IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

wrangler · 07-12-2018 11:04am

Reggie. wrote: »

Not really I know many dairy farmers around you who teasgac are telling to expand as they have too much silage it SR is too low. They are refusing as they say it makes no sense but the issue is constantly pushed. Alot of lads levelling off at 100 cows

I think you're cleverer than that, you look for advice to maximise your farm ''to make two blades of grass grow where one grew before'' you don't want a consultant that tells you you're doing wonderful and do nothing. I know the banter that goes on, people have to take responsibility for their own decisions.
As for your next post, BPMs policy is what I've been preaching here for years against. huge criticism, so it'll be interesting to see if I was right.
After witholding cattle here for 3 weeks in 2000, it's a bit disappointing to see them backing away from doing it now.
That's the only difference between IFA and them/
You don't just write a list and give it to the Government, IFA have had grading and trim monitorng brought up at every Beef Forum and it's only considered now......that's your public service for you now, and who's getting the ****e thrown at them now because of it and BASE prices smart alec post which are worse.
Is it any wonder I rant about PS.
WON'T DO THIS CROWD A BIT OF HARM TO BE DRAGGED INTO THE REAL WORLD

greysides · 07-12-2018 11:18am

Cool your heels, Folks. I'm enforcing a pause.

greysides · 07-12-2018 9:35pm

Re-opened.
Keep cool. Keep it civil. Avoid using terminology that will unnecessarily wind up others.
If this is hard to grasp I can arrange some free time for study.

MeTheMan · 07-12-2018 10:34pm

Would someone please think of the sheep farmers!!

wrangler · 07-12-2018 10:58pm

MeTheMan wrote: »

Would someone please think of the sheep farmers!!

Sheep is a good news story at the moment

Bass Reeves · 08-12-2018 12:44am

People wonder why beef farmers have a disdain for the IFA and are angry with them. Mind you it is not just beef farmers but most drystock farmers Over the last twenty years and especially over the last 10 in area's of better land beef farming is gone part time. Instead of working with these farmers IFA has resisted this change. They failed to see that for most full time drystock farming achieving a realistic scale was impossible. They abandoned all these farmers and you had the debacle during the last CAP reforms with the General Secretary threatening those that wanted reform and rebalancing of payments. He threatened them with regionalization so as to protect payments to farmers on better land. As well you had the inequity that any farmer with a PAYE job was not entitled to serve as an IFA officier. It seemed a kind of attitude of we will take your money but keep you mouth shut, go into the corner and take what crumbs we give you off the table.

When the debacle of IFA pay came along these farmers felt even more let down. It was particular galling for those in the lower margin area of beef where the IFA could collect leavies 2-3 times on the same animal while only collecting once on more profitable systems such as Milk, white meat and grain. So some of these farmers voted with there pockets and stopped paying leavies. However IFA has still not responded to there anger it has just shoved it head deeper in the sand and ignored it. IFA has as good as lobbied against producer groups, and has allowed over the last 10 years schemes like REPS into unviable schemes for smaller farmers while this money has funneled it way into larger farmers pockets. It has got to the stage where those in designated area's such SAC's, Natura and Hen harrier land have to jump through hoops to collect a few hundred euro while those with larger land banks can collect 4-5K with minimum effort. As well those with lower payments see the department allowed to cut these payments by more though rigid enforcement of rules. On top of all that over the last 2-3 years we see micky mouse schemes set up and the main benificiry is Teagasc and consultants. There answer to all this was a Save the Sucker's campaign to throw more money into Larry pocket.

I see the Beefplan group as having problems they seem to have no clear direction. As other say 82 point of action is about 70 too many. While I applaud there integrity and willingness to put there head above the parapet I fear they fail to understand the economics of the beef game. All they can really do for the beef sector is change policy and regulation. I think too many do not under what producer groups as advocated by the EU about 3 years ago now was supposed to achieve. Mainly forward pricing and access for all farmers to the same prices across the sector. This over time would lift all beef prices as the lowest priced beef dictates the price of all beef and for that matter lamb and white meat prices. This and forcing government to get the NASI to certify grading machines along with monitor and trim would start to stop the sharp practices and cute hoorism with in the sector. The idea that you can change price by stopping cattle going into factories is childish the same as chaining trolley's and blocking supermarket ailes in Ireland which accounts for 5-7% of out total market.

However as well farmers have to understand if you are not farming at a profit already nothing any organisation can do will change that. All you can do is reduce scale to reduce losses, farm the payments and or change your system. For the last ten years Teagasc and the Rag were on about the top 10% of these drystock farmers and how we all need to achieve this. But we have seen two drystock project farms failing at the first hurdle of running a high cost system. The Tullamore one lost money before land rental and labour payments were paid for so much for efficiency.

