of housing in Dublin City Centre is just not what it needs to be.
    Not necessarily high-rise, but high-density - and even high-rise if necessary, has to be the way to go. It takes some pressure off these transport links, at least temporarily.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    Tallaght well outside m50 and still quicker! Mental stuff. Not to mention Luas closes at 12:30am so difficult to have a proper night out without hassle of taxi's etc.

    12:30 AM is actually pretty late, you can still have plenty of pints then take the last luas home.

    If you really wanna stay for a lock in or go to the George or whatever, there is always the Nitelink buses on friday and saturday night.

    I never took a taxi all the way to Tallaght when I used to live there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭ Experience_day


    i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
    it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.


    Used to use the green line its a pleasure in terms of speed compared to red.




    machaseh wrote: »
    12:30 AM is actually pretty late, you can still have plenty of pints then take the last luas home.

    If you really wanna stay for a lock in or go to the George or whatever, there is always the Nitelink buses on friday and saturday night.

    I never took a taxi all the way to Tallaght when I used to live there.


    Eh, it's not so late? Obviously a proper night out (no george thanks...) is grand, I'm just talking about just missing the luas. Nightbus is a looooong wait.


    But regardless I'd put up with that, if the luas time dropped to 30 mins. Would save me so much commuting time!


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭ machaseh


    Used to use the green line its a pleasure in terms of speed compared to red.








    Eh, it's not so late? Obviously a proper night out (no george thanks...) is grand, I'm just talking about just missing the luas. Nightbus is a looooong wait.


    But regardless I'd put up with that, if the luas time dropped to 30 mins. Would save me so much commuting time!

    The nite link goes every hour. 12, 1, 2, 3 AM. If you just plan it a bit you shouldn't have to wait such a long time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭ Antares35


    Always overcrowded. Assaulted on it once with no justice. Every other day it seems to just randomly turf everyone out at Black Horse. They tell you tickets are valid on Dublin Bus - what buses? The ones driving through Inchicore that are already full? I'd say 70% of users don't pay their fare.

    Went back to driving to work some time ago and I don't know myself. I also don't feel in any way bad. You can't encourage people to use public transport when there is a high risk of assault and you miss important meetings on a regular basis because the p*xy thing lets you down again and again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭ Antares35


    markpb wrote: »
    Nice glib answer but it’s busy long before 8:30, especially south of Sandyford.



    Longer stops needed to serve longer trams would block some junctions apparently.

    Yup. Dropped the OH to the Luas this morning for the 05:55 tram and he didn't get a seat. It had filled before it got to Belgard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    i suspect that's an 'it depends' scenario. sandyford luas stop to stephen's green is 9.4km by bike, which would take most people 25 minutes or more depending on fitness.
    it is (or was) 22 minutes on the luas, based on my experience of doing that trip several years ago - but that doesn't count waiting time.

    Or walking time at the both stops


  • Registered Users Posts: 953 ✭✭✭ heffo500


    Would it not have made better sense to have an underground in a loop from Heuston and connecting to Connolly Station, Busaras and on south side pass near Grand Canal Dock & St. Stephen's green? Similar to the Circle line in London. Then have the trams finish at a station of the underground instead of them weaving through the city slowly so Red Line ends at Heuston and Green line maybe ends at Camden Street?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,435 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    machaseh wrote: »
    Not yet. But they are building an enormous campus with shops, more offices and residential apartments at Brides glen, as well as various other construction work on the southern portion of the green line.

    Within about 5 years from now, we are certainly going to need full LUAS capacity between brides glen and sandyfort. They will need to order new trams and build an extra track or two at the brides glen terminus (shouldn't be that hard to do honestly).

    Third platform would deliver nothing. Having 3 trams in B Glen together is pointless. You can operate a 2-3 minute service with two. Before LCC opened it was a case of one in, one out at SSG and rarely were two platforms occupied for more than a minute.

    Fleet and driver resources are main reasons freq is lower beyond Sandyford and chances are an updated service review hasn't been carried out given the major changes in last few years.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭ LollipopJimmy


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    Fleet and driver resources are main reasons freq is lower beyond Sandyford and chances are an updated service review hasn't been carried out given the major changes in last few years.

    Actually one of their reasons for delays in the last wee while has been 'operational reasons' which I take means they are short of drivers. I used to take the first Luas to Bluebell in the mornings and it often didn't show or would show way early so I ended using different methods to get there which caused me hassle.


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