So where to from here I am not really sure. All I know is that the IFA will lobby against my interest's so I will not support them. It is too intertwined with the Department, Teagasc and with the present system. It will again lobby against any radical changes in the BPS next year. It will lobby for actions that will mainly help retired farmers more than active farmers. It will act more in the interest of larger feedlot operation rather than the smaller operators. So sorry if it loses power and influence I for one will not worry too much.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 8:45am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

People wonder why beef farmers have a disdain for the IFA and are angry with them. Mind you it is not just beef farmers but most drystock farmers Over the last twenty years and especially over the last 10 in area's of better land beef farming is gone part time. Instead of working with these farmers IFA has resisted this change. They failed to see that for most full time drystock farming achieving a realistic scale was impossible. They abandoned all these farmers and you had the debacle during the last CAP reforms with the General Secretary threatening those that wanted reform and rebalancing of payments. He threatened them with regionalization so as to protect payments to farmers on better land. As well you had the inequity that any farmer with a PAYE job was not entitled to serve as an IFA officier. It seemed a kind of attitude of we will take your money but keep you mouth shut, go into the corner and take what crumbs we give you off the table.

When the debacle of IFA pay came along these farmers felt even more let down. It was particular galling for those in the lower margin area of beef where the IFA could collect leavies 2-3 times on the same animal while only collecting once on more profitable systems such as Milk, white meat and grain. So some of these farmers voted with there pockets and stopped paying leavies. However IFA has still not responded to there anger it has just shoved it head deeper in the sand and ignored it. IFA has as good as lobbied against producer groups, and has allowed over the last 10 years schemes like REPS into unviable schemes for smaller farmers while this money has funneled it way into larger farmers pockets. It has got to the stage where those in designated area's such SAC's, Natura and Hen harrier land have to jump through hoops to collect a few hundred euro while those with larger land banks can collect 4-5K with minimum effort. As well those with lower payments see the department allowed to cut these payments by more though rigid enforcement of rules. On top of all that over the last 2-3 years we see micky mouse schemes set up and the main benificiry is Teagasc and consultants. There answer to all this was a Save the Sucker's campaign to throw more money into Larry pocket.

I see the Beefplan group as having problems they seem to have no clear direction. As other say 82 point of action is about 70 too many. While I applaud there integrity and willingness to put there head above the parapet I fear they fail to understand the economics of the beef game. All they can really do for the beef sector is change policy and regulation. I think too many do not under what producer groups as advocated by the EU about 3 years ago now was supposed to achieve. Mainly forward pricing and access for all farmers to the same prices across the sector. This over time would lift all beef prices as the lowest priced beef dictates the price of all beef and for that matter lamb and white meat prices. This and forcing government to get the NASI to certify grading machines along with monitor and trim would start to stop the sharp practices and cute hoorism with in the sector. The idea that you can change price by stopping cattle going into factories is childish the same as chaining trolley's and blocking supermarket ailes in Ireland which accounts for 5-7% of out total market.

However as well farmers have to understand if you are not farming at a profit already nothing any organisation can do will change that. All you can do is reduce scale to reduce losses, farm the payments and or change your system. For the last ten years Teagasc and the Rag were on about the top 10% of these drystock farmers and how we all need to achieve this. But we have seen two drystock project farms failing at the first hurdle of running a high cost system. The Tullamore one lost money before land rental and labour payments were paid for so much for efficiency.

So where to from here I am not really sure. All I know is that the IFA will lobby against my interest's so I will not support them. It is too intertwined with the Department, Teagasc and with the present system. It will again lobby against any radical changes in the BPS next year. It will lobby for actions that will mainly help retired farmers more than active farmers. It will act more in the interest of larger feedlot operation rather than the smaller operators. So sorry if it loses power and influence I for one will not worry too much.

I won't be checking out your facts but twenty years ago our county sec was a teacher and National livestock commitee had a postman. Time constraints would probably stop them from taking the chair
The make up of commitees will determine what IFA lobby for and rightly so as they cover a broad no of enterprises. Who ever works for farmers will have to be available to all agri related departments. they always look for input and advice from the farm organisation.
No doubt if the money keeps coming, IFA will keep going, members are entitled to representation and while farmers aren't prepared to strike, a lobby group is all they can be, as I said before the publics service only moving on the grading and trim now after five plus years lobbying is an example, it took three years to get the sheep welfare scheme.
Whatever organisation is the flavour of the day, You're better off in the tent than pissing in, as you'd only be pissing on your foot

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:02am

have to say that offering farmers €40/cow sets the level of respect that PS have for farmer.
Two golfers were out playing golf once, At the end of the round the cute hoor says, I've to go to the car will you tip the caddys.
In the bar afterwards the cute hoor says, did you tip the caddies, other guy says '' I did, I gave mine €20 and I gave yours 50c''
Cute hoor says ''what did you do that for'', other guy says ''If I gave him nothing, he'd say you forgot, but by giving 50c he'd know you were a mean bastard''

coolshannagh28 · 08-12-2018 11:15am

wrangler wrote: »

have to say that offering farmers €40/cow sets the level of respect that PS have for farmer.
Two golfers were out playing golf once, At the end of the round the cute hoor says, I've to go to the car will you tip the caddys.
In the bar afterwards the cute hoor says, did you tip the caddies, other guy says '' I did, I gave mine €20 and I gave yours 50c''
Cute hoor says ''what did you do that for'', other guy says ''If I gave him nothing, he'd say you forgot, but by giving 50c he'd know you were a mean bastard''

You hit the nail on the head , €40 is an insult as are the other schemes , we have social engineering at work here and until we radicalise like the French we are wasting our time , they have maintained and increased their subsidy for suckler farmers .
Our last two ministers and PS are aligned with the industry not farmers and as has been pointed out ad infinitum , the IFA represents too many interests ; the beef plan movement may be able to give a voice to farmers in the beef sector.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:23am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head , €40 is an insult as are the other schemes , we have social engineering at work here and until we radicalise like the French we are wasting our time , they have maintained and increased their subsidy for suckler farmers .
Our last two ministers and PS are aligned with the industry not farmers and as has been pointed out ad infinitum , the IFA represents too many interests ; the beef plan movement may be able to give a voice to farmers in the beef sector.

I haven't been in any schemes since REPs, that is apart from KT and in that one only because it was looking like there'd be no discussion groups outside of it

Reggie. · 08-12-2018 11:24am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head , €40 is an insult as are the other schemes , we have social engineering at work here and until we radicalise like the French we are wasting our time , they have maintained and increased their subsidy for suckler farmers .
Our last two ministers and PS are aligned with the industry not farmers and as has been pointed out ad infinitum , the IFA represents too many interests ; the beef plan movement may be able to give a voice to farmers in the beef sector.

I say give them a chance. If they succeed well and good if they fail then it's gonna be a dairy only country going forward it seems

CloughCasey1 · 08-12-2018 11:28am

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head , €40 is an insult as are the other schemes , we have social engineering at work here and until we radicalise like the French we are wasting our time , they have maintained and increased their subsidy for suckler farmers .
Our last two ministers and PS are aligned with the industry not farmers and as has been pointed out ad infinitum , the IFA represents too many interests ; the beef plan movement may be able to give a voice to farmers in the beef sector.

Yes the IFA represents and is tied in more with everything that comes after the farmer. There is a massive disconnect there and the majority of farmers dont feel that the IFA is a voice for them. I think the "F" should be removed from IFA. They can can call themselves the IAIA (Irish Agri Industries Association).

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:30am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

People wonder why beef farmers have a disdain for the IFA and are angry with them. Mind you it is not just beef farmers but most drystock farmers Over the last twenty years and especially over the last 10 in area's of better land beef farming is gone part time. Instead of working with these farmers IFA has resisted this change. They failed to see that for most full time drystock farming achieving a realistic scale was impossible. They abandoned all these farmers and you had the debacle during the last CAP reforms with the General Secretary threatening those that wanted reform and rebalancing of payments. He threatened them with regionalization so as to protect payments to farmers on better land. As well you had the inequity that any farmer with a PAYE job was not entitled to serve as an IFA officier. It seemed a kind of attitude of we will take your money but keep you mouth shut, go into the corner and take what crumbs we give you off the table.

When the debacle of IFA pay came along these farmers felt even more let down. It was particular galling for those in the lower margin area of beef where the IFA could collect leavies 2-3 times on the same animal while only collecting once on more profitable systems such as Milk, white meat and grain. So some of these farmers voted with there pockets and stopped paying leavies. However IFA has still not responded to there anger it has just shoved it head deeper in the sand and ignored it. IFA has as good as lobbied against producer groups, and has allowed over the last 10 years schemes like REPS into unviable schemes for smaller farmers while this money has funneled it way into larger farmers pockets. It has got to the stage where those in designated area's such SAC's, Natura and Hen harrier land have to jump through hoops to collect a few hundred euro while those with larger land banks can collect 4-5K with minimum effort. As well those with lower payments see the department allowed to cut these payments by more though rigid enforcement of rules. On top of all that over the last 2-3 years we see micky mouse schemes set up and the main benificiry is Teagasc and consultants. There answer to all this was a Save the Sucker's campaign to throw more money into Larry pocket.

I see the Beefplan group as having problems they seem to have no clear direction. As other say 82 point of action is about 70 too many. While I applaud there integrity and willingness to put there head above the parapet I fear they fail to understand the economics of the beef game. All they can really do for the beef sector is change policy and regulation. I think too many do not under what producer groups as advocated by the EU about 3 years ago now was supposed to achieve. Mainly forward pricing and access for all farmers to the same prices across the sector. This over time would lift all beef prices as the lowest priced beef dictates the price of all beef and for that matter lamb and white meat prices. This and forcing government to get the NASI to certify grading machines along with monitor and trim would start to stop the sharp practices and cute hoorism with in the sector. The idea that you can change price by stopping cattle going into factories is childish the same as chaining trolley's and blocking supermarket ailes in Ireland which accounts for 5-7% of out total market.

However as well farmers have to understand if you are not farming at a profit already nothing any organisation can do will change that. All you can do is reduce scale to reduce losses, farm the payments and or change your system. For the last ten years Teagasc and the Rag were on about the top 10% of these drystock farmers and how we all need to achieve this. But we have seen two drystock project farms failing at the first hurdle of running a high cost system. The Tullamore one lost money before land rental and labour payments were paid for so much for efficiency.

So where to from here I am not really sure. All I know is that the IFA will lobby against my interest's so I will not support them. It is too intertwined with the Department, Teagasc and with the present system. It will again lobby against any radical changes in the BPS next year. It will lobby for actions that will mainly help retired farmers more than active farmers. It will act more in the interest of larger feedlot operation rather than the smaller operators. So sorry if it loses power and influence I for one will not worry too much.

We've got huge support from FBD and Farmers Journal for our lamb group, IFA will help anyone with starting a group if farmers just bother.
Supermarket protests seemed to work for dairy farmers, It's all you can do, Like Cough casey says ''where's your proposals''

CloughCasey1 · 08-12-2018 11:33am

wrangler wrote: »

We've got huge support from FBD and Farmers Journal for our lamb group, IFA will help anyone with starting a group if farmers just bother

Right. So we employ the association that are in cahoots with the industry that we are at loggerheads with.

Bass Reeves · 08-12-2018 11:36am

wrangler wrote: »

I won't be checking out your facts but twenty years ago our county sec was a teacher and National livestock commitee had a postman. Time constraints would probably stop them from taking the chair
The make up of commitees will determine what IFA lobby for and rightly so as they cover a broad no of enterprises. Who ever works for farmers will have to be available to all agri related departments. they always look for input and advice from the farm organisation.
No doubt if the money keeps coming, IFA will keep going, members are entitled to representation and while farmers aren't prepared to strike, a lobby group is all they can be, as I said before the publics service only moving on the grading and trim now after five plus years lobbying is an example, it took three years to get the sheep welfare scheme.
Whatever organisation is the flavour of the day, You're better off in the tent than pissing in, as you'd only be pissing on your foot

About 3 years ago a postman I think from from Roscommon was stopped from contesting the county chair. On one hand Wrangler you complain that farmers will not support the organisation and will not get involved within IFA structures and on the other hand you are using excuses here as to disenfranchise about what is now over 50% of farmers.

The present structures do not just disenfranchise those working it also prevents a substandical number other drystock getting involved. Any drystock farmers that is in the store to finish market again is virtually excluded as he needs to be in the mart 2-3 days a weeks to carry on his enterprise. A fulltime suckler or sheep farmers may not have the same time pressures. All this adds to the disconnect between the organisation and a large section of the drystock sector.

This gives too much influence to feedlot operators and those within sectors that may be able to schedule there work around present involvment rules.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:41am

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Yes the IFA represents and is tied in more with everything that comes after the farmer. There is a massive disconnect there and the majority of farmers dont feel that the IFA is a voice for them. I think the "F" should be removed from IFA. They can can call themselves the IAIA (Irish Agri Industries Association).

If you think your crowd w[ill achieve anything without talking to factories, government and department you're only on an ego trip.
Sad really

Mod: Naughty, naughty. Heed my last warning please.

Bass Reeves · 08-12-2018 11:47am

wrangler wrote: »

We've got huge support from FBD and Farmers Journal for our lamb group, IFA will help anyone with starting a group if farmers just bother.
Supermarket protests seemed to work for dairy farmers, It's all you can do, Like Cough casey says ''where's your proposals''

Again you do not understand the purpose of producer groups as advocated by the EU........or else you are deliberating muddying the water as is IFA policy. As I have pointed out just a few week's ago A former IFA President was advcoting against any move against the present arrangement have with processors

My proposals

Producer Groups with only 3ish group as proposed buy the EU with beef trade carried out between processors and farmers through these groups and no select group of a few hundred farmers as lobbied for by the IFA

Grading to be certified by the NSAI

Movement on EU funded schemes to reverse the amount of funding leakage to consultants and other organisations.

After those are moved other structural reforms can be looked at.

CloughCasey1 · 08-12-2018 11:55am

wrangler wrote: »

If you think your crowd will achieve anything without talking to factories, government and department you're only on an ego trip.
Sad really

No we will achieve nothing without dialog with the processors. But we do not trust the IFA to do our talking for us. As Bass said above a "FORMER" IFA president spoke out recently against any change to the current set up with the factories. Think about it for a second.....why would he bother his hole opening his mouth without a little nudge from his old buddies. "Will ya tell those idiot farmers to back off ffs. I can feel the grip of my boot loosening from their throats" "heres a few bob for your trouble "

.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:59am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

About 3 years ago a postman I think from from Roscommon was stopped from contesting the county chair. On one hand Wrangler you complain that farmers will not support the organisation and will not get involved within IFA structures and on the other hand you are using excuses here as to disenfranchise about what is now over 50% of farmers.

The present structures do not just disenfranchise those working it also prevents a substandical number other drystock getting involved. Any drystock farmers that is in the store to finish market again is virtually excluded as he needs to be in the mart 2-3 days a weeks to carry on his enterprise. A fulltime suckler or sheep farmers may not have the same time pressures. All this adds to the disconnect between the organisation and a large section of the drystock sector.

This gives too much influence to feedlot operators and those within sectors that may be able to schedule there work around present involvement rules.

Yea and I advised a guy here not to go for County Chair here because your life is not your own, and anything you're dragged out to in the county is not allowable for expenses and also wouldn't be fair to your employer, But I don't know any rule to that effect, maybe there is one. But I didn't stop him.....thankless job any way as you can see.
How do I disenfarnchise farmers from going, farmers don't want to do it full stop..isn't it the same in all organisation, too many prepared to stand back.
Feedlot operators are customers too.
Excuses for not supporting is no good to anyone, And not supporting and then criticising those that are there is lower than low and there's plenty of that going on. If I'm not satisfied with a service, I don't pay, simples

wrangler · 08-12-2018 12:10pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Again you do not understand the purpose of producer groups as advocated by the EU........or else you are deliberating muddying the water as is IFA policy. As I have pointed out just a few week's ago A former IFA President was advcoting against any move against the present arrangement have with processors

My proposals

Producer Groups with only 3ish group as proposed buy the EU with beef trade carried out between processors and farmers through these groups and no select group of a few hundred farmers as lobbied for by the IFA

Grading to be certified by the NSAI

Movement on EU funded schemes to reverse the amount of funding leakage to consultants and other organisations.

After those are moved other structural reforms can be looked at.

What's this with former presidents, people move on, even when I was in IFA I didn't agree with all their Policies but when you went into meetings you had to fly the flag, Former livestock Chairmen are now milking cows, At this stage they've done their best both inside and outside the farm gate to get a viable income out of drystock and are now moving on
If I was asked I'd say my farm has no problem with factories and never had.

CloughCasey1 · 08-12-2018 12:13pm

wrangler wrote: »

What's this with former presidents, people move on, even when I was in IFA I didn't agree with all their Policies but when you went into meetings you had to fly the flag, Former livestock Chairmen are now milking cows, At this stage they've done their best both inside and outside the farm gate to get a viable income out of drystock and are now moving on
If I was asked I'd say my farm has no problem with factories and never had.

Sure a man with your standing would never have any issues with thw factories. Its only the rest of us peasants that get rode LR&C.

Mod:Playing the man....

wrangler · 08-12-2018 12:20pm

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Sure a man with your standing would never have any issues with thw factories. Its only the rest of us peasants that get rode LR&C.

Maybe I changed to sheep in time, but we're going to larry now, you tell me he's the worst of the worst.....

Willfarman · 08-12-2018 2:09pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

wrangler wrote: »

We've got huge support from FBD and Farmers Journal for our lamb group, IFA will help anyone with starting a group if farmers just bother.
Supermarket protests seemed to work for dairy farmers, It's all you can do, Like Cough casey says ''where's your proposals''

Again you do not understand the purpose of producer groups as advocated by the EU........or else you are deliberating muddying the water as is IFA policy. As I have pointed out just a few week's ago A former IFA President was advcoting against any move against the present arrangement have with processors

My proposals

Producer Groups with only 3ish group as proposed buy the EU with beef trade carried out between processors and farmers through these groups and no select group of a few hundred farmers as lobbied for by the IFA

Grading to be certified by the NSAI

Movement on EU funded schemes to reverse the amount of funding leakage to consultants and other organisations.

After those are moved other structural reforms can be looked at.

On the ball as always Bass.

early_riser · 08-12-2018 2:22pm

wrangler wrote: »

Maybe I changed to sheep in time, but we're going to larry now, you tell me he's the worst of the worst.....

Your in a group with large selling power, icm have the lowest quotes every week for the ordinary farmer since larry took over. Beef needs producer groups that can do the same as your lamb group with selling power

wrangler · 08-12-2018 2:48pm

early_riser wrote: »

Your in a group with large selling power, icm have the lowest quotes every week for the ordinary farmer since larry took over. Beef needs producer groups that can do the same as your lamb group with selling power

They were the lowest quotes always, we disregarded them from our deal years ago

kk.man · 08-12-2018 8:56pm

Each of you have valid points.

However there is no doubt both the IFA and the Factories have let down the livestock Farmer in recent times.

wrangler · 08-12-2018 9:34pm

Willfarman wrote: »

On the ball as always Bass.

I actually meant what his proposals on how to obtain it, We know what everyone wants.
His proposal on producer group is aspirational for a country where price fixing is illegal.
The coordinator in an all Ireland producer group wouldn't be a mth in the job before he'd be accused of being in someones pocket. Better left with a nice local commitee

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:30pm

early_riser wrote: »

Your in a group with large selling power, icm have the lowest quotes every week for the ordinary farmer since larry took over. Beef needs producer groups that can do the same as your lamb group with selling power

It's not without work and the support of farmers producing a quality product

Our lamb group.
https://offalylamb.ie/

Muckit · 08-12-2018 11:50pm

Ya oul turncoat!! Aren't you a westmeath man??!!

alps · 08-12-2018 11:50pm

wrangler wrote: »

It's not without work and the support of farmers producing a quality product

Our lamb group.
https://offalylamb.ie/

Very impressive

wrangler · 08-12-2018 11:56pm

Muckit wrote: »

Ya oul turncoat!! Aren't you a westmeath man??!!

It'd take the full website to put up all the counties that we have suppliers,
Just shows you though it started as a early lamb group selling 26000 lambs, it takes the whole year to get 26000 lambs now

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 12:19am

wrangler wrote: »

I actually meant what his proposals on how to obtain it, We know what everyone wants.
His proposal on producer group is aspirational for a country where price fixing is illegal.
The coordinator in an all Ireland producer group wouldn't be a mth in the job before he'd be accused of being in someones pocket. Better left with a nice local commitee

Again you are incorrect. I have explained this numerous time to you but you keep coming back with this incorrect interpretation of producer groups. Producer groups were proposed by the EU commission to counter the scale in balance between farmers, processors and retailers. EU law supercedes Irish Law as the department of Justice found out again last week in the Graham Dwyer case. Therefore Irish competition law would not come into play. But Irish legislation has to be enacted to allow them. There is no price fixing as there would be 3-4 large producer groups just like there are 3-4 large processors.

What could not happen is what happens where selected feedlot's get access to contracts and forward pricing. Producer groups would negotiate these contracts and allow all members access. What would happen is that on for example Monday morning contracts for cattle to be delivered for a particular factory or group might be issued for the 2nd week in January with a base price quote. Farmers could then decide to take up the price or not.

However contracts for forward supply maybe form mid March or even for May/June could also be available. When these contracts filled the new contract could be at a lower or higher price. And yes there would still be winners and losers but it would stop some of the market manipulation and in time force up beef prices. As well if a producer group set up a premium brand they would have more control over it. Not like the AA and HE brands which were hijacked by the processor after being set up by breeder's groups.

It is interesting as well to see it was the EU Competition Authority that put manners on the Irish Insurance industry with it raids this year after we were told for years that there was nothing to see there. IMO it may only be a matter of time before we see the EU Competition Authority again carry out actions in Ireland as the can see how ineffective the Irish one is

wrangler · 09-12-2018 1:01am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Again you are incorrect. I have explained this numerous time to you but you keep coming back with this incorrect interpretation of producer groups. Producer groups were proposed by the EU commission to counter the scale in balance between farmers, processors and retailers. EU law supercedes Irish Law as the department of Justice found out again last week in the Graham Dwyer case. Therefore Irish competition law would not come into play. But Irish legislation has to be enacted to allow them. There is no price fixing as there would be 3-4 large producer groups just like there are 3-4 large processors.

What could not happen is what happens where selected feedlot's get access to contracts and forward pricing. Producer groups would negotiate these contracts and allow all members access. What would happen is that on for example Monday morning contracts for cattle to be delivered for a particular factory or group might be issued for the 2nd week in January with a base price quote. Farmers could then decide to take up the price or not.

However contracts for forward supply maybe form mid March or even for May/June could also be available. When these contracts filled the new contract could be at a lower or higher price. And yes there would still be winners and losers but it would stop some of the market manipulation and in time force up beef prices. As well if a producer group set up a premium brand they would have more control over it. Not like the AA and HE brands which were hijacked by the processor after being set up by breeder's groups.

It is interesting as well to see it was the EU Competition Authority that put manners on the Irish Insurance industry with it raids this year after we were told for years that there was nothing to see there. IMO it may only be a matter of time before we see the EU Competition Authority again carry out actions in Ireland as the can see how ineffective the Irish one is

Comp auth is too effective, hint is in the name Consumer Protection.
As far as I know the IFA brought the factories to the attention of the EU, if it's not true it's not my lie.
That producer group plan won't work, Hard to see how you can get extra for consistant inspec quality when they're lumped in with the rest of the countries stock. bad stock from our group gets a warning.
Even the BPM has referred to groups like ours lately. That EU idea is little better than whats going on at the moment, I'm sure factories would give a quote for next march today if you wanted it but it'd be poor.They'd include a much bigger margin for error than if they were quoting on the first of march, they'd have to.
Doesn't matter who is put in charge of selling cattle for us, they'll be sh..e and in the factories pocket within weeks according to the'' barstool experts'', It can't work.
And no, I'm not against producer groups and I'm in IFA

Bass Reeves · 09-12-2018 1:08pm

wrangler wrote: »

Comp auth is too effective, hint is in the name Consumer Protection.
As far as I know the IFA brought the factories to the attention of the EU, if it's not true it's not my lie.
That producer group plan won't work, Hard to see how you can get extra for consistant inspec quality when they're lumped in with the rest of the countries stock. bad stock from our group gets a warning.
Even the BPM has referred to groups like ours lately. That EU idea is little better than whats going on at the moment, I'm sure factories would give a quote for next march today if you wanted it but it'd be poor.They'd include a much bigger margin for error than if they were quoting on the first of march, they'd have to.
Doesn't matter who is put in charge of selling cattle for us, they'll be sh..e and in the factories pocket within weeks according to the'' barstool experts'', It can't work.
And no, I'm not against producer groups and I'm in IFA

Again your assumptions are incorrect. The processors control the trade because through there agents, access to the AIM and through feedlots they control the trade. With producer groups as a go between processors would no longer have access to the information coming from agents. You assumption that processors would give sh!te quotes for supply in 10-12 weeks time.

There are certain times of year supply is tight. Processors use Feedlot contracted cattle to control supply at this time of year. To access feedlot cattle processors would have to forward price cattle but these prices would be available to all farmers not a select few feedlots. As well if supply is better than expected they use these cattle to force down prices across the sector. As forward pricing crept in it would become the norm and lads could make business decision's on this information. For instance take the situation at present where processors are backing up young bulls if these were contracted in they would have to be taken rather than used as a tool to force down general beef prices

In the USA processors cannot own, operate or control feedlots. Yes it is a different market but at present using hormones there beef price is only 7c/kg behind ours. As for you constant harping on about the Competition Authority being effective you are totally incorrect. It is incapable of doing it job as shown by the Topaz debacle about 10 years ago and other than frying a few small fish like the IFA it has failed completely in Ireland. As I pointed out it was the EU CA that took on the Irish Insurance Industry after out own CA had the attitude of ''nothing to see here''.

wrangler · 09-12-2018 1:26pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Again your assumptions are incorrect. The processors control the trade because through there agents, access to the AIM and through feedlots they control the trade. With producer groups as a go between processors would no longer have access to the information coming from agents. You assumption that processors would give sh!te quotes for supply in 10-12 weeks time.

There are certain times of year supply is tight. Processors use Feedlot contracted cattle to control supply at this time of year. To access feedlot cattle processors would have to forward price cattle but these prices would be available to all farmers not a select few feedlots. As well if supply is better than expected they use these cattle to force down prices across the sector. As forward pricing crept in it would become the norm and lads could make business decision's on this information. For instance take the situation at present where processors are backing up young bulls if these were contracted in they would have to be taken rather than used as a tool to force down general beef prices

In the USA processors cannot own, operate or control feedlots. Yes it is a different market but at present using hormones there beef price is only 7c/kg behind ours. As for you constant harping on about the Competition Authority being effective you are totally incorrect. It is incapable of doing it job as shown by the Topaz debacle about 10 years ago and other than frying a few small fish like the IFA it has failed completely in Ireland. As I pointed out it was the EU CA that took on the Irish Insurance Industry after out own CA had the attitude of ''nothing to see here''.

Don't know if they're effective or not, but they're effective against farmers.
so as far as I'm concerned they're too effective. It's like the inland revenue..ie Public service screwing private enterprise
At least France and spain have factory feedlots according to this discussion on Facebook so must be alright in EU.

Base price · 20-02-2019 12:10am

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

wrangler · 20-02-2019 1:27am

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

Public service again, There'll be no accountability and no one will lose their job

Base price · 20-02-2019 9:46am

wrangler wrote: »

Public service again, There'll be no accountability and no one will lose their job

Were the factories penalised and the farmers compensated. There is no indication from the article.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 10:56am

Base price wrote: »

Were the factories penalised and the farmers compensated. There is no indication from the article.

Did they even report it to anyone until now. I can't understand how people tolerate the carry on of the public service, they are destroying this country.
I see that Britain are going to replace Irish beef with brazilian after Brexit,
John walsh from ICM said last night that if brexit happens they physically can't get enough ferry space to Europe for their fridges from Rosslare to Europe, they're trying to Block book them now, apparently even if there was twice as many ferries there'd still be queues back to Tullamore

Willfarman · 20-02-2019 11:12am

There should be recourse to having carcasses independly regraded when a farmer is being fleeced. This was a major blunder when the ifa done this deal with the processors with no mandate.

The blank refusal by the ifa and ifj to acknowledge the figures that proved the greater tonnage of beef (dairy x) is being cheapened because their cash cow is the suckler variety.
The penny hasn’t dropped that cheapening the greater tonnage cheapens all beef.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:24am

Willfarman wrote: »

There should be recourse to having carcasses independly regraded when a farmer is being fleeced. This was a major blunder when the ifa done this deal with the processors with no mandate.

The blank refusal by the ifa and ifj to acknowledge the figures that proved the greater tonnage of beef (dairy x) is being cheapened because their cash cow is the suckler variety.
The penny hasn’t dropped that cheapening the greater tonnage cheapens all beef.

Do you not think that based on Meat yield that dairy cross is too dear compared to continentals.

Don't really understand your post any way,

alps · 20-02-2019 11:28am

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

Would be interesting if any of the machines were faulty in the farmers favour...

theaceofspies · 20-02-2019 8:52pm

The first casualty of Brexit will be the IFA.
The saddles of gold redundancy packages are already being prepared.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 9:08pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

The first casualty of Brexit will be the IFA.
The saddles of gold redundancy packages are already being prepared.

Feck, I left too early.
I see BPM got the usual attendence at a beef farmer protest,
The more things change the more they stay the same eh

TalkingBull · 20-02-2019 9:24pm

Base price wrote: »

Grading machines found to be working outside the rules of their operation - as if we didn't already know :rolleyes:
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/21-beef-grading-machines-shut-down-after-unannounced-inspections/

-"found to be working outside of the allowed tolerance", how much outside of allowed tolerances...5% 10%???
and how many head of cattle passed through said machines?

theaceofspies · 20-02-2019 9:32pm

wrangler wrote: »

Feck, I left too early.
I see BPM got the usual attendence at a beef farmer protest,
The more things change the more they stay the same eh

Wrangler, you might have 'left' the IFA, but the IFA never left you.

Willfarman · 20-02-2019 10:41pm

wrangler wrote: »

Do you not think that based on Meat yield that dairy cross is too dear compared to continentals.

Don't really understand your post any way,

I most certainly don’t believe that at all. It’s a drum that the ifa beats to keep the coffers full of coins from the suckler producers but it isn’t the case. The British supermarket trade is the most important and highest priced for the processors and dairy cross angus and Hereford cattle fit the specs better than any other.

Having had square dairy cross and even suckler bred qa Hereford and angus cattle fall through the trap doors of o- grade and 4+ Resulting in cow Price and then the only recourse open to me is being trying to plead with a belligerent procurement manager for the 28 cent a kg loss (6 cent from o= + 12cent qa + 10 cent breed bonus) margin on the animal.
The slight of hand on the o= to o- is blatant robbery on a massive scale due to the volume of cattle involved every day.
We need an appeals process.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:11pm

Willfarman wrote: »

I most certainly don’t believe that at all. It’s a drum that the ifa beats to keep the coffers full of coins from the suckler producers but it isn’t the case. The British supermarket trade is the most important and highest priced for the processors and dairy cross angus and Hereford cattle fit the specs better than any other.

Having had square dairy cross and even suckler bred qa Hereford and angus cattle fall through the trap doors of o- grade and 4+ Resulting in cow Price and then the only recourse open to me is being trying to plead with a belligerent procurement manager for the 28 cent a kg loss (6 cent from o= + 12cent qa + 10 cent breed bonus) margin on the animal.
The slight of hand on the o= to o- is blatant robbery on a massive scale due to the volume of cattle involved every day.
We need an appeals process.

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

coolshannagh28 · 20-02-2019 11:15pm

wrangler wrote: »

And what are you going to do if they don't want to give an appeals process......., withdraw supplies,
Time to call a spade a spade here, Farmers won't do what the nurses did.
Stand up for themselves, whimpering and blaming joe healy isn't going to cut it.
No point in saying I want I want and not prepared to back it up,
I'm sick of telling that there's no support.
It is as it is, even BPM is able to do nothing

Is Liam Doran at a loose end these days ?

wrangler · 20-02-2019 11:25pm

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Is Liam Doran at a loose end these days ?

It was the beligerance of the nurses delivered that result fair dues to them, anyone could've led them

IFA and Factory Bitching thread.

